I'm not sure if you'll see this or not, but whatever.

The archived post of your "second anointing" was a huge post for me.

After I had read that, I was so pissed off.

My entire life in the church, I had devoted myself to exaltation. It was the most important doctrine to me. It kept me in the church when I was disgusted with most everything else in the church especially the people.

I wanted godhood so badly, and was trying my best to simply "endure to the end" just for that ONE doctrine.

Your post about the second anointing shredded what little of a "testimony" I had left at the time. I saw the experience for what it truly was.

A metaphor for the "inner circle" of smiley glad hands posturing and positioning politically for favors by showing devotion and obedience above people and decency.

The church wasn't god's kingdom on earth. It was just like every other "good old boys' club" made by men who favor competition of a flawed ideal that destroys people in its insatiable wake.

You broke from that and reported the truth. That takes courage. Especially since the level of conviction that you had to display in order to be "trusted" to join the inner most inner circle of exclusivity would be profoundly deep.

As profound as leaving and having the courage to become a literal "son of perdition" to reject it all and exposing it publicly.

What I wanted to say was that the last two posts that you've put on the board broke my heart.

You KNEW Jeffery Holland. More than any of us. Enough to defend him against a board of strangers.

That post broke my heart because I could see that you really only THOUGHT you knew this man.

Your second post confirmed this. He was just like the rest of us figured. A guilter. A shamer at heart.

He doesn't weep for YOU. He weeps for the role of a man you once held. Not the person behind it. You are the same. You simply disagree on religion. And yet, this is everything to your friend.

You are completely invisible to him.

I'm sorry for that. You'll grieve that friendship. Just as others here on this board have grieved thousands of relationships of friends, spouses, family members.

People who only saw us as stalwart Mormons.

And nothing more.

Thank you for your courage of posting.

Was Anointed One the person who leaked the "second comforter" rites?

Did he have this done?

The church has gone from being about education, listen to the apostles, and prophet. Read church history. Glory of God is intelligence.....blah blah blah.

Nowdays, only the prophet speaks for the church. All previous leaders were misinformed, or spoke as men.

Why do we care who says what....it's only their opinion, and not the word of God.

How does the church justify having these useless dead weights around saying they are special witnesses of Christ. I guess as I read it truly is a "good old boys" club.

NO they only can speak as men, not speak as if Christ talks to them.

They love the adulation, the "Rock Star" status, but have no authority unless he says "thus sayeth the Lord" and only if it comes from Monson.

JRH, only has shown us that no one can have an opinion....especially himself. He couldn't answer, because he really has no convictions other than what he is allowed to say.

Anointed one, I used to respect JRH, loved his books, but you have shown more backbone, more integrity, and are being persecuted and chased away by those who claim they must have the truth because they were persecuted.

Thank you for helping us all to confirm our choice to get away from the circus.

According to the doctrine, everything is fair game afterwards right? So Jeff shouldn't feel upset if he believes.

Calling and election sure...even if you lose belief?

What exactly does it mean to you to deny the holy ghost? I've heard people say they think they are now a son of perdition because they left the church. I don't agree with that.

IMO, denying the holy ghost would be if God himself appeared to you and told you the Mormon church was THE church, then you left it. I've never met anyone who has met God face to face. Personally I don't think there is any such thing as a son of perdition.

I cut and pasted this from institute.lds.org

“All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 6:314).

end quote


My interpretation of this is that a son of perdition has to be a LIAR. He/she (are women even eligible?) to KNOW it's absolutely true and say it's not. In my opinion, a person who sincerely has lost faith, is NOT a son of perdition.

. . . . and now I'm feeling a bit odd because I feel like I've been arguing about fiction fantasy or something. These are ALL moot points because it's complete BS, all of it.

And the whole Sons of Perdition idea is concocted to scare people away from leaving, which is part of what makes the LDS church a destructive cult. People are AFRAID to leave. Even when they no longer believe, they feel like they have to be 100% sure or they are risking EVERYTHING in leaving. And it's hard to be 100% sure of ANYTHING.

I've heard it before, but thinking about it now - it's kind of saying that you have to see God and deny him to be a son of perdition, and then it says many apostates are in that position. So many of the apostates have actually seen God? And yet the President of the Church hasn't? Hmmmm....

Thank you, Raptor Jesus, for saying what many of us feel about AO. Brings to mind friendships that I grieved for when I resigned. But it has been into a beautiful, new, peaceful life I entered, and I wish the same to those that have taken a similar journey.

I whole heartedly second that.
Thank you, Annointed One.
Your post was the last one I read before I resigned.

Your courage is a beacon in the dark for some who are lost.
Truly, I thank you for helping to set me free.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2012 12:09AM by ambivalent exmo.

Anointed One:

I hope you are collecting all of your materials and documantation, plus the observations of so many other fellow travelers, so that you can publish a good book.

Before I went on my mission, Harold B. Lee addressed the Elders in the Assembly Room of the Salt Lake Temple. We were told that we could ask any questions about the endowment because we were in the Temple. One Elder asked if there was such a thing as the "Second Endowment" and Lee emphatically said "No!" He said this so strongly that I always assumed he truly meant it. It was as if the question itself shouldn't have come up in the first place.

It wasn't until I read your account all these years later that I realized that (then) "Apostle" Lee was lying.

You are doing more good than you will ever realize. I think your accounts need a more public airing. Please consider writing a book.

Maybe Lee didn't know, himself? How can you ever know what anyone in TSCC know, what with all the doublethink, retraction (and probably reinstitution), and secrets?

On an aside, if anointed one does put out a book, I want to know.

I was hoping against hope that he would have shown the kind of character you believed he had based on your years of friendship.

It may not be much consolation to you as you grieve this loss of a friend but you are the one who has character.

Thank you for sharing your story with us.

But, if you follow the one true Lord Raptor Jesus, he shall give you secret second, third and fourth anointings. Let us see Regular Jesus match that.

I don't know the Lord Raptor Jesus yet, being fresh blood and all. Can I take some missionary discussions? Seems like the way to go, with all the wonderful posts I've seen coming from that direction...

and almost missed out on reading that.

Just wanted to add my support for anointed one.

Exactly how I felt--thanks Raptor Jesus for saying exactly what so many of us were feeling

I saw this first hand when Mormon Royalty/ Rock Star "Elder' Marriott made a visit/ fireside speech at our Stake several years ago in Orlando.

Beforehand there was an invitation only buffet in the Relief Society room. All the Stake "big wigs" were there to meet their mega rich super star. A couple of Elders GUARDED the entrance to make sure the poor little average member didn't wander in.

A little old man.. maybe 80 or so, arrived to the fireside early and not knowing anything different tried to enter the holy sanctuary of the stake's elite. He was quietly but quickly led away... a poor confused look on this face.

I was embarrassed I attended.

simply sincere questions. You are clearly a man of integrity and if you can't ask a friend of yours in a leadership position questions like that then who can you ask? They don't deserve you, Annointed One. I have been thinking about Hollands' reply all day and it keeps coming back to: That is it? Is that all he's got? No answer for ANYTHING? His letter sounded a lot like a letter I got from a visiting teacher one time, although at least my visiting teacher invited me to a fireside about Book of Mormon archeology that was coming up. (I looked up the speaker at the fireside and he had an associates degree in Art). It was truly like you ripped open the curtain in the emerald city and saw the wizard frantically yanking at levers! That's ALL THEY GOT???? You are honestly searching for truth. What is wrong about that??? If we are supposed to not think for ourselves and just follow leaders, how is that different than the people who are following the FLDS prophets? They are obeying their leaders... They are following the prophets too! How on earth can the Mormon leaders ever get a temple recommend when it asks if they are honest with their fellow man? I wonder, did he actually say in words that the Book of Mormon is true or did he hedge a bit??? I recently was in a bible study group and when we went through the Old Testament it was rather depressing and shocking all the stuff that was in it. I couldn't believe it when the other members of the group said exactly what I was thinking with others nodding in agreement and adding their bit. I couldn't believe it that people were actually saying what they truly thought about what they were reading, and how that honesty would never fly in the mormon church! Thank you again AO!

Bluebonnet Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> It was truly like you ripped open the curtain in
> the emerald city and saw the wizard frantically
> yanking at levers! That's ALL THEY GOT????

That was my exact thought. It's like Dorothy ripped open the curtain, and got a severe spanking for having the temerity to even touch the curtain in the first place.

I've never had the misfortune or displeasure of knowing a GA personally except for a passing acquaintance with Bill Walker of the Seventy when we were both at Ricks in the 60's but it wold be difficult to deal with such a relationship once one knows the truth and then has to deal with the condescension from the GA...

I hope to meet you someday.

Holland knew AO would probably post his response to RFM, so he deliberately avoided giving him ammunition to be used against him. In addition, being that MANY disaffected former members would probably read his response, it appears he unwisely chose to guilt them all through his reply.

Holland's responses do NOT reflect a Christlike love. Perhaps he was offended and defensive about the "Second Anointing" post, or AO's letter to him, or both. But he could have and should have responded with much greater compassion and understanding. It appears he already deemed AO to be an enemy unworthy of a more positive exchange.

As an aside, and from another situation, I know that Holland will NOT do the right thing if it will reflect negatively on the Church. He has NO integrity in this regard.

AO, the love of the Church is MONEY, and they are getting hit in the coffers. The M.O. of the Church is to lie, and their lies have been exposed. Their desire is for power and praise, yet they are being trashed in the media. And their hidden things will come into panoramic view.

THERE IS A GOD -- AT WORK.