--Nauvoo True Confessions: Joseph Smith Admits that the Book of Mormon Isn't True or Worth Further Effort--

Time, once again, to rock the wacky-religious world of the TBM faithful who secretly lurk here:

The Book of Mormon was so problematic for Joseph Smith that he wanted to dump it early on and, in fact, did--literally.
_____


--Joseph Smith Buries the Book of Mormon

Smith, when helping to lay a cornerstone for the Nauvoo House on 2 October 1841, approved the placement of an original Book of Mormon manuscript (composed mostly in the handwriting of Oliver Cowdery and appropriately written on foolscap paper) into the Nauvoo House cornerstone with the following send-off comment (made a short time earlier by Smith to another prominent Mormon leader):

"I have had trouble enough with this thing."

Amen, brother.

(see Ernest H. Taves, "Trouble Enough: Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon" [Buffalo, New York: Prometheus Books, 1984], p. 160)


Indeed, William Alexander Linn, in his book, "The Story of the Mormons: From the Date of Their Origin to the Year 1901" , sets the stage for Smith's deep-sixing of this supposed "sacred scripture":

"[P]roof [that] . . . a second [manuscript] copy [of the Book of Mormon] did exist [is found in the account of Ebenezer Robinson]. . . . Robinson, who was a leading man in the [Mormon] church from the time of its establishment in Ohio until Smith's death, says in his recollections that, when the people assembled on October 2, 1841, to lay the cornerstone of [the] Nauvoo House, Smith said he had a document to put into the cornerstone, and Robinson went with him to his house to procure it. Robinson's tory proceeds as follows:

"'He got a manuscript copy of the Book of Mormon and brought it into the room where we were standing and said, "I will examine to see if it is all here;" and as he did so I stood near him, at his left side, and saw distinctly the writing as he turned up the pages until he hastily went through the book and satisfied himself that it was all there, when he said, "I have had trouble enough with this thing;" which remark struck me with amazement, as I looked upon it as a sacred treasure."

(William Alexander Linn, "The Story of the Mormons: From the Date of Their Origin to the Year 1901" [New York, New York: The MacMillan Company, 1902], p. 44; original text at: "Google Books" link to the page at: http://books.google.com/books?id=QDdAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA44&lpg=PA44&dq=ebenezer+robinson+book+of+mormon+trouble+enough&source=bl&ots=H_Lur4vQE7&sig=NDY_hZzw7NSVqNMzIECTct11R-w&hl=en&ei=Sd1STvPVNOSDsgKbwtzwBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=ebenezer%20robinson%20book%20of%20mormon%20trouble%20enough&f=false)
_____


--Joseph Smith Admits He Made It All Up--

One shouldn't be surprised by Smith's abandonment of the so-called "keystone" of the Mormon religion; nor should one be surprised by Smith's utter disdain for what he regarded as the simple-minded stupidity of those who actually bought into his lies.

To be sure, Smith had a habit (about which he privately boasted to his friends) of making up stories about imaginary "golden Bibles," then playing it out even further for his incredulous associates when Smith discovered that they actually swallowed his tall tales hook, line and sinker.

Case in point, as one of Smith's close acquaintances, Peter Ingersoll, testified in an affidavit certified by a local judge:

"One day he [Joseph Smith] came and greeted me with a joyful countenance. Upon asking the cause of his unusual happiness, he replied in the following language, 'As I was passing, yesterday, across the woods, after a heavy shower of rain, I found, in a hollow, some beautiful white sand, that had been washed up by the water. I took off my frock, and tied up several quarts of it, and then went home.

"'On my entering the house, I found the family at the table eating dinner. They were all anxious to know the contents of my frock. At that moment, I happened to think of what I had heard about a history found in Canada, called the golden Bible; so I very gravely told them it was the golden Bible.

"'To my surprise, they were credulous enough to believe what I said. Accordingly I told them that I had received a commandment to let no one see it, for, says I, no man can see it with the naked eye and live. However, I offered to take out the book and show it to them, but they refuse to see it, and left the room.'

"Now, said Joe, 'I have got the damned fools fixed, and will carry out the fun.' Notwithstanding, he told me he had no such book and believed there never was any such book, yet, he told me that he actually went to Willard Chase, to get him to make a chest, in which he might deposit his golden Bible. But, as Chase would not do it, he made a box himself, of clapboards, and put it into a pillow case, and allowed people only to lift it, and feel of it through the case."

("Peter Ingersoll Statement on Joseph Smith, Jr.," sworn affidavit, Palymra, Wayne County, New York, 2 December 1833, affirmed as being truthful by Ingersoll under oath and in a personal appearance before Thomas P. Baldwin, Judge of Wayne County Court, 9 December 1833; for Ingersoll's entire affidavit, see: http://www.truthandgrace.com/StatementIngersoll1.htm)


*Rodger I Anderson, in his book "Jospeh Smith's New York Reputation Re-examined" (Salt Lake City, Utah: Signature Books, 1990), notes the following regarding certain noteworthy (and controversial) particulars of Ingersoll's affidavit:

--Ingersoll's assessment of Smith and his family reflected similiar conclusions from affidavits taken from several members of the Palymra community in which Smith lived:

"[Ex-Mormon and affidavit collector Philastus] Hurlburt's question, 'Was digging for money the general employment of the Smith family?,' repeated to each witness, would explain Peter Inersoll's 'The general employment of the family was digging for money' . . . "

Anderson notes that "[e]ven if Hurlbut did contribute to the style and structore of the affidavits, it does not necessarily follow that he 'contaminated' them by interpolation. Similarities such as those noted by [Mormon critics] may only mean that Hurlbut submitted the same questions to some of the parties involved." (p. 28)


--Ingersoll's statement was a sworn legal dodcument affirming to facts which Ingersoll asserted were true:

Notes Anderson, "Even if Hurlbut had written out some of the statements after interviewing those concerned, the individuals either signed the statements, thus affirming their supposed accuracy, or swore to the statements before a magistrate. For example, Peter Ingersoll appeared before Judge Thomas P. Baldwin 'and made oath according to law, to the truth of the above statement.'" (p. 29)


--Ingergoll's affidavit cannot be dismissed as completely non-evidentiary:

Anderson counters the argument from Mormon apologists that Ingersoll's testimmony deserves to be dismissed because it "consists not in observation, but supposed admissions in conversation," by noting that "[o]f these criticisms, some are based on entirely erroneous information and some reflect partial truth and partial error. But none justify [the] conclusion that the affidavits are essentially 'non-evidence.'" (p. 43)


--The larger content of Ingersoll's affidavit as described by Anderson:

"In his deposition, Ingersoll rehearses various efforts of the elder Smith to make him [Ingersoll] a money digger, recalls conversations with him about divination and money digging and relates an episode in which Joseph Smith, Sr., found some lost cows by means of a witch hazel stick. Ingersoll dismisses this later accomplishemtn as a trick to test his credibility.

"Ingersoll tells of being hired by Joseph Smith, Jr., to go with him to Pennsylvania to help move Smith's new wife Emma's furniture back to Manchester, describes an episode along the way in which Smith supposedly displayed some Yankee ingenuity to avoid paying a toll, repeats an alleged confession that the business of the gold plates was nothing more than a ruse to deceive his parents, recounts Smith's successful effort to get $50.00 from Martin Harris and narrates a number of other episodes said to have been drawn from his personal knowledge of the Smith family."

"According to Ingersoll, Smith told him that he had discovered some white sand that had been washed out after a storm. Impressed with the beauty and purity of the sand, Smith tied several quarts of it up in his farmer's smock and carried it home. His response when his parents expressed curiosity about what he had in his smock, according to Ingersoll, was '[I] happened to think of what I had heard about a history found in Canada, called the golden Bible; so I very gravely told them it was the golden Bible. To my surprise, they were credulous enough to believe what I said. Accordingly, I told them that I had received a commandment to let no one see it, for, says I, no man can see it with with the naked eye and live. However, I offered to take out the book and show it to them, but they refused to see it and left the room.' Now, said Joe, 'I have got the damned fools fixed and will carry out the fun.'"


--Anderson has doubts about the "white sand" story in several respects but concludes that it confirms, in the larger sense, important elements of Smith's questionable reputation and character:

"Of all the information volunteered by Hurlbut's witness, Ingersoll's story is the most dubious for a number of reasons.

"First, Ingersoll represents the incident as unpremeditated deception on Smith's part. Aside from all other considerations, there exists ample evidence that Smith had been talking about the gold plates some time before the date Ingersoll attaches to this prank.

"Second, Smith's known regard for his parents makes it unlikely that he would deceive them for the sheer fun of it, call them 'damned fools' and perpetrate the hoax for the rest of his life.

"Third, Ingersoll records that after this confession of duplicity he offered to loan Smith sufficient money to move to Pennsylvania, which is unlikely if Smith was, in fact, the knave Ingersoll knew him to be.

"Last--and perhaps the most signficant consideration--Pomeroy Tucker remembered that Ingersoll 'was at first inclined to put faith in his [Smith's] "Golden Bible" pretension.' If Tucker's statemnt can be trusted, it seems likely that Ingersoll created the story as a way of striking back at Smith for his own gullibility in swalling a story he later became convinced was a hoax."

Anderson suggests that the claim that Ingersoll may have "perjured" himself by "knowingly swearing to a lie" was "possible." Nonetheless, at the end of Ingersoll's sworn affidavit, Dufrey Chase (a local citizen who knew both Ingersoll and the Smith family) affirms in a statement dated 13 December 1833 the following: "I certify that I have been personally acquainted with Peter Ingersoll for a number of years and believe him to be a man of strict integrity, truth and veracity."


--Anderson notes that much of Ingersoll's affidavit rings true:

"The 'white sand' story casts a shadow of suspicion over Ingersoll's entire affidavit but it does not follow that every part of his statement is false.

"For instance, according to Ingersoll, Smith promised Isaac Hale 'to give up his old habits of digging for money and looking into stones' and gratefully accepted Hale's offer of financial support if Smith 'would move to Pennsylvania and work for a living.' According to Hale's independent account of the same conversation, 'Smith stated to me that he had give up what he called "glass-looking" and that he expected to work hard for a living and was willing to do so,' and Hale's son Alva remembered Smith as saying 'that he intended to quit the business (of peeping) and labor for his livelihood.'

"Ingersoll also stated that on this same occasion, Smith 'acknowledged he could not see in a stone now, nor ever could.' This was remembereed by Alva Hale, who quoted Smith as sayng 'that this "peeping" was all d--d nonsense. He (Smith) was deceived himself but did not intend to deceive others.'

"These parallels do not substantiate Ingersoll's 'white sand' story but they confirm that Smith publicly acknowledged his career as a 'glass looker' and money digger. . . .

"Other parts of Ingersoll's affidavit can also be independently confirmed.

"His claim that he was hired by Smith to go to Pennsylvania and move EWmma's furniture back to Manchester was confirmed by Isaac Hale; his account of Smith's unsuccessful attempt to get Willard Chase to make a box for the gold plates was confirmed by Chase; and his report that Smith approached Martin Harris with the remark, 'I had a comand to ask the first honest man I met for $50.00 in money, and he would let me have it' was confirmed by both Chase and Jesse Townsend. More significant that these confirmations, however, is his claim that Joseph Smith, Sr., possessed a magical rod. This is significant not only because many others mention the elder Smith's rod but also becuase it can now be shown that the report by no means originated with Ingeraoll or even the vitriolic editoirals of Abner Cole in 1831. . . . " (pp. 55-58, 61-62n, 70; for Ingersoll's full affidavit--which Anderson notes is "reproduced exactly as [it] appear[s] in the original published or unpublished sources, with the exception of arranging them either alphabetically or chronologically"--see pp. 134-139)

*****


Joseph Smith was not a believer in the Book of Mormon that he peddled as being divine. Pure and simple, he was a fraud and a conman. In his quieter moments, out of earshot of the blindly faithful, he admitted that faith-demoting fact.



Edited 11 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2012 07:19PM by steve benson.

Unfortunately, when something like this is presented to your average TBM, said TBM will immediately dismiss the statement as being incorrect, misquoted, or that the person swearing the statement was evil and had it out for ole' Joe.

This time tested, sure fire Mormon mental defense mechanism is nothing short of scary to me. May God continue to shower mankind with the enlightened frame of mind that is Mormonism.

I'm having a bit of trouble with Ingersoll's account, specifically that people felt it through a pillow case. Sand does not feel like gold plates.

I've read the report of Smith's comments about the Book of Mormon manuscript. I've thought the Book of Mormon was more Rigdon's doing than Smith's because it reflects Rigdon's theology. By contrast, the early "revelations" of the Doctrine and Covenants--before they were redacted--seem aimed at increasing Smith's position and power.

Ever been to fast and testimony meeting?

:)


Besides, Ingersoll's account does not say that Smith's family felt the sand through the frock.

Moreover, what Chase talks about in the Ingersoll account involves Smith's request that Chase build him a clapboard chest/box for the supposed gold plates that Smith would put inside a pillow case. It was not, in other words, a case of a pillow case being filled with sand.



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2012 02:35PM by steve benson.

- believe me, I think he was a narcisstic opportunist - but i'm still not sold on the validity of Ingersoll's statement, sworn affidavit or not.

The first thing that just strikes me as odd is why in the world would he wrap up some white sand and take it home? According to this account the idea of pulling the wool over his families eyes didn't occur to him until he got home.

There are bazillions of examples of Joseph Smith's fraud, i'm just still not convinced this is one of them.

kookoo4kokaubeam Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The first thing that just strikes me as odd is why in the world would he wrap up some white sand and take it home?

Because it's not like he could get some at Home Depot or Lowe's.

It was attractive and unusual in such a copious amount. He wanted to show it to his family. He might have thought he could find a use for it. I've taken home beach sand in nice colors, interesting rocks and pieces of wood, etc. I don't think that his impulse was that unusual. Lots of kids and even adults comb the Eastern woodlands for Native American arrowheads and artifacts. Their eyes are on the forest floor, looking for interesting things. My brother used to spend a lot of time in the woods. Not unusual at all.

He might have eventually switched the sand out for something harder, or simply had people feel the small chest under the piece of cloth.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2012 03:20PM by steve benson.

I think this account is likely, however, it does little to offer any "proof". Affidavits are sworn testimonies but they are not a ruling of any type so can be dismissed as perjury, especially given the sentiment amongst TBM's of the supposed persecution against early mormons. It is obvious however that JS knew that it was a fraud, since he conceived the whole thing and this is already been proved fraudulent in so many ways, none of which TBM's care in any way shape or form to study and learn for themselves. However, once the truth is learned, it is good to see stated accounts of those close to JS that show that there were actually times when JS secretly admitted it, you would think that would have happened on a least several occasions at some points through his life.

All told though, whether the "sworn affidavit" is true or not is - like all other things - to be taken in or not and considered, and personally evaluated. Of all the things to consider, I would take a generally benign statement in court to be more believable than say a kooky book intended to sway huge groups of people.

More importantly though is the real gospel truth: people make up sh*t and they are really good at making up sh*t. People - in the same vein - believe sh*t. People believe tons and tons of sh*t.

Y'all can hate on Br. Joseph all you want, but he was amazingly good at making up sh*t and people believe it - all of it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2012 10:13AM by Yaqoob.

Having a talent for making up sh*t and having people believe it, even when it contradicts previous statements, has become part of the Mormon brotherhood culture.

Audacity + Charisma = Privilege

We do be hatin' on Joseph Smith, as you put it, because ya can't fool all the people all the time. Those of us who walked away from the charlatan hold him responsible for his lies, not his victims.

So I be hatin' the egotistical, lying, thieving, reputation-destroying, faithless, God-not-fearing seducer and statutory rapist, yes I do.


Anagrammy


Anagrammy

I love what you write Grammy!

:-)

Is there a better source of Ingersoll's statement? Something that actually shows where it came from rather than just the text of it being thrown up somewhere online?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2012 03:14PM by steve benson.

It may or may not be true, but it wouldn't at all surprise me if it were.

The point is, he knew what he was doing and he knew it was dishonest but he did it anyway and like any con-man reveled in his victory.

Rodger I. Anderson, in his book "Jospeh Smith's New York Reputation Re-examined" (Salt Lake City, Utah: Signature Books, 1990), notes the following regarding Ingersoll's affidavit:

--Ingersoll's assessment of Smith and his family reflected similiar conclusions from affidavits taken from several members of the Palymra community in which Smith lived:

"[Ex-Mormon and affidavit collector Philastus] Hurlburt's question, 'Was digging for money the general employment of the Smith family?,' repeated to each witness, would explain Peter Inersoll's 'The general employment of the family was digging for money' . . . "

Anderson notes that "[e]ven if Hurlbut did contribute to the style and structore of the affidavits, it does not necessarily follow that he 'contaminated' them by interpolation. Similarities such as those noted by [Mormon critics] may only mean that Hurlbut submitted the same questions to some of the parties involved." (p. 28)


--Ingersoll's statement was a sworn legal dodcument affirming to facts which Ingersoll asserted were true:

Notes Anderson, "Even if Hurlbut had written out some of the statements after interviewing those concerned, the individuals either signed the statements, thus affirming their supposed accuracy, or swore to the statements before a magistrate. For example, Peter Ingersoll appeared before Judge Thomas P. Baldwin 'and made oath according to law, to the truth of the above statement.'" (p. 29)


--Ingergoll's affidavit cannot be dismissed as completely non-evidentiary:

Anderson counters the argument from Mormon apologists that Ingersoll's testimmony deserves to be dismissed because it "consists not in observation, but supposed admissions in conversation," by noting that "[o]f these criticisms, some are based on entirely erroneous information and some reflect partial truth and partial error. But none justify [the] conclusion that the affidavits are essentially 'non-evidence.'" (p. 43)


--The larger content of Ingersoll's affidavit as described by Anderson:

"In his deposition, Ingersoll rehearses various efforts of the elder Smith to make him [Ingersoll] a money digger, recalls conversations with him about divination and money digging and relates an episode in which Joseph Smith, Sr., found some lost cows by means of a witch hazel stick. Ingersoll dismisses this later accomplishemtn as a trick to test his credibility.

"Ingersoll tells of being hired by Joseph Smith, Jr., to go with him to Pennsylvania to help move Smith's new wife Emma's furniture back to Manchester, describes an episode along the way in which Smith supposedly displayed some Yankee ingenuity to avoid paying a toll, repeats an alleged confession that the business of the gold plates was nothing more than a ruse to deceive his parents, recounts Smith's successful effort to get $50.00 from Martin Harris and narrates a number of other episodes said to have been drawn from his personal knowledge of the Smith family."

"According to Ingersoll, Smith told him that he had discovered some white sand that had been washed out after a storm. Impressed with the beauty and purity of the sand, Smith tied several quarts of it up in his farmer's smock and carried it home. His response when his parents expressed curiosity about what he had in his smock, according to Ingersoll, was '[I] happened to think of what I had heard about a history found in Canada, called the golden Bible; so I very gravely told them it was the golden Bible. To my surprise, they were credulous enough to believe what I said. Accordingly, I told them that I had received a commandment to let no one see it, for, says I, no man can see it with with the naked eye and live. However, I offered to take out the book and show it to them, but they refused to see it and left the room.' Now, said Joe, 'I have got the damned fools fixed and will carry out the fun.'"


--Anderson has doubts about the "white sand" story in several respects but concludes that it confirms, in the larger sense, important elements of Smith's questionable reputation and character:

"Of all the information volunteered by Hurlbut's witness, Ingersoll's story is the most dubious for a number of reasons.

"First, Ingersoll represents the incident as unpremeditated deception on Smith's part. Aside from all other considerations, there exists ample evidence that Smith had been talking about the gold plates some time before the date Ingersoll attaches to this prank.

"Second, Smith's known regard for his parents makes it unlikely that he would deceive them for the sheer fun of it, call them 'damned fools' and perpetrate the hoax for the rest of his life.

"Third, Ingersoll records that after this confession of duplicity he offered to loan Smith sufficient money to move to Pennsylvania, which is unlikely if Smith was, in fact, the knave Ingersoll knew him to be.

"Last--and perhaps the most signficant consideration--Pomeroy Tucker remembered that Ingersoll 'was at first inclined to put faith in his [Smith's] "Golden Bible" pretension.' If Tucker's statemnt can be trusted, it seems likely that Ingersoll created the story as a way of striking back at Smith for his own gullibility in swalling a story he later became convinced was a hoax."

Anderson suggests that the claim that Ingersoll may have "perjured" himself by "knowingly swearing to a lie" was "possible." Nonetheless, at the end of Ingersoll's sworn affidavit, Dufrey Chase (a local citizen who knew both Ingersoll and the Smith family) affirms in a statement dated 13 December 1833 the following: "I certify that I have been personally acquainted with Peter Ingersoll for a number of years and believe him to be a man of strict integrity, truth and veracity."


--Anderson notes that much of Ingersoll's affidavit rings true:

"The 'white sand' story casts a shadow of suspicion over Ingersoll's entire affidavit but it does not follow that every part of his statement is false.

"For instance, according to Ingersoll, Smith promised Isaac Hale 'to give up his old habits of digging for money and looking into stones' and gratefully accepted Hale's offer of financial support if Smith 'would move to Pennsylvania and work for a living.' According to Hale's independent account of the same conversation, 'Smith stated to me that he had give up what he called "glass-looking" and that he expected to work hard for a living and was willing to do so,' and Hale's son Alva remembered Smith as saying 'that he intended to quit the business (of peeping) and labor for his livelihood.'

"Ingersoll also stated that on this same occasion, Smith 'acknowledged he could not see in a stone now, nor ever could.' This was remembereed by Alva Hale, who quoted Smith as sayng 'that this "peeping" was all d--d nonsense. He (Smith) was deceived himself but did not intend to deceive others.'

"These parallels do not substantiate Ingersoll's 'white sand' story but they confirm that Smith publicly acknowledged his career as a 'glass looker' and money digger. . . .

"Other parts of Ingersoll's affidavit can also be independently confirmed.

"His claim that he was hired by Smith to go to Pennsylvania and move EWmma's furniture back to Manchester was confirmed by Isaac Hale; his account of Smith's unsuccessful attempt to get Willard Chase to make a box for the gold plates was confirmed by Chase; and his report that Smith approached Martin Harris with the remark, 'I had a comand to ask the first honest man I met for $50.00 in money, and he would let me have it' was confirmed by both Chase and Jesse Townsend. More significant that these confirmations, however, is his claim that Joseph Smith, Sr., possessed a magical rod. This is significant not only because many others mention the elder Smith's rod but also becuase it can now be shown that the report by no means originated with Ingeraoll or even the vitriolic editoirals of Abner Cole in 1831. . . . " (pp. 55-58, 61-62n, 70; for Ingersoll's full affidavit--which Anderson notes is "reproduced exactly as [it] appear[s] in the original published or unpublished sources, with the exception of arranging them either alphabetically or chronologically"--see pp. 134-139)



Edited 16 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2012 03:17PM by steve benson.

"I have had trouble enough with this thing."

I have said the same thing with good and useful things that I have had trouble building, but was nevertheless proud and content with my accomplishment in the end.
How do you know what he was thinking when he said that?

Are you preparing a Mormon Sunday School lesson, or something?

:)

I do firmly believe that JS was a career criminal with the idea that he could use occult means and his gift for inventive stories in place of hard work and honest business, BUT the Ingersol testimony strikes me as odd in several respects.

Of what use was white sand to JS? Sand in a smock or shirt certainly does not move or sound like metal plates. Why would JS call his own people "fools"? The story he supposedly told them was very silly - if looking at the plates would strike one dead, how did he see them in the first place without being struck down??

It seems like I read that at one time he had several old aluminum (or some cheap metal) plates in a sack that he would invite the gulible to feel through to support his tall tale - but I can't remember the source.

Simply chalk it up to Smith's dark side, exhibited to a friend out in the woods--and out of earshot.

On your other points:

--First, Smith could have not necessarily been struck down for seeing the plates if God meant for him to see the plates (but he could be mightily struck by an angel, as he claimed he was, for attempting to take the plates from the Hill Cumorah before he was allowed to do so). Moreover, the Bible declares that no man can see God and live (Exodus33:20), but Smith somehow managed to get around that inconvenient fact in the grove of trees.

--Second, Smith could have convinced his family that the sand in his smock was the plates by claiming they were heavy. Smith's family was a notoriously superstitious and backward lot who were deeply into foolish notions of folk magic, harboring primitive beliefs in all kinds of medieval enchantments and occultic practices. So it would not be surprising if they didn't want to go near the smock-shrouded plates, being the fools that they were.

--Third, as to your suggested option that Smith might have used old aluminum plates instead of sand to pull off his deceit, that seems a rather remote possibility. Although aluminum is present in the Earth's crust as "a naturally occurring element," even before his day it was hard to get to, and very expensive: "Until late in the 19th century, aluminum was far more precious than gold or platinum. In spite of it's being the third most common element in the Earth's crust, it was difficult to extract, so was extremely rare in any pure form. A pound of aluminum would have cost $100,000 in 1885, but because of the work of Charles Martin Hall in that year, a process for refining the metal inexpensively from ore made it more readily available, and the price plummetted. This once rare metal is now one of the most common construction metals in the world. Only steel is more used."

("Who Invented Aluminim?," under "Answers," at: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_invented_aluminum#ixzz211LgKUIO



Edited 17 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2012 09:50PM by steve benson.

Is it also true (as someone asserted elsewhere) that Joseph didn't often quote from or the use the Book of Mormon in his sermons?

Avoiding the B.O.M, I think, is pretty clear evidence of fraud. It would only be naturally to avoid using a book where you had to constantly keep your story straight. Keeping up a lie takes energy, so it is easier to avoid the subject altogher.

On the other hand, if the origins of the B.O.M were in fact exactly as Joe said they were, it would support Joe quoting and preaching from this book every chance he had. It you came upon a book with such an amazing backstory, wouldn't you try to promote it all the time?

I don't think he knew the BoM as well as he knew the Bible. Go read from the Journal of Discourses...it's full of quotes from the Bible, mingled with bizarro doctrine. I've read quite a bit and I haven't found many BoM references.

"More significant that[sic] these confirmations, however, is his claim that Joseph Smith, Sr., possessed a magical rod. This is significant not only because many others mention the elder Smith's rod but"<snip>

Meh, every guy claims to have a magical rod. Just ask them.

The "magical rod" drew a sardonic grin.

The question rattling around in my skull isn't how JS perpetrated the fraud or how it took root in the early saints but how did the church expand and persist to the present? I come up with the same idea- mormonism is an American church born in the first wave of American nationalism and reached its apex in the first half of "the American century."

What TBMs fail to see is that Joseph Smith is just another Reverend Moon of his time. If you believe in reincarnation, I bet Reverend Moon was Joseph Smith :-P
Man, I gotta start a cult, I'd be a billionaire. I'd put the LD$ church out of business. I'd buy that church and declare myself the "profit" uh, I mean prophet... then I'd force everyone to repeat "I know this church is true" 100 times every Sunday while I take all their tithing money to my bank account. That's the way to make money! Move over Thomas S. Monson, there's a new sheriff in town.

Ingersoll could have sworn quite truthfully that JS told him that story. Joe could have made it up for fun, as he loved to do that. He probably spun the tale on the spot just to see Ingersoll's reaction. I see JS as a guy who didn't care whether what he said was truth or not, he just enjoyed telling tales to see who would believe them.