Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: Jesus Smith ( )
Date: May 27, 2012 08:03PM

I already posted some of this, but I think some of you might have the patience to check out this video if you haven't. It's a lecture by Lawrence Krauss entitled: 'A Universe From Nothing'

I have the ebook and am finishing it now. He's a great orator and writer, as well as a damn fine Physicist/Cosmologist.

http://youtu.be/7ImvlS8PLIo?t=2m7s


Summary:

(Note, I am an experimental/applied physicist, so I could have the following wrong. We already had a heated discussion on the "nothing" Krauss uses, elsewhere.)

What was before the Big Bang?

What made the Big Bang, universe and us?

By measuring the background microwave radiation from the big bang, cosmologists can go back in time to the point at which the universe was so hot, the radiation can no longer be measured. This is like a wall, blocking off "visibility" of the universe's space-time center. They can look for the wall all around the universe in each direction and determine the distances from us to build a map of the geometry of the universe. This geometry gives us the curvature of the entire universe.

That curvature tells us a very important result: that the universe is flat. A flat universe started, at the big bang, with a net energy of zero.

Zero total energy means the universe probably, very likely, started from nothing (complete emptiness), except the random virtual events of quantum/particle/energy fluctuations (still at net zero energy) around the zero point. In other words, a universe didn't need a creator. And before the big bang, there was nothing. That nothing is exactly what is needed to start the big bang. We came from nothing.

Nothing is the essential ingredient to everything.

That, and one other thing (not really discussed much by Lawrence Krauss), probablility. Nothing mixed with probability will always give something.


Now for my own thoughts:

The next question is, if everything we see and measure is from nothing, and probability is needed for something, where did probability come from?

You can't measure probability like radiation, mass, etc. And yet, probability is essentially omnipotent and omnipresent. It influences every event down to the most fundamental level (quantum). You can't stop it. You can't block it. You can't alter it. You can't catch it and hold it in your hand or your detector or your container. Probability isn't really something. It isn't exactly nothing, though. Probability is the guiding principle of everything in the universe, living or nonliving, near or far, big or small, now or anytime.

Before the big bang, there was probability. And nothing. . . .

In his book and in other interviews, however, Krauss tells us that you don't even have space-time or the current set of laws. So waiting is not really defined at that point. If I understand Krauss, Relativistic QM field theory is a result of the something from nothing big bang. And the only thing one needs then (not from Krauss) is probability. If you convolve (push together) two purely random (and infinite or finite) sets of possibilities (net-zero energy with possibility completely mixed randomly=nothing, not structure, not extant), that convolving of negative random possibilities and positive random possibilities will result in a convolution of probability in the same form we call today the Normal Distribution of probability theory. The possibility sets are like virtual "things" (fields, particles, etc) that don't exist but have the possibility to exist.

Now, I am not saying that math had to exist. Probability theory is our mathematical description of what happens in nature. Our observations of randomness can be explained by that theory. But the events and observations are not dependent on the math or the laws of physics (which are the models we use to describe them). And it is these kind of virtual events that can actually produce something when mixed. Like Krauss said, the net energy remains zero. But the rules of interaction between the negative and positive possibility sets did exist. That's the interesting part. (of course, I am outside of my expertise here, so I could be way off.)

Net zero energy producing something of apparent structure from probabilistic rules could appear strangely....like a virtual reality (net zero energy) predicated on rules (programming). Wala! it's the matrix.

Haha

Actually, I don't know. but it is strange.

Another interesting bit to come out in recent years:

Theoretical Physicist Brian Greene thinks we might be holograms.

" 3-D objects, even the ones that we’re familiar with — you and me and everything around us — these 3-D objects may indeed be describable by information on a 2-D surface that surrounds us, a surface that in some sense is at the edge of the universe. Now, this starts to sound like a hologram; a hologram is a thin 2-D piece of plastic which, when illuminated correctly, yields a realistic three-dimensional image. The idea is we may be that three-dimensional image of this more fundamental information on the 2-D surface that surrounds us.

"Now, let me just point out, this is a hard idea even for physicists who work on it every day to fully grasp. We’re still trying to really dot the i’s and cross the t’s and understand in detail what this would mean. But there are many who now take this idea very seriously, that we maybe a kind of holographic projection. "


http://www.wired.com/underwire/2012/05/geeks-guide-brian-greene/


If that were true, then the "afterlife" may be inside a blackhole (if I understood what wired was reporting on what Greene was saying, but I admit, I still don't quite get it, and I studied physics in grad school)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2012 08:08PM by Jesus Smith.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Don Bagley ( )
Date: May 27, 2012 08:33PM

The universe can be, and has been, thought of as an expanding balloon. The weird thing is that everything in the universe is on the skin of the balloon so that all the "air" inside and outside the balloon is "other" and not part of the universe.

This makes for a 2D reality. 3D is an illusion! Wait till the Mormons get a hold of this information. They'll try to use it back up their "great and secret show" theory. That is, everything's an illusion except for Mormonism. Wind 'em up and watch 'em go.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Nick Humphrey ( )
Date: August 24, 2012 09:14AM

"
Formation of the universe from nothing need not violate conservation of energy. The gravitational potential energy of a gravitational field is a negative energy. When all the gravitational potential energy is added to all the other energy in the universe, it might sum to zero (Guth 1997, 9-12,271-276; Tryon 1973).
"

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CF/CF101.html (you've already seen this on the other thread you mentioned, but i'll post it here for everyone else)

or does this article only apply to the universe as it is now?

also interesting, "the origin of it all":
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CE/CE440.html

"
Another possibility is that the universe is in an eternal cycle without beginning or end. Each big bang might end in a big crunch to start a new cycle (Steinhardt and Turok 2002) or at long intervals, our universe collides with a mirror universe, creating the universe anew (Seife 2002).
"

aren't holograms only perceived by our sense of sight? if we close our eyes and hold e.g. a baseball in our hand, isn't that a confirmation that it is 3D? (i sense i am going to get ripped to shreds here for this question =)

although being a hologram would seem to fit nicely with a flat universe, i would think.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 08/24/2012 09:32AM by Nick Humphrey.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: hitchhiker ( )
Date: August 24, 2012 09:26AM

Nice post Jesus Smith. Probability and nothing reminded me of a favorite book.

"Then, one day, a student who had been left to sweep up the lab after a particulary unsuccessful party found himself reasoning this way: If, he thought to himself, such a machine is a virtual impossibility, then it must logically be a finite improbability. So all I have to do in order to make one, is to work out exactly how improbable it is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give it a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn it on! He did this, and was rather startled to discover that he had managed to create the long sought after golden Infinite Improbability generater out of thin air."

"It startled him even more when just after he was awarded the Galactic Institute's Prize for Extreme Cleverness he got lynced by a rampaging mob of respectable physicists who had finally realized that the one thing they really couldn't stand was a smartass."

Douglas Adams , the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Jesus Smith ( )
Date: August 24, 2012 11:17AM

Raptor Jesus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> n/t


Especially you, Raptor. You are probably a program gone rogue.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: August 24, 2012 11:25AM


Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: August 24, 2012 12:22PM

Hi Jesus:

I have not listened to this Krauss lecture, but have read an article by him of the same name (as I recall). I am not a fan of Krauss, as I have said many times on this Board. In my view he not only is not a great writer or orator, his logic and overall knowledge of the relevant issues is way behind his anti-religious rhetoric. Anyway, here are my thoughts:

> That curvature tells us a very important result:
> that the universe is flat. A flat universe
> started, at the big bang, with a net energy of
> zero.

Of course, the key word here is "net" as in "net energy." One should always keep this in mind. I may have a zero "net income" on my tax return, but that does not mean I did not have gross income and expenses.

> Zero total energy means the universe probably,
> very likely, started from nothing (complete
> emptiness), except the random virtual events of
> quantum/particle/energy fluctuations (still at net
> zero energy) around the zero point.

The word "nothing" here is highly misleading. Net zero energy does not imply nothing, or complete "emptiness." Moreover, the stated exception is huge. Random virtual particles and event fluctuations around zero net energy is obviously not "nothing." You cannot define "nothing" as encompassing a substantive exception, and then announce, "See we don't need God." It is a magicians trick, and Krauss knows it.

> In other words, a universe didn't need a creator. And
> before the big bang, there was nothing. That
> nothing is exactly what is needed to start the big
> bang. We came from nothing.
>
> Nothing is the essential ingredient to
> everything.

This whole line of thinking is ridiculous.

> That, and one other thing (not really discussed
> much by Lawrence Krauss), probablility. Nothing
> mixed with probability will always give
> something.

This is also a mistake. Probability in physics is a mathematical assessment of the likelihood of future events. (as you know) It has no ontological status. Probability determinations no more create "something" (i.e. matter or energy) than a string of random numbers. Even in QM, the probability factors for "wave function collapse" or the generation of alternative universes, are still only mathematical assessments. The underlying quantum mechananisms, whether we are talking about quarks, bosons, or virtual particles, are separate from such mathematical assessments, even if do not fully understand how such mechanisms work.

> The next question is, if everything we see and
> measure is from nothing, and probability is needed
> for something, where did probability come from?

Probability did not come from anywhere, except the human mind. (Or the mind of God) The real question is where more general; why does the physical world confirm so closely with mathematical desciptions? To assert that mathematics or probability is itself part of the physical world is to engage is metaphysics.

> You can't measure probability like radiation,
> mass, etc. And yet, probability is essentially
> omnipotent and omnipresent. It influences every
> event down to the most fundamental level
> (quantum). You can't stop it. You can't block it.
> You can't alter it. You can't catch it and hold it
> in your hand or your detector or your container.
> Probability isn't really something. It isn't
> exactly nothing, though. Probability is the
> guiding principle of everything in the universe,
> living or nonliving, near or far, big or small,
> now or anytime.

Again. Probability does not "influence" anything. It does not have causal power. It does not have ontological status outside of mind. If it does, then you need to explain what it is, if not matter or energy. That is metaphysicals, and ant-science. Probability is omnipotent? and omnipresent? Simply absurd.

> Now, I am not saying that math had to exist.
> Probability theory is our mathematical description
> of what happens in nature. Our observations of
> randomness can be explained by that theory. But
> the events and observations are not dependent on
> the math or the laws of physics (which are the
> models we use to describe them).

Yes. Finally.

Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In


Screen Name: 
Your Email (optional): 
Subject: 
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically.
 **    **  **      **   *******   **     **  **       
  **  **   **  **  **  **     **  ***   ***  **       
   ****    **  **  **  **     **  **** ****  **       
    **     **  **  **   ********  ** *** **  **       
    **     **  **  **         **  **     **  **       
    **     **  **  **  **     **  **     **  **       
    **      ***  ***    *******   **     **  ********