I was reading the responses to Active-New-Order-Mormon-Saint's post: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,459897,459914#msg-459914

and was wondering, is the lds church at a tipping point?

They seem to be presenting mormon lite to the public, but are tightening the reins with the faithful. They may parade the token black, gay or successful woman, but it's always pray, pay, (pay more) and obey. Get on that hamster wheel and go faster and clean the toilets while you're at it.

You have old white guys in the leadership that are from a different century. Even if they see what is going on around them, can they make sense of it? Are they just surrounded by Yes men? Do you think women have any input? Will we see a young prophet, say 30 or 40 years old, anytime soon? What about a non American? Someone of color?

I went inactive mainly from burnout, especially after the church came out with the statement, 'we are not a social club'. Sorry, but many people join churches for the social aspects. I gather that wards with low attendance numbers get less money, and with less money, they do less and lose even more members. Seems like a vicious downward spiral. They have their strongholds in UT and the Western US. What about other countries?

I have no doubt the lds church will survive. It has the money. I don't see it being a global giant. It may modernize and change just as society does, but will it be in 10 years, 50, 100? Your ideas?

Unfortunately, the morg does have more money than many small countries. It's ironic that they do not help the world with their cash, but they would rather help themselves to a cushy retirement. I do think that the high-ups are aware that their revenues are declining (how could they not notice) but they are willing to perpetuate the lie until it doesn't pay out.

I wonder why it is so important to the mormons that mitt becomes the next president. What on earth would they hope to gain from a mormon in the white house? Perhaps they crave acceptance from the rest of the world and this would give them that...or not.

I think the mormon church will be around as long as there are people who would rather obey than think for themselves.

Mormons think that Jesus is coming back any minute now and the world as we know it will end. Mitt's in there to save us from, uh... Satan, and the Constitution will "hang by a thread" and he will save it. Woohoo. Go Mitt!

It's not the memers themselves that want a Mormon President.

It's the LDS hierarchy that wants it. They want to be treated with more respect and not lose as many members as they have in recent years.

Somehow, they probably thought it would work. But it's backfiring. People are learning more reasons to not like Mormonism every day.

You're right. Mitt does not engender respect. Quite the opposite. Journalists are having a field day, and many are scratching their heads trying to figure out Mitt's bizarre thought processes.

My dad is a rather hardcore TBM with prior "upper level" callings. I heard him talking about not liking or wanting Romney as prez with my equally self-righteous TBM brother about a month ago. I'm wondering how common this is among the active members? There's something they don't like about him. I didn't ask because I didn't want to get sucked into the conversation but it made me curious. Anyone else have any thoughts on a possible why? My original thought was maybe because I know Mitt hasn't always voted conservative on every topic but maybe also because he hasn't been super vocal about his beliefs? I'm wondering if that's the real reason my EXTREME TBM dad isn't pushing for his election?

I was looking in to Romney's story about the dog on top of the car. With the kids and luggage inside the car, there was no room for the dog. Also, the dog got sick, and the kids could see the puke coming down the windows. The family found a hose and washed down the car and the dog. Then put the dog back up on the roof and continued the trip.

Why not put the luggage on top of the car, and if the dog got sick, why put it back on the roof? Is there a meanness under the fake facade? Indifference? Somethings off.

Mormonism doesn't have the passage of time like many other religions. The secret/sacred argument doesn't work well in the internet age. The information is out there. Others are talking about it even if the church is not. This means others are defining the issue and the church is playing defense. Look at most scandals. The coverup is always worse than the actual scandal.

Because Mitt is an idiot!

Mormon or not, Romney just doesn't connect with people. He is just not someone people can warm up to. His flip-flopping does not help any.

Yeah, like Obama hasn't flip flopped er, I mean "evolved" on any of his positions...

The problem isn't with changing your positions from time to time, it with changing every position over and over again. It make Mitt look like he don't have any deeply held beliefs of any kind.

I think they are at a tipping point and that's due more to the internet than just about any other factor.

I don't think they're going away any time soon, but I do believe they are not growing nearly as fast and that more people are leaving due to disbelief than in any time in their history. Add that to smaller family sizes and growth of the internet into third world countries and I think we're looking at a very different church in the future.

Hardcore TBMs are not going to like Mitt, because he is a little too liberal for them.

It's the mainstream, average, wishy-washy Mormons who are in the church for a. family reasons b. money c. cowardice d. apathy who are more likely to vote for Mitt, because they think he makes them look good due to his wealth and material success.

If you measure the growth of the church as the percentage of a country's population with their bum on an LDS meetinghouse seat on Sundays, then the church is declining in many countries outside of the US.

The church is declining in Australia, New Zealand and Japan and stagnant or close to declining in Canada and the UK.
http://simonsoutherton.blogspot.com.au/2012_02_01_archive.html

Just go to the pro-LDS website Cumorah.com and look at the International LDS database. Check out the countries you are interested in. The growth in the number of church units has stopped in many countries. About the only place it is growing is Africa and the US.

GOD Help Us if that idiot gets voted in. And NOT the God from the planet Kolob!

Because he looks like and acts like a chimpanzee.

Simon in Oz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
About the only place it is growing is Africa and the US.

After the statistical report from conference, I am not so sure the church IS growing in the US. The global growth rate in church units is now about 0.5%. That's way slower than the global population growth rate. The US population is growing at a rate of about 0.96%.

Some feel that having a Mormon president will give the church legitimacy - will make people stop laughing at them and give them the respect they are desperate for.

Others Mormons realize that the church is in for some hard times once the media spotlight is on them. One of my most head-in-the-sand Mormon friends even commented that she thought if Romney got the nomination the church would be in a lot of trouble "in for a rough ride" and that most of her friends don't see it coming.

So many Mormons just hate Obama that they want Romney in for no other reason than they think he's the best chance to oust Obama. I think it's Obama's best chance at a win, personally.

it's gotta be the Dumbo ears.

Right?

... like good little sheeple.

I think many religions believe it is their destiny to have their own exclusive powerful influence over humankind, and having a Mormon president will only fuel their own "Manifest Destiny."

Yes.

Their desire for power coupled with obliviousness to the simple fact that the more people know about Mormonism the less they like about it.

The GA's were shocked to hear from their new PR department that polls showed the majority of Americans thought Mormonism was "weird."

Never mind that they campaigned for years on being a "peculiar people." They think they can just pull the normal switch and people will agree like bobble head dolls--because that 's what Mormons do. Agree with whatever malarcky they hand out.

I have been predicting the tipping point would be 2012 because the press finally has a legitimate reason to do some digging into Joseph Smith and the whole story. And so does the general public. You can say what you want that Mormonism is "off the table." That's like saying sex is off the table--it positively does not stop missionaries from thinking about it.

The church is also unaware that they themselves are pretentious and out of touch. Since they are all that way, those holders of the Keys of the Almighty Melchisedek Priesthood, it doesn't seem strange to to them.

They have no idea what it's like to live and think like a man among men, no better no worse. They have always thought of themselves as carrying the additional burden of the restoration on their shoulders. God saw to it that they were BIC or converted from a needed minority, and he saw to it that they found or were fed the gospel, because God has important work for them to do in first class, traveling by limousine, like Jesus would were he here today.

They don't realize that their ambition for political power, like Joseph Smith's, will be the end of them. Oh, yes, they will dwindle as they whittle away their believes like a Mersa patient. They will amputate the Book of Mormon (already this has begun as they tell the people it's greatness is that it says what the Bible says). They will cauterize, then remove the Pearl of Great Price, saying, "It isn't necessary for salvation, really, but it's ok to have on your shelf of plain and precious truths."

Garments will become optional, not required. Women will be called on missions and given the "authority" to preach the gospel, thinking this will make people believe progress is being made.

The gerontocracy will pass away and the next generation will move up, already old themselves. Already issuing their sacred disclaimers and plausible deniabilities.

The Mormon Church will then begin a huge push to emphasize the Ten Commandments and drift away from the 13 Articles of Faith. they will lay claim to Old Fashioned Christianity in the traditions of the conservative forefathers and a new religious sect will emerge-- a chimera of patriotism and fundamental Christianity. One whose prevailing sentiment of sacred patriotism will ignite the country into parades and almost sainthood status for signers of the Declaration of Independence.

The Founding Fathers will take the place of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young as the Lions of Judah. Mormons will claim they are keeping and preserving the flame of American identity as they memorize the sanitized history of the godly men who founded this country as a Christian nation, Under God, dammit, or we will blow your head off.

This is what we are tipping toward, in my opinion. Black and white and red, white and blue.

Anagrammy

"Mormons will claim they are keeping and preserving the flame of American identity as they memorize the sanitized history of the godly men who founded this country as a Christian nation, Under God ..."


Actually, Mormons have been implicitly making that claim for some time.

The whole infantile scenario in which the Founding Fathers prostrate themselves before Wilford Woodruff, begging to be mormonized is the foundation on which the remaining LDS tradition of nonsense rests, including "The Constitution was ordained by God" (the mormon god, of course), and "If you only knew how Mormons love the Constitution ..." etc.



Then of course, we have the White Horse Prophesy. It's "not doctrinal", it's "folklore", it's "legend", it's blah, blah, blah.

Whatever; it is a motivating force in the LDS community that underpins their insular tradition as the "keeper of the flame".*


*A flame that they did not light, that they do not own, and that they were not/are not entrusted to carry.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2012 08:50PM by 3X.

Twenty years after the acceptance of gay marriage by the mainstream, the mo will accept gay marriage as well. Then a moprofit will answer a pointed question in a interview with, "I don't know that we ever taught that gay marriage was unacceptable. Why just last Saturday morning I was in the slc temple and performed three such sealings."

The tipping point will happen when members start to think more for themselves. It will happen when parents routinely sit in on bishop interviews of their underage children. When they routinely counsel their kids that masturbation is not only acceptable but is indeed healthy. When they decide for themselves what is healthy to put in their body and what is not. When they start to wear colorful shirts, stylish pants suits, and bare legs. When they tell their mission-age sons to stay in school instead of "donating" two years of their precious time. When their daughters consider men other than RM's for their husbands. When Mormon girls enjoy an inclusive wedding with all the trimmings, and save the temple sealing for later. When those same girls tell the bishop that they would never consider excluding their parents from their own weddings. When they decide that if the Mormon church needs more cash, the prophet should petition God directly. When they put 8% of their earnings into an IRA and give 2% to the church. When they insist that an honest church should open its books and do more for the community. When they tell the bishop that the concept of "callings" is done with and volunteerism is in. When they quit continually pushing their religion on others. When they are friendly to their neighbors whether they are Mormon or not. When they quit pestering people who are inactive. When they insist that the church reasonably provide for activities that build friendship and community. When they insist that their leaders quit lying to them.

It will happen when average Mormons realize that church authorities don't know anything more than they do.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2012 08:45PM by summer.

very well put, summer...well done...

And take back that power, the church would be very different. Demand an accounting for money given. The 12 would have to or risk losing the steady income. They won't ex thousands of members if they would make this demand.

It’ll start with the younger generation.

In facts it’s already happening.

As a group they’re more oriented towards a culture of instant gratification. The Church already knows they’re losing the younger generations faster than they can birth them.

They’re more tech savvy and have spent years on the Internet. As they mature the Church will see that they have neither the patience nor tolerance to spend a life time slaving to the unrealistic expectations and financial demands of the Church with nothing but a far off slippery promise of eternal exaltation.

The Church has nothing of value to offer them when they ask…..“What’s in it for me?”

Which was great when I was a teen in the 70s - roadshows, G&G balls (mind out of the gutter please), mutual activity nights, etc.

Any more it's just drudgery and time and money - at least that's my perspective outside looking in.

It just doesn't seem fun at all any more. (Which, I suppose, is good, because it places into stark clarity the fact that the org is ran by a bunch of impotent, shriveled-up, staid, ashen, insufferably boring white guys. And of course that it has no direct conduit to sky daddy.)

( I know this is a dated pop-culture reference, byt I always think of the Skeksis from the Dark Crystal when I think of the Fifteen.)

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ75-0p78GDIHa7_Iv6PL3OqTzGlYdgeuRDFjmkSBxSEOcZKjh-

I think just being a little more liberal in giving some of the tithing money back to the members would go a long way. They are already doing it in singles wards I think to try and stop the huge loss of young people. There seems to be a lot more money available to do whatever activities people want. I remember in Elder's Quorum we were talking about going paintballing and the president said it was 15 dollars and everyone should bring money. Then the bishop said no don't worry about it the ward will cover it. Then there is always money to have a dinner once a month and treats after the 3 hour block a couple times a month.

As far as "yes men," I worked with a man at the church office building who had been promoted to executive director of a department. This meant that he worked directly with the general authorities, including the big 15.

In meetings with the brethren, he would always give his opinions and advice, as one would expect to do if one is paid for one's expertise in a given field.

He didn't last very long in that position before he was demoted. The member of the 12 who demoted him told him he was too difficult to work with.

When this man asked what he meant, the apostle said, "You're always saying no or telling us why our ideas won't work. We just can't work with someone who is so contrarian."

He had thought he was doing a good job advising them and bringing his expertise to bear, but they wanted someone to do what they wanted without question. So, they replaced him with a rather oily schmoozer.

hmmmm...I thought as much -- interesting

A Stake President of mine once related the tale of when he was first appointed. An Apostle rang him one evening to chat about the role of a Stake President and the needs for the Stake etc. During the conversation the Apostle, obviously not liking what the newly appointed SP had in mind said "let me give you some advice.." and went on to give advice. The SP thanked him and said he would think about what the Apistle had said.
The Apostle said in a quiet voice (and the SP wrote the exact words down in his daily journal)"Let me tell you that when an Apostle gives you advice, it's not advice nor counsel for you to go away and consider. It's a directive from God."

The SP took that to mean "just do what I said"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2012 06:49AM by Stumbling.

I think the church is usually about 20 years behind the times and that will be it's major problem.

Things are moving too fast now. It used to be that being 20 years behind the rest of the world wasn't such a big deal, but it very much is now.

I think that due to the age of the leaders of the church, combined with the nature of how new leaders are chosen, this will always be it's problem. They will always have leaders that are set in the "old ways" and way behind the times. They will not understand the internet age and they will not be flexible enough to make the changes required quick enough. Most of them will refuse to listen to PR departments and other groups trying to get them to see that the old ways are killing them.

Instead they will continue to lock down until it's too late, they will see that they are pushing their members out the door and then will try to band aid things... But the changes will be forced and either come to quickly, forcing people to question the number of changes, or won't be enough and people will continue to leave as they are.

All that being said, I think the corporation that is the church will always be around in one form or another. I think that is the direction that the "church" will go. It will evolve into a "christian based corporation" providing services like the Food stores, beef and other farm produced goods, and entertainment though Bonneville corp, including the fabulous "Mo-Tab" choir.

For a while there will be a few hard line members that refuse to go and will try to keep their kids in the church, but even that will dwindle until it's just a corp. Temples will be sold off to other churches or converted for other uses... Wouldn't it be something if they were rented out as Marriage locations!

All of this will take time... Yes the church is bleeding members, but they do have a lot of money and there are still a lot of members. I think there will be more wards combined and fewer temples opened until the church realizes that they simply can't afford to keep them open then they will quietly come up with a Temple decommission plan and they will go away... The hint will be when they stop announcing anything about the number of Temples in conference. It just won't be mentioned. The church never admits it's failures after all...

At a tipping point?

You tell me. The Bishop in our neighborhood counts all of the neighbors in our sub-division as part of his flock. Catholics, Jews, Baptists, Atheists, they are all included in his stats.

Talk about fake numbers!

The church isn't tipping anywhere. It will not fade. May adjust some like it always has. The core tbm group will carry it regardless of the internet. Too many of them simply don't care what info is put in front of them. It will be fascinating to watch how it evolves though.