The bishop didn't call back after I left a pretty nasty message on his voice mail. Instead he showed up at the house wanting to talk in person. I didn't invite him in and stepped out on the porch and closed the door behind me. I looked him in the eye and told him he will never spend another minute alone with my kids in any form of interview. I asked him why the Scouts have a two deep leadership policy and the church does not? He back peddled and claimed he was only following the handbook. I called him on his bullshit. He apologized and left.

I was able to talk in detail to my daughter. I really had to bite my tongue and hide my anger. I used the same appeal to emotions approach the church uses to manipulate members into feeling the spirit. I specially asked her how she felt sitting there alone. She answered she was nervous. I then asked her to explain why and she said she didn't know what to expect. She explained she felt creeped out so I asked her why? She explained and I told her that was her instincts telling her it was not right. She agreed. I told her that she can always choose to leave a situation when she doesn't feel comfortable and she agreed. We then talked about masturbation and I explained gently that it is natural for both boys and girls to explore their bodies and that it was not considered a sin. She's been very naive when it comes to sexuality So this was a good opportunity to have the discussion. The conversation went well and she understood that its nobody else's business and that it was inappropriate for another man to ask her personal questions.

I'm very upset at the wife and will save posting details for now out of respect for privacy and because I'm afraid I'll post something I'll regret later. I'm confused because I really thought I was lucky she stuck by me through this apostasy journey even though she remains TBM as ever. Yet the farther down the path I get, the more I realize I don't want a TBM spouse. I hate garments. I hate the impromptu testimonies. I hate the elephant in the room. It's just not worth it anymore.

You did well with your daughter. And with the bishop as well.

But I know it was brutal with the wife if you don't want to post a lot of specifics.

I'm very sorry about that.

Wow, how you handled that situation with your daughter was so incredibly sensitive, caring, and accepting. I'm glad she understands that the feeling of being in that meeting was creepy and that she was taught to listen to those feelings. Wow. Just wow.

I'm glad you told that bishop to F-off like you did.

And I'm sorry about your marriage. I really am. You're going through a ton right now and it's damn hard. Hang in there (emotionally, I mean). RfM peeps will be here to help you out.

Good for you calling out the bishop on this terribly inappropriate situation. I don't see how a grown man would feel comfortable talking about those sexual things with a nieve little girl.

It is only a matter of time before this type of interview either goes the way of all flesh or it is required to have a parent sit in.

The fact that they have EVER done it boggles the mind when you think about it.

Very very very very inappropriate.

Also, all it did was teach me how to lie!

You did well with the bishop and were very sensitive and caring with your daughter.

I hope when this upset dies down a bit you'll feel better about your marriage if you and your wife have a solid loving foundation.

Take care.

Fantastic job!

On your last paragraph - good luck working through that. I've definitely have some of the same challenges and frustrations myself. One of my concerns is that I feel I need to stay in the home to better protect my children from the TSCC. I have mostly worked through those feelings of not wanting a TBM spouse, at least for now and am able to for the most part look past the elephant in the marriage and enjoy my wife. We definitely both took a very serious look at divorce in the process.

The more I read about what goes on inside TSCC the more unbelievable I find it. A worthiness interview for a 12-year-old girl and asking about masterbation?! Are these bishops equipped to handle such personal situations, I mean really? I am just appalled. Kudos to you Rowell (daddy) for sitting down with her and going over the wrongdoings! I have these "if only I knew then what I know now" moments all the time...too late for my daughter. She's in the clutches of this crazy church!

Awesome! Good job!

I'd like to find out more about the scout two-level deep leadership policy. What is that?

A single adult is never allowed to be alone with the kids. There must always be two adults present. The only exception is that when driving somewhere they can be only one adult in the car with several boy - but there needs to be two adults at the destination.

Also the boys and leaders cannot sleep in the same tent (except in the case where it is a father & son).

Unfortunately this is a hindsight rule to protect themselves legally after past cases of sexual abuse by scout leaders.

The conversation with your daughter was handled with great sensitivity and aplomb.

The bishop?

When spurious authority is not confronted, it is encouraged: you rocked his world - and why not? He's an untrained, possibly voyeuristic, functionary of a pseudo-religion, stepping _way_ out of bounds with his "worthiness" interview. Maybe he'll think twice, next time.
------------

Nicely done, Dad...

The fact that your wife willingly delivered your 12-year-old daughter up to a male so called but nevertheless totally untrained religious lackey to be questioned - alone! ALONE!!! - about her personal sexual information is akin to your wife offering your daughter up for rape, child prostitution and slavery. If it were not tied directly to the function of the Mormon church and supposedly defended under the umbrella of religious freedom, it would become a case in the family law division of the court system.

I will never understand how anyone thinks this is acceptable - the practice of demanding personal sexual information from a minor. Despite its institutionalization by the Mormon cult, it is TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE in human-rights terms.

If I were you I would consider documenting this in a letter and depositing it with your local police department, as a prelude to pressing charges of human trafficking and child prostitution against at least this Mormon asshole bishop and possibly also against your wife, if she continues to support such insane treatment of your daughter.

I'm glad, at least, that you could have a sane, productive conversation with your daughter about this criminally invasive practice.

Please forgive me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2012 09:13AM by Samantha Baker.

Good job with your daughter and with confronting the bishop.

Can I ask why your wife wasn't present during the interview? Is she really that brain washed?

Glad you had the opportunity to put the Bishop in his place. Arrogant Bastard!

I know how you are feeling about the TBM wife situation...garments are never a help in a already strained marriage. Must be getting old to live with that nutty thinking too.

I agree - you handled the conversation with your daughter brilliantly. The first thing the church tries to take away from you is your sense of boundaries and your ability to trust your instinct. They want to override those boundaries and take away your ability to trust yourself and being able to trust yourself is key for good mental health. You gave her back her power by validating her feelings and telling her it was OK to set boundaries. It's an extremely important lesson. Also, teaching her normal developmental behavior is OK and no one else's business was key to her growing up healthy so good for you for being willing to tackle a difficult subject and give her information she needs.

It is hard having to straddle a mixed-faith marriage with a TBM. Because you can't get away from Mormons as much as you need to in order to become whole again. The more you have to stay involved, the more you are just the Mormons punching bag and you have to endure their little cuts and comments and offensive behaviors. Good luck figuring out your next step but you handled this one so well you should have faith in yourself. P.S. I really liked the way you called B.S. on the bishop's claim that the handbook told him he had to ask those questions. That's bull - the church knows how to protect itself and wouldn't command a man to do that in writing that could come back and bite them in the butt. They might allude to things, but the bishop is inferring the right to push boundaries way out of line with decent human behavior. He's a real weasel.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2012 12:05PM by CA girl.

CA Girl...I was a member for such a short time but having flashbacks of the bishop at that time. Since i'm such a short-phrase girl....yea, weasel incognito pretty much sums up my feelings.

"He back peddled and claimed he was only following the handbook."

And that, friends,is what the Mormon church is all about: policies, procedures, and rules. No common sense, no sense of delicacy [delicadeza], and zero compassion.

Kudos to you, you are a great dad!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2012 12:16PM by charles, buddhist punk.

Thank you for sharing this. For those of us raised with parents who thought that a Bishop asking children about masturbation is "normal" it's heartening to hear that there are parents who respect their children and will not allow them to sacrifice their personal boundaries to the church.

You used a perfect teaching opportunity with your daughter and with the bishop. Those opportunities are all over the place in the organization.
Good for you on standing up and not cowering like a sheep!
The world needs more YOU's, not ewe's.

I think you did a very good job. Your daughter is lucky to have a dad who cares about her.

I'm sorry to hear about the wife part of the situation, and hopefully it can all work out...

What you did was a very sensible and practical evaluation of emotions and what they are good for. Excellent job! I hope you have many more opportunities to teach your daughter to trust her emotions when they warn her she's in an unsafe place. :)

(Um, I hope you have many opportunities that don't require your daughter to be in an unsafe place first, though.)

You did right. Sadly, it isn't really the Bishops fault, he was following church direction, but until we start standing up to them, and letting them know this is not acceptable, they will never change, and this BS will keep happening.

On the other hand, when they are just following church instruction blindly, we should point out they are being like good little Germans, who were only following orders, before doing really horrific things. If played right, you might wake something up in the Bishops mind, and start him on the process of moving out himself.

You did a great job with your daughter! I wish I had had a father like you when I was in the same position as a 12-yo-girl. I felt violated by the whole interview and I had no sensitive parent to validate my feelings and encourage me to trust and follow my instincts.

Your daughter is a lucky girl to have you as her father!

I commend you for the way you handled this situation.

I made it clear to my bishop that whenever he interviews my daughter, I am there in the room. He has been very cooperative about this.

Question:

Where in the handbook does it say masturbation?

Where in the handbook does it say masturbation is appropriate for an adult male to bring up with a 12 year old girl?

I know the chastity question but if someone doesn't even know what masturbation is when they walk into the interview and they walk out knowing the word......falling back on policy and handbooks and procedures is all well and good for avoiding personal responsibility if you are an idiot but I fail to see how the word masturbation is in there simply for liability reasons (i.e. the church handbook specifically states that adult men are to ask minor pre-puberty girls about masturbation- the church would set themselves up to be sued instead of setting up their 'volunteer' clergy to be sued).

I wish I could high five you for the manner in which you are assisting your daughter in setting boundaries, establish and maintain self respect and choose to value herself in a manner that she will find she deserves. You rock.

Despite the classy moment in your post about your wife I can't help but wonder if some of the reason why your wife does not have an issue with this situation is because she does not set boundaries, does not respect herself or her private relationships by freely allowing a random man (bishop) to have intimate details and control over her and that perhaps the idea that she could value herself might be alien to her. She may not understand the issue fundamentally, in a way that goes beyond religion. The religion may have forced her to that place because she did not have a responsible adult behave in a responsible manner as you have but beyond the religion there is something fundamentally missing in a person who allows their minor daughter to be placed in that situation with no oversight fully knowing that sexual matters will be discussed with someone who has not yet engaged in the puberty process.

I am so thrilled that your daughter has someone like you to care about the situation, listen to what she has to say, tell her what is appropriate with adult men she does not know, and to value herself. I hope that your daughter can be a great example of valuing herself to her mom. That would rock.

Best of luck and hang in there with any stress that inevitably occurs when TBMs are confronting reality.

I am not trained in the psychology and cannot formulate the concept in an articulate fashion, but the mechanics of this type of interview and relationship are probably scientifically proven to make people dependent on the torture and relief that religion offers. I this example the little girl is made to feel bad, then the authority figure offers the solution to help her over come what god hates about her. Above and beyond is the inappropriateness of a grown male adult quizzing her on sexual things.

I went though a court o'love. And as I think about the psychological techniques used during that experience, I see that it is a mind breaking and sets up a drug dealer to user relationship. You are bad and we can tell you that you are clean. That is screwed up. For me to be whole again, I needed to fast for myself and I see that as self hypnotism back into morg good. Then read the new testament and focus on Jesus married to the church --wtf. And get counseling. That I agree with.

....wow.... How did I do along with this for 30 years?

I left the church a year ago and I don't plan on going back. I don't believe in a lot of stuff the church does, but have you considered that you might be overreacting to this situation? It might be because I am still young, or that I left the church somewhat recently, but I don't think that the bishop asking your daughter about masturbation is "akin to your wife offering your daughter up for rape, child prostitution and slavery." It might be a little creepy and all, and so I understand where your anger is coming from, but it doesn't mean that he was trying to exploit her sexually. After all, the leaders <b>are</b> supposed to ask the "are you keeping the law of chastity?" question to everyone they interview.

I remember when I asked the "what is masturbation?" question. Oh god, that was embarrassing. It was in the middle of seminary in my 10th grade year. Someone asked why the church was against masturbation without porn, and I asked the question--not so quietly. That got everyone's attention! The guy sitting in front of me had to explain it to me. It competes for the second most embarrassing time in my life.

Maybe I was sheltered because of the church--or because of my family--and so sex ed. didn't come to me until a later stage. I think that it is good that you are teaching your daughter about it because otherwise strange situations like that might happen to her. But is it really so bad that the bishop asked her about masturbation? I mean, he didn't go beyond that, did he? Like physically invasive actions.

It's bad because you're putting a minor alone with an older man who's not only had zero training in counseling or anything of that nature, but also wields ecclesiastical authority over that child. That child is in a position where they are expected to describe personal details about his or her sexuality because they must subject themselves to this man's authority. The safety or well-being of the child is not taken into consideration -- only the man's ecclesiastical authority, and his position to deem this child "worthy" in god's eyes. Children are at a disadvantage and unable to defend themselves if they feel threatened or uncomfortable.

If that child has masturbated before, they are expected to confess in whatever detail this man deems fit, in all likelihood be publicly punished for it (unable to take the sacrament, unable to pass the sacrament, etc.), and come back for follow-up interviews -- all without parental supervision.

If the child is uncomfortable or confused by the questions, they are expected to just deal with it because god's chosen are the ones asking the questions. It is a violation of boundaries and highly inappropriate. A man interviewing a child about sex without touching the child doesn't exclude the possibility of sexual harassment. Using authority to pressure someone into talking about sexual topics they may not want to talk about is a form of sexual harassment, IMO.

Just because this man is expected by the church to ask everyone whether they follow the "law of chastity" does not mean it's okay for him to expect minors to delve into their sexual history.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2012 01:59AM by faboo.

exactly--well said, faboo

overreacting? - remember how embarrassing the event you mentioned in seminary was, now imagine being 4 or 5 years younger and stuck in a small, closed space with some old dude asking you about masturbation...

I am just finding my true thoughts again...Thankyou for mention this..I am just stepping out and I'm so nervous. I could use a friend on the out side.K