I am not a scientist, but at moments like this I wish I were. Are there any scientists or science-hobbiests who could help me with some claims coming out of Salt Lake City, Utah?

"ASEA: Advancing Life" is a "dietary supplement" that looks to be, from my untrained mind, nothing more than water and salt, except that it comes with a price tag of $150 for 4 32fl. oz. bottles. The marketing scheme is MLM. Like the Book of Mormon, it comes with a story and a series of claims, of course. Here's the claim on the bottle:

"ASEA is a proprietary blend of naturally occuring reactive molecules derived from a patented redox balanced process. The unique process rearranges the constituent components into a beneficial mixture that is critical to proper balanced cellular chemistry, enabling the immune system to funciton at its optimal level."

The ingredients are listed exactly as follows: Distilled Water, Sodium Chloride.

My question is, is it possible to "rearrange the constituent components" --H2O and NaCl-- to make a more "beneficial mixture"? Am I missing something? Or is this as obviously silly as Kolub behind the Sun?

What's facinating is the salesman. My guy is a RM, middle-aged lawyer with too many kids and not enough clients. His pitch is perfect, bearing down with a quick intelligence and a gregarious personality. But his sales training is bare none the best in the world. If you can go door to door in a foreign country selling a book and a story for %10 of your life's income then selling reconstituted salt water for $1.17 an oz is easy-peasy.

Am I missing something?

You're not missing anything. They're not the first people to use a scam like this. About 20 years ago, some Utah company was making "laundry balls." They were plastic balls filled with liquid, and the pitch they used was that it used "ions" to clean the laundry, eliminating the need for detergent. Plenty of people bought them. They contained distilled water and nothing else. It seems that if you use the word "ion," it makes it extra special and, of course, beyond the understanding of the consumer who is stupid enough to fall for the trick.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2010 01:31PM by Troy.

I always get terribly annoyed when "crystals" appear in psuedoscientific mumbo-jumbo. In reality crystals are any substances where the atoms are arranged in perfect (or nearly perfect) geometric patterns. There's no magical energy that can be harvested from crystals, atleast not without actually destroying that perfect geometric pattern that made it a crystal in the first place.

It's a basic law of chemistry and physics that energy can only be lost or retrieved from matter when that matter is itself changing: Radioactive substances for example are atoms spontaneusly falling apart into smaller atoms and because the resulting smaller atoms don't need as much energy to keep themselves together as the original atom needed the surplus energy are emitted in the form of radioactivity. And in chemical reactions elements are rearranged into different molecules releasing or absorbing energy in the process (usually in less harmful forms like heat or light).

Crystals, being by definition stable and unwilling to rearrange themselves into other forms of matter, are actually the last place to look for energy. There are many useful applications of crystals but magic isn't one of them.

ROFL My mom was given one of those laundry balls to try out about 20 years ago...it was a complete failure. No different than just simply washing your clothes in the washer without any detergent...oh wait...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2010 03:00PM by Thithter Thim.

We had some of those laundry balls.

The trick is, you had to use them with hot water. DUHR.

I got sick of telling my family that hot water washes anyway.

This is all very interesting and entertaining. My wife and I are laughing at how creative everyone is in their criticisms. And having been involved in another MLM for many years, we can appreciate many of the comments.

I have purchased this "magic water" for my child who has a rare form of cancer. Here's why:

Another young person in town had stage 4 melanoma and started to drink ASEA and spray it on a lump (one of seven more in her body) that appeared after her 2nd operation. A few short weeks later, the lump appeared to have almost completely disappeared. Her family also then pursued some other homipathic nutritional methods and her last PET scan showed her body to be currently cancer free.

Although this is not "scientific" evidence it's probably a type of "clinical" evidence. We are going to see if it helps. We are also incorporating some anti oxident type suppliments that help the immune system. No harm in trying vs. surgery that will have a significant impact on the rest of his life.

Several things jump out at me about your post that make me question how you evaluate cause and effect relationships.

First of all, tons of cancer goes into remission. Some comes back, some doesn't. Do you have any stats on how many used that product and still got cancer reoccuring?

Second, you didn't say what kind of cancer your child has. All cancer is not the same obviously- it does not respond the same way. Different methods of treatment have differing degrees of success. Melanoma is very different than leukemia. Even the types of leukemia are very different in prognosis.

Third, trying hokey things can make the situation worse (first do no harm!). At least with this product, you probably would not cause harm. We are talking saline for cripes sake.

Fourth, the burden is on you to provide proof that (for example) the hand lotion with the scent of coconut chemical used over the lump was not the cause of the lump decreasing. Or the fact you were wearing brown socks. You would have to show an improvement over placebo levels with this type of melanoma and that product to even warrant any credibility. You would have to eliminate so many variables to isolate the effect of that particular product.

Fifth, you mentioned you were involved with a MLM for YEARS, which doesn't speak well of your ability to see them a mile away.

Lastly, I would like to say whatever tools you use to fight cancer are your choice. Desperation and hope when fighting a disease lead to all sorts of actions- some are very helpful no doubt. But you are vulnerable and (I'm guessing) not much of a scientist. Don't let anyone take advantage of you.

Best of luck with your child. Love and a positive attitude can go a long way when it comes to fighting a disease. I'm hoping for a great outcome for your family and your friend's family.

How about batshit insane?

Have you read anything about what homeopathy IS?

I'll try anything, if they'll take a bad check.

>"If you can go door to door in a foreign country selling a book and a story for %10 of your life's income then selling reconstituted salt water for $1.17 an oz is easy-peasy."

Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!

Thank you for all the responses.

So, can anyone tell me what exactly is wrong with the claim:

> "ASEA is a proprietary blend of naturally occuring
> reactive molecules derived from a patented redox
> balanced process. The unique process rearranges
> the constituent components into a beneficial
> mixture that is critical to proper balanced
> cellular chemistry, enabling the immune system to
> funciton at its optimal level."

I'm assuming that they could not claim a patent if they indeed did not have a patent. Also, is it true that no matter how uniquely one "rearranges the constituent components", at the end of the process, no matter how patented said process, one still ends up with salt water?

They say that the bigger the lie the easier it is to sell. I just can't get over the audacity of selling 128 ounces of water and salt for 150 bucks!

Seriously, someone, please tell me that I'm missing something. Can someone tell me that some magical electron transfer (redox) can actually rearrange sodium chloride and distilled water into a better, more balanced "proprietary" blend of water and salt. Please?

The product is salt water. There is no physical or chemical process that will change that into something else. These people are selling 128 oz. of salt water for $150. The thing is, there are people stupid enough to pay it. There always are.

For example see this story:
http://money.cnn.com/2010/09/27/news/companies/POM_Wonderful/index.htm?source=cnn_bin

Having just completed an intermediate science chemistry class I can tell you that the answer is "NO".

sorry

out

"wherein the cathode has a cylindrical, or flat (planar) shaped structure." could be the unique aspect of the process that warrants patenting (I'm just making an example here.)

In the end, it's salt water

It sounds like they run the salt water through a microwave thus rearranging the components. Pure MLM bs just like Xango, Noni Juice and all the rest of the miracle immune system recharging junk sold by Utah morons.

I actually drank a bottle of Xango once. No I didn't buy it, it was a gift. I was told that drinking it would "cure" RA. It didn't. I found it about as helpful as spraying WD40 on my swollen wrists. Yet another miracle "cure". Right up there with copper bracelets and all the rest.

It seems that desperate people will fall for nearly any scam. What amazes me is when people keep falling for them ie. maybe just 1 more bottle will do the trick.

I suppose Xango has some health benefits but then so does orange juice and it doesn't cost 30 buck a bottle.

Or at least they claim a patented process is involved, though they tell you essentially nothing about the process, nor whether the process is appropriately applied to the salt water, nor whether or when the patent was in effect. Lots of goofy stuff was patented in the late 1800s.

Laundry balls redux. Zip your pockets and run.

another hilarious example that I love to tell non-mos about...

Let me see if I can break it down for you. "Patented Redox Balanced Precess"? Let me see the patent, please.

A redox balanced process is a chemical reaction involving the oxidation of one element and the corresponding reduction of the other element. Simply put, "oxidation" and "reduction" in chemistry is the exchange of electrons. Upon completion of the reaction, the resulting compound is chemically stable at room temperature.elements that will chemically combine. Duh! That narrows it down to several trillion combinations or so!
Since salt is soluble in water, the combination of an appropriate amount of water (H2O) and salt (NaCl) will yield a "stable balanced mixture" containing hydrogen (H+) ions, oxygen (O-2) ions, sodium (Na+) ions and chlorine (Cl-) ions. This "unique process" has now "rearranged" salt and water into a "beneficial mixture" called a saline solution (or salt water).
Yes, the body requires a "proper balance" of this for "the immune system to function at its optimal level" but drinking salt water is probably not recommended by the medical community.

Twinkler, thank you and thank your chemist friend. Your post is exactly what I was looking for.

Now when Mr. "I'm a lawyer and you are not" starts speiling I'll have more confidence. Lawyers can beat you down with tone and verbiage alone, they make you give up just to have them shut up.

But salt water is salt water is salt water, just as I assumed.

Thank you everybody for the input. ASEA has been in business for only 6 months. I'm guessing it'll run through many of your extended families as well.

I mix up at home to clear out my sinuses. You can make a gallon of the stuff for the cost of a gallon of distilled water and a little canning salt.

What a rip off. Plus who needs to drink extra salt? Don't most of us already get too much in our diets? Doesn't sound too beneficial to me especially for someone with high blood pressure.

How do people get away with snake oil shams like this?

"ASEA is a proprietary blend" = We have a recipe that uses
"of naturally occurring" = ingredients found in nature
"reactive molecules" =
H20 is a reactive molecule, hydrogen reacted with oxygen. It is the universal solvent. Salt is a reactive molecule, sodium reacted with chlorine to create it.

"derived from a patented redox balanced process."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redox#Redox_reactions_in_biology

"The unique process rearranges the constituent components into a beneficial mixture that is critical to proper balanced cellular chemistry,"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt
"Sodium is one of the primary electrolytes in the body. All four cationic electrolytes (sodium, potassium, magnesium, and calcium) are available in unrefined salt, as are other vital minerals needed for optimal bodily function. Too much or too little salt in the diet can lead to muscle cramps, dizziness, or electrolyte disturbance, which can cause neurological problems, or death.[32] Drinking too much water, with insufficient salt intake, puts a person at risk of water intoxication (hyponatremia). Salt is sometimes used as a health aid, such as in treatment of dysautonomia.[33]"

"enabling the immune system to function at its optimal level."
Dehydration will definitely impact the immune systems ability to function at its optimal level.

So yeah, all of that could be completely true, and ASEA could be just salt water. Which is why they named it A SEA!!!

I like how they are calling ions reactive. Duh.

I am a scientist. My minor was in chemistry. I testify that this is junk science and LAME. It's salt water that apparently gets ionized (they know it gets ionized because they test it with florescence and real lab machines and tests!).

I like how they try to make it sound all scientific but they never identify the actual "reactive" molecules.

you totally nailed it, Twinkler.

Typical junk science and gullible people buying it.

What a scam. $100 for a month supply of multi-vitamins? Get outta town. But people would call in, in a panic if their reorder hadn't arrived "I need my vitamins now! I'm starting to feel sick cause I'm missing a dose" -No joke-

(loved that job though, it was fun and had so many perks)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2010 08:09AM by Thithter Thim.

My boyfriend bought the sales pitch from some lady-- thank god he didnt have the money on him to actually buy this salt water.

I just have to explain this to him now......
ha

THANKS

It is cheaper to buy Gatorade......LOL

There's a sucker born every minute!

A neighbor is a state chemist. I asked him and he looked at me strangely and asked, "how much does it cost? I wish I'd gotten inspired to sell salt water for that price. But I would've given people a break and sold it for half that much. Yes, tell the people on that board that it is nothing but salt water." So there you have it from an authority.

Well that is the very definition of money for old rope.

Put a pretty label on a bottle, allude to some newly developed or inspired knowledge and season with a few words you may remember from high school biology, and sell some dissolved salt for a staggering amount of money.

Whoever earns a living selling salt water deserves props. Perhaps they should start a religion?

Anyone want in on a new venture? Magic sugar water for $65 / 12 fl oz! It heals and everything.

through salt water, after which, they sell the salt water.



"G. 1 is a side view of an embodiment of the invention. It has a container 101, which holds a saline solution having a saline concentration of at least about 0.15% to 1.0% by weight. The container may be fitted with a lid 100. The container 101 has a cylindrical anode 101a and a surrounding concentric cylindrical cathode 101b positioned on its bottom 105. The anode 101a and cathode 101b are operably associated with a power supply 107. The power supply 107 provides a source of electrical current with an effective voltage of under 30 volts via wires 106 affixed to the anode 101a and a cathode 101b"

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20090110749#ixzz0hHUQniY6

from the actual patent that lulu shared:
Preferably, the electrolyzed saline solution is administered by injection, oral or anal ingestion, applied topically, used as a bath, applied in a wound dressing, or inhaled in atomized form.



Read more: http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20090110749#ixzz1PeLR1Uhp
ANAL INGESTION??? YEAH BABY GIVE ME AN ELECTROLYZED SALINE SOLUTION ENEMA!!
OY VAY!!
WHERE DO I SIGN UP??