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Posted by: taketheredpill ( )
Date: October 01, 2012 02:58PM

"Yes, it's similar to a Masonic relationship."

-Jeffrey R. Holland (BBC, Documentary "The Mormon Candidate")

Did, anyone else see this?

I'm sure there were many who saw this, if not, you should find it on YouTube.

This is it for me folks, an admission from the horses mouth. He said it himself. One of the twelve apostles referring to the ordinances/rituals in the temlple, "Yes, its similar to a Masonic relationship." It's awkwardly worded, and is very dodgy. But, there you have it.

It's a smoking gun in my eyes, but I know TBM would dismiss this without a thought. Some would feel a little uncomfortable. But, this is not receiving the attention it deserves.

What are everyone's thoughts on this?

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Posted by: lostman ( )
Date: October 01, 2012 03:23PM

Most of early Mormonism has connections and related symbolism to Free Masonry.

A few weeks ago, on this forum, somebody posted a quote from the LDS first presidency from about 1910, and to paraphrase, it said, (Because of the Masonic nature of the temple ceremony it is to be kept secret and sacred).

The key here is not the secret or the sacred, but the reason therefore, the Masonic connection. B. H. Roberts qoutes Joseph Smith many times saying in a variety of ways that Mormonism is to be a " more perfect form of Masonry".

At least 80% of the LDS temple ceremony was directly lifted from the Nauvoo Masonic lodge and from Joseph SR. and Hyrum who had been Masons since the Palmyra period and earlier.

Brigham young was able and ready to modify the Masonry as he wished when the Nauvoo temple was finished and just made up stuff as he went along to fill in where Masonry left off.

Look at the Salt Lake city temple if there is still any question of the Masonic connections to the early church. The outside has many Masonic symbols and a complete Moon Phase on th South side, "Asro-theology" anyone, anybody ?

Esoteric and pagan symbology is key to the founding of the Mormon church. Why was J. S. so interseted in the book of Enoch as a " American frontier ignorant farm boy" ??

Why doesn't the church teach how Joseph Smith's exposure to the Kabbalah and Jewish Mystical texts influenced most of his doctrines in the 1843-44 period, specifically the " King Follet Discourse"?

The LDS church that has been sold to people, like a cheap suit, since 1922 is only loosely based on the Joseph Smith years. The corporate church does anything it can to hide the history of the church and even more so the history of Masonry as how it relates to the founding of the church.

There are some very good articles on the internet about Mormon-Masonry, " Is there no Help for a widows son"?

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Posted by: Outcast ( )
Date: October 01, 2012 03:27PM

Oh yes, the temple endowment was 'revealed' to JS alright...just not the way he said. Maybe you can explain one similarity to freemasonry (temple ritual), but you lose all credibility by using another masonic tale (legend of enoch) as your own 'first vision' account.

JS stole his best material from the masons.

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Posted by: Jim Huston ( )
Date: October 01, 2012 04:13PM

LDS historian Reed C. Durham, Jr., insists Joseph Smith did in fact use the Masonic ceremony as a springboard for the Mormon ceremony. He wrote, "There is absolutely no question in my mind that the Mormon ceremony which came to be known as the Endowment, introduced by Joseph Smith to Mormon Masons initially, just a little over one month after he became a Mason, had an immediate inspiration from Masonry" (No Help For the Widow's Son, 1980, pg. 17).
"[L]ittle room for doubt can exist in the mind of an informed, objective analyst that the Mormon Temple Endowment and the rituals of ancient Craft Masonry are seemingly intimately and definitely involved." (Mervin B. Hogan, Freemasonry and Mormon Ritual (Salt Lake City: author, 1991), p. 22)
The Mormon Temple endowment ceremony is without a doubt taken from the Masonic ceremonies Joseph Smith participated in just weeks before he introduced the temple endowment. The grips, tokens, covenants, secret words, keys, etc. were word for word the same when first introduced. Members who were Masons previous to Joseph joining the fraternal order unashamedly referred to the Mormon endowment as "celestial masonry." Fawn Brodie, No Man Knows My History, pp. 279-283
Heber C. Kimball, a Mason himself said, “We have the true Masonry. The Masonry of today is received from the apostasy which took place in the days of Solomon, and David. They have now and then a thing that is correct, but we have the real thing.” (Manuscript History of Brigham Young,” 13 November, 1858, 1085, LDS archives; see also Stanley B. Kimball, “Heber C. Kimball and Family, The Nauvoo Years, Brigham &Young University Studies 15 (Summer 1975): 458. See also David John Buerger, The Mysteries of Godliness: A History of Mormon Temple Worship, Smith Research Associates, San Francisco, 1994, 56.)
"The clearest evidence of Masonic influence on the Nauvoo temple ceremony is a comparison of texts. Three elements of the Nauvoo endowment and its contemporary Masonic ritual resemble each other so closely that they are sometimes identical. These are the tokens, signs, and penalties." (David Buerger, Mysteries of Godliness: A History of Mormon Temple Worship, Chapter 3: Joseph Smith's Ritual)
"I have attempted thus far to demonstrate that Masonic influences upon Joseph in the early Church history, preceding his formal membership in Masonry, were significant....In fact, I believe that there are few significant developments in the Church, that occurred after March 15, 1842, which did not have some Masonic interdependence." (Joseph Smith and Masonry: No Help for the Widow's Son, p.17)

"Bro Joseph Ses Masonary was taken from preasthood but has become degen[e]rated. But menny things are perfect." (Letter from Heber C. Kimball to Parley P. Pratt, June 17, 1842)

LDS historian David John Buerger
LDS historian David John Buerger conceded that there is no validity to Joseph
Smith's claim that Masonic rituals were of ancient origin:
"The traditional origin of Freemasonry (which 'enlightened' Masons view as mythological or legendary) is the construction of Solomon's temple by Master Mason Hiram Abiff. Actually Freemasonry was a development of the craft guilds during the construction of the great European cathedrals during the tenth to seventeenth centuries.
After the Middle Ages, lodges in Scotland and Great Britain began to accept honorary members and worked out rudimentary ceremonies to distinguish members of trade organizations. In 1717 four fraternal lodges, perhaps actual masons' lodges, united as the Grand Lodge of England, considered the beginning of organized Freemasonry or 'speculative Masonry.' The order spread quickly to other countries and included such prominent adherents as Mozart, Voltaire, George Washington, and Benjamin Franklin. Some historians believe that Masons staged the Boston Tea Party.
Latter-day Saints may feel that Masonry constitutes a biblical-times source of uncorrupted knowledge from which the temple ceremony could be drawn. However, historians of Freemasonry generally agree that the trigradal system of Entered Apprentice, Fellow Craft, and Master Mason, as practiced in Nauvoo, cannot be traced further back than the eighteenth century. According to Douglas Knoop and G. P. Jones, two knowledgeable twentieth-century historians, it is 'highly probable' that the system of Masonry practiced at the organization of the Grand Lodge in London 'did not consist of three distinct degrees.' They warn, 'It would probably not be safe to fix a date earlier than 1723 or 1725 for the origin' of the trigradal system. 'Accepted Masonry underwent gradual changes throughout a period of years stretching from well before 1717 to well after that date.... The earliest speculative phase of Freemasonry may be regarded as beginning about 1730.... Though some symbolism had doubtless crept into Masonry by that date, it would not appear to have reached its full development for another forty or fifty years.' "
(The Mysteries of Godliness: A History of Mormon Temple Worship, pp. 45-46.)

“Unfortunately, there is no historical evidence to support a continuous functioning line from Solomon's Temple to the present. We know what went on in Solomon's Temple; it's the ritualistic slaughter of animals.”
“The Message and the Messenger: Latter-day Saints and Freemasonry” by Greg Kearney
http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2005_Latter-day_Saints_and_Freemasonry.html

“Masonry, while claiming a root in antiquity, can only be reliably traced to mediaeval stone tradesmen.”

“It is clear that Freemasonry and its traditions played a role in the development of the endowment ritual…”
http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Similarities_between_Masonic_and_Mormon_Temple_Ritual.html

John Lynch, LDS Chairman of FAIR
John Lynch, head of FAIR confirms in a podcast on mormonstories.org that the Masons did not have the temple ceremony from Solomon’s time. To listen, go to http://forthosewhowonder.com/msarchive/MormonStories-007-FAIRPT1.mp3
http://forthosewhowonder.com/msarchive/MormonStories-008-FAIRPT2.mp3
http://forthosewhowonder.com/msarchive/MormonStories-009-FAIRPT3.mp3

- I’m not sure which of the three parts it’s on, but Brother Lynch admits to John Dehlin that many commonly-held beliefs of the members are untrue – specifically mentioned are that there were NOT more women than men in the Church when they practiced polygamy and that the Masons did not really have the temple ceremony from Solomon’s time. He even jokes that ‘anti-Mormons’ will use what he said against him.

Greg Kearney
Greg Kearney is a lifelong, multi-generational Mormon and Master Mason. Per FAIR’s website: ‘Greg Kearney is an active temple-attending Latter-day Saint as well as a life member of Franklin Lodge #123 A.F. & A.M. as well as several lodges of research. He gives Masonic education lectures at lodges on the history and relationship of Freemasonry to the development of the Latter-day Saint temples.’

Brother Kearney has written many article for FAIR. He was interviewed by John Dehlin of Mormonstories.org. We found it to be a very interesting podcast. He is a devout Mormon and defends the LDS Church. As a perhaps 10th generation Mason he is very knowledge about Masonry.

In the mormonstories.org podcast Brother Kearney is quite candid in stating that the Masonry Rituals do not come from Solomon’s time or anywhere even close to that. He completely refutes the commonly-held defense among many Latter-day Saints that believe that the LDS temple Ceremony is similar to Masonry Rituals because the original Masons working at Solomon’s temple had learned temple ceremony secrets and kept them long after Solomon’s temple was destroyed.

Per mormonstories.org: ‘In this podcast he discusses the history of Masonry, how it became associated with the LDS Church, and why he feels like this association is a positive, and not a negative one. We go into surprising depth not just on the respective temple ceremonies (without being disrespectful, or violating covenants of course), but also on Joseph Smith’s involvement during the Nauvoo years. You will be amazed at his knowledge on these topics. The podcast is available here:
http://forthosewhowonder.com/msarchive/MormonStories-005-Masonry.mp3
Albert Pike, head of York Rite freemasonry in the 1800s, attributes Freemasonry to Kabbalism in his book “Morals and Dogma”. Gershom Scholem “Kabbalah”, Professor of Jewish Mysticism for the University of Jerusalem does the same. Gershom Scholem headed a research project that identified the 11th and 12th centuries as the beginnings of Kabbalism and the Zohar, the primary book of Kabbalism.

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Posted by: lostman ( )
Date: October 01, 2012 04:35PM

Mr. Jim Huston, Thank You That is a great list, I wish every LDS member could read and ponder the information in those texts.

I wonder how much of this Masonic foundation is still used by the First Presidency?

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Posted by: taketheredpill ( )
Date: October 01, 2012 04:39PM

Wow, great post. . . I have some homework to do. . .

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: October 01, 2012 05:06PM

I pointed out all the problems with the Masonic aspect of the
Endowment to my brother, the CES employee. How the oaths
(covenants), penalties and grips ("tokens") were the result of
the medieval guild system and made perfect sense in that
milieu. How Masonic historians have refuted the "descended from
Solomon's temple" rumor that was accepted in JS's time but known
to be false now.

His response was that he once was a tourist in Egypt and his
"non-LDS guide" told him things about an ancient Egyptian temple
that he felt was similar to things in the Mormon Endowment
ceremony.

If you want to avoid the truth, there are a million ways to do it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2012 05:06PM by baura.

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Posted by: canadianfriend ( )
Date: October 01, 2012 05:20PM

Do Mormons care if there is a Masonic connection? Do they care that their beliefs are as fictitous as Scientology? Do they care about Egyptian funeral texts, handshakes, grips, baker's hats, green aprons, wooden submarines, DNA or sacred underwear?

Apparently not.

In Mormonism there's no such thing as a "smoking gun".

They just float along believing whatever feels good at the moment.

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Posted by: Finally Free! ( )
Date: October 01, 2012 05:27PM

Don't be silly... Of Coarse the temple ceremony is similar to Masonic ceremonies.

The Mason's got their ceremonies because the saw what was happening in the temple when they were building it in ancient Israel. They knew what they were seeing was holy and sacred and wanted the same "blessings" that the priests had so they copied it and passed on down the generations. But they got twisted over time, to include more, well, mason traditions that were wrong.

So, God, in his infinite wisdom, exposed Joseph Smith to the Masons so that he would learn their ways, and then he revealed the true ceremonies, correcting the errors so that now we have the pure ceremonies that are correct, true, holy and sacred (certainly not secret!)

So, there you have it... The explanation that I was given and sadly believed for a long time. Never mind that the masons only date their ceremonies back a couple hundred years, never mind that the temple ceremony, you know the "true", "everlasting", unchangeable ceremony, has been changed so many times that Joseph Smith wouldn't recognize it at all anymore. But this is the justification that at least some Mormon's give to allow themselves to continue to believe.

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Posted by: taketheredpill ( )
Date: October 01, 2012 05:56PM

Today, i just feel so exhausted from it all. It's all Bullsh*t.

And, I'm not quite free yet. I think my for my new marriage to work I'll have to go back. I'll have to turn off my brain and pretend along.

I don't know how much longer I can do it. I think if I do go back it will "HIT THE FAN!"

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