I'm currently rereading The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, and have reached the section where he argues that the word "prophet" was used in the OT to denote a poet or musician, not a future-teller. He makes a strong case, which I unfortunately don't have time to summarize now. I'm just wondering if more recent findings have done anything to vindicate him.

Not a Biblical scholar, but as I understand it a prophet was a spokesman but did not necessarily tell the future. At least that wasn't his only characteristic. I think Paine is at least partly right. There is a guy on Post M, named Dogger Dog who has an advanced degree in Biblical studies. Perhaps he could help you

Having done a quick scan of sources, I don't think Tom Paine could have been right. http://www.answers.com/topic/prophet

Can you cite the source for what he said, please?

"All the remaining parts of the Bible, generally known by the name of the Prophets, are the works of the Jewish poets and itinerant preachers, who mixed poetry, anecdote, and devotion together—and those works still retain the air and style of poetry, though in translation.[3]

"There is not, throughout the whole book called the Bible, any word that describes to us what we call a poet, nor any word that describes what we call poetry. The case is, that the word prophet, to which a later times have affixed a new idea, was the Bible word for poet, and the word prophesying meant the art of making poetry. It also meant the art of playing poetry to a tune upon any instrument of music.

"We read of prophesying with pipes, tabrets, and horns—of prophesying with harps, with psalteries, with cymbals, and with every other instrument of music then in fashion. Were we now to speak of prophesying with a fiddle, or with a pipe and tabor, the expression would have no meaning, or would appear ridiculous, and to some people contemptuous, because we have changed the meaning of the word.

"We are told of Saul being among the prophets, and also that he prophesied; but we are not told what they prophesied, nor what he prophesied. The case is, there was nothing to tell; for these prophets were a company of musicians and poets, and Saul joined in the concert, and this was called prophesying.

"The account given of this affair in the book called Samuel, is, that Saul met a company of prophets; a whole company of them! coming down with a psaltery, a tabret, a pipe, and a harp, and that they prophesied, and that he prophesied with them. But it appears afterwards, that Saul prophesied badly, that is, he performed his part badly; for it is said that an 'evil spirit from God[4] came upon Saul, and he prophesied.'

"Now, were there no other passage in the book called the Bible, than this, to demonstrate to us that we have lost the original meaning of the word prophesy, and substituted another meaning in its place, this alone would be sufficient; for it is impossible to use and apply the word prophesy, in the place it is here used and applied, if we give to it the sense which later times have affixed to it. The manner in which it is here used strips it of all religious meaning, and shews that a man might then be a prophet, or he might prophesy, as he may now be a poet or a musician, without any regard to the morality or the immorality of his character. The word was originally a term of science, promiscuously applied to poetry and to music, and not restricted to any subject upon which poetry and music might be exercised.

"Deborah and Barak are called prophets, not because they predicted anything, but because they composed the poem or song that bears their name, in celebration of an act already done. David is ranked among the prophets, for he was a musician, and was also reputed to be (though perhaps very erroneously) the author of the Psalms. But Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are not called prophets; it does not appear from any accounts we have, that they could either sing, play music, or make poetry.

"We are told of the greater and the lesser prophets. They might as well tell us of the greater and the lesser God; for there cannot be degrees in prophesying consistently with its modern sense. But there are degrees in poetry, and therefore the phrase is reconcilable to the case, when we understand by it the greater and the lesser poets."

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Age_of_Reason/Part_I/Chapter_VII

Let me add that THomas Paine was a traveling revolutionary and is not the final word on Biblical scholarship. Just saying



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2011 08:07PM by bona dea.

...going to a political cartoonist for History.

At least Paine was a hell of a pamphleteer.

Human

Human Wrote:
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> ...going to a political cartoonist for History.
>
> At least Paine was a hell of a pamphleteer.
>
> Human

Being partially responsible for two revolutions isn't bad. Damned trouble maker.These are times that try mens's souls..... Good stuff.

OK, it was BYU--although I somehow managed to overcome that speed bump and pull down a Pulitzer. (Go figure. Not struttin,' just sayin')

Oh, and since "Human" is such a history buff, here are a few tidbits:

Both Ben Franklin and Paul Revere were editorial cartoonists (Franklin owned and drew for his newspaper, the "Pennsylvania Gazette," where he did the famous "Join or Die" segmented snake cartoon that was used to rally the colonists during the French and Indian War and again against the Crown during the Revolutionary War.

Revere leaflet-bombed Boston with a cartoon on the Boston Massacre, likewise inspiring the colonists to resist England's imperialism and violation of citizen privacy rights).

And then there was Thomas Nast, a German-born cartoonist of the 1800s who eventually drew for "Harper's Weekly" and who Lincoln during the Civil War called his "best recruiting sergeant."

Political cartoonist Herblock of the "Washington Post' coined the phrase "McCarthyism," and Nixon vowed never to start his day reading his cartoons. We all know what happened to Tricky Dick.

So there, again.

You need to read up on your history.

Thank you very much. :)



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2011 09:03PM by steve benson.

What, ya goin' for the Benson record? How high is that, anyway.

'Political Science', eh? Well that's right up there on the oxymoronic scale with 'Biblical Science'. To each his own, I guess.

There's just no keepin' up with ya, Steve.

Cheers.

And you sound like one of those Mormons opposed to science.

At least you're not opposed to being human.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2011 09:06PM by steve benson.

Human Wrote:
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> ...going to a political cartoonist for History.
>
> At least Paine was a hell of a pamphleteer.
>
> Human

lol

Neither are most other people. Just sayin'.

Steve, I happen to agree with you, but it seems you might be implying that the point raised by Paine is moot--and it is not. If it's true that the Old Testament itself never even claimed these people were prophets (in the modern sense), then that means the Biblical apologists who try to argue that they *were* prophets (again, in the modern sense) are arguing against the Bible itself. Paine's attack is unanswerable, provided he drew the correct conclusion--and whether he did is exactly what I'm trying to find out.

Moses was a musician and/or a poet?

I don't recall the children of Israel's Exodus story mentioning that as the big selling point for them following him.

And besides, who knows if Moses even existed? There certainly is, for example, a paucity of convincing in-the-dirt evidence for the kind of Biblical wandering-in-the- desert tale under his supposed prophetic leadership.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2011 12:53AM by steve benson.

Proving I'm no biblical scholar and throwing caution to the wind.

"Navi", the Hebrew word most frequently translated into English as "prophet" meant to "bubble forth."

I'm thinking it originally described glossolalia, even today, seen as seen as a sign of the divine.

No doubt some of the writers of the books known today as the Prophets were wandering poets and troubadours.

Now did Issiah really wander the streets of Jerusalem with no clothes?

No, sorry. Glossolalia today is not seen as a sign of the divine, except by those who wish to call it that because they either don't understand it, or because they don't wish to acknowledge what it actually is.

It is not a miracle and it is not divine.

It is, however, often witnessed in those suffering from severe mental illnesses. So is one of its cohorts, automatic writing.

Both can be signs of incipient or latent schizophrenia, or of severe neurological damage/trauma to the brain. My mother in law had both, due to schizophrenia.

Everyone who witnessed it, insisted it was God speaking thru her, even priests in her church. She wrote a new Bible this way and believed that she herself was the sign of the coming apolocalypse and return of Jesus Christ--until she was medicated and became as close to normal as she can ever be.

Echolalia, too is one sign of a pretty significant neurological disease. Of several diseases, actually.

No need to look for extraordinary or magical explanations or justifications for something, when we already know what they mean or what the origins of that something already are.

Covering medical disorders in made-up God language, is so very harmful to the real people who have to suffer with them, and it is very upsetting to me.

Well, Navi is pretty good at bubbling forth.
"HEY! LOOK! LISTEN! HEY!"

The word prophet is used as a translation of the word navi in Hebrew. Navi means to proclaim. I have never heard that it means poet etc.

The role of the navi changed over time. Initially it was that of a spokesman for God. The navi would proclaim God's word. Later once apocalyptic writings began to be written (Daniel etc), the navi was then a forseer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2011 11:37PM by Gwylym.

Revelation 19 gives us a clue when it says

"The testimony of Jesus Christ IS THE spirit of prophecy" - To proclaim the gospel of Christ is the Spirit of prophecy.

This makes sense when you go out and see street preachers - a good street preacher doesn't prepare sermons but declares Christ crucified - He puts his total trust in the Holy Spirit leading him and giving him the words to preach at that moment in time.

See the beginning of 1 corinthians 2:1-2 - The gospel of Jesus Christ is what saves people - it connects with the sin and is the healing balm of spiritual sores and wounds - when we grasp this then we don't get side tracked with rubbish about evolution...etc - Just preach Jesus Christ crucified - God will give the increase when this message is boldly proclaimed.

Even if prophets for told the future so what? They were not unique. The Greeks had the Oracle of Delphi. Apparently the Oracles were like an ancient CIA. They had spies in various countries who would feed them information that aided the political prognosticantions. Surely the king of Judah would have had a similar network.

The Oracle of Delphi also probably had a bit of ethylene to help the creative juices;

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/08/0814_delphioracle.html

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?version=NIV&search=2%20Kings%203

2 Kings 3:15>
1 Samuel 18:10> biblehub.com
http://biblehub.com/1_samuel/18-10.htm

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=Saul+and+music&qs_version=NIV

Psalm 18:1>
Psalm 52:1>
Psalm 54:1>



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2015 01:19PM by nolacs22.

"vindicate him" ???

Gwylym and LuLu, above, are on the right track. Hebrew is a highly evocative language, rich in double meaning and puns, so "navi," meaning to "bubble up" and "proclaim" are both correct. The Hebrew word means both, and suggests more. The connotations suggest that a "navi" person is taken over by the Spirit of God, and simply cannot help himself ("bubbling over") by "proclaiming" God's word.

Exactly what happened in ancient times is not known, but their proclamations included song, poetry, trances and dreams, and even bizarre street theatre. (I vote that Isaiah did appear naked, LuLu. Weird in our culture, but nakedness was not so shameful in O.T. cultures.) Prophets were their cultures' eccentrics and radicals, such as Elijah standing up to Jezebel and Hosea marrying a prostitute. Future prognostication (foretelling) is depicted irregularly throughout the O.T. and N.T. and was a minor aspect of prohecy.

BookRatt, there is that school of thought that intense spiritual experience is ipso facto a mental aberration. Obviously, I disagree. But I acknowledge that neurological disorders often mimic the spiritual, and believe this occurs in modern glossolalia, seances, and many Christian Science "healings." You might be interested to know that Mary Baker Eddy (founder of Christian Science) participated in Spiritism when she wrote "Science & Health" (her "divine revelation"), through the mechanism of automatic writing. So I would say there is a confusing overlap between spiritual phenomenon and such disorders, but they are not always one and the same. I expect the atheists to take me to task on that.


All this gets us back to JS and successors. No, they were not prophets in any sense of the word. They proclaim, not in any "navi" sense of the word, but in a very deliberate and calculated manner. If they were prophets, they would willingly proclaim very controversial and unpopular oracles, and damn the consequences!


*Prophets were mostly men, but not always. Deborah (O.T.) and Anna (N.T., present at Christ's infant appearance in the Temple) come first to my mind.

I have read Age of Reason twice, and my opinion is that Thomas Paine is correct. I found his arguments logical and persuasive. The words poet and musician seem to have been replaced with prophet and prophecy, at least in the books of Samual, Kings and Chronicles. The text makes more sense when it is looked at that way. A small excerpt from the the quote above:

"The account given of this affair in the book called Samuel, is, that Saul met a company of prophets; a whole company of them! coming down with a psaltery, a tabret, a pipe, and a harp, and that they prophesied, and that he prophesied with them. But it appears afterwards, that Saul prophesied badly, that is, he performed his part badly; for it is said that an 'evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied.'"

I wish Age of Reason was more widely read. He was ahead of his time when it came to religion and the bible. He was vilified for some of the things he wrote and said, but his book Common Sense, published in January of 1776, was a huge factor in convincing the colonists to enter the revolution.

So was Theodore Roosevelt correct when he called Paine a "dirty little Atheist" ?

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
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> So was Theodore Roosevelt correct when he called
> Paine a "dirty little Atheist" ?

No. Paine was a deist.

This thread is missing the real point, that Prophet really means whatever LD$ Inc's MORmONISM needs it to mean in any given instance in order to validate the MORmON Brand of religion, which is the only correct brand / official God brand of religion and has been from the beginning.

MORmONISM tell us that God ALWAYS has a prophet on the earth, and that prophecy is as critical, and crucial and essential to the function of life on earth as water and sunshine. SO God ALWAYS has a prophet on the earth!!!!!! ......Well except for the times when God does not have a prophet on the earth, like the time that God lets slide by with out a prophet on the earth for about 1700 years, but that exception to ALWAYS will be dealt with a little later.

A prophet is somebody who receives revelation, by speaking to God and by God speaking to them, and who is the exclusive chief MORmON priestDUD administrator for God on earth in order to maintain clear cut exclusive authority (brand efficacy) for God, which is why in Latter day times the term "president" is used almost interchangeably with the term "prophet". Maintaining the proper exclusive priestDUD (brand) authority is the premier concern of God and God's church.


The title Prophet also definitely does assert the ability to foresee the future, because being able to predict the future is an ass kicking trump card when it comes to displays of unquestionable authority, and MORmONISM is all about exclusive priestDUD authority, so the words "seer, and revelator" are always automatically inferred as the word prophet is used, even if the latter two words of the title are not always actually spoken.

The other thing to remember is that MORmONISM is simply the latter day name for God's one and only true brand of religion, and religion means church. It is permissible to use "MORmONISM" as the name of God's one true church that has been in existence since the premortal existence as a tribute to Joseph Smith as the greatest (self proclaimed) prophet ever,because the Term "MORmONISM" alludes to just how correct and just how much of a true prophet in a fully future discerning sense that Joseph Smith really was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV1NYP60274

Sure, Adam may have merely seemed like the first of the great Old Test patriarchs, but once the true discerning vision of MORmONISM is applied to the situation, it becomes clear that just as much, Adam was also a prophet /president of the Church.
This is made clear by the fact that the bible says that Adam spoke to god and god spoke to Adam.

Adam was the first mortal man and the first president of "THE" church, a condition making it abundantly clear that MORmONISM has always been present with Humanity, since day one. The mantle of MORmON priestDUD authority was maintained unbroken as each of the grand patriarchs assumed the office of church President in succession.

From there on down, the actual line of Prophet / President priestDUD succession and authority is a little more murky but a person can rest ASSured that it is continuing because it has been so well established. And Just as much, a person can be ASSured that the line of authority is channeling through any major character/ figure head being mentioned in the Old Test at any given time like Abraham or Moses or Isaac or Jacob or Isaiah or Daniel or Jeremiah or Ezekiel,because even if its not completely certain /recorded / reported just exactly HOW the critical priestDUD chain of authority was maintained, it is completely certain that it was being maintained because that IS how God operates in an authority maintaining MORmON framework.

As a major character in the OT, David was certainly Prophet, President of the Church, and KING, Sure David, got sidetrack with screwing around with lots of women, but that did not DQ him as a prophet and church president. It just help us better understand and better sympathize with Joseph Smith as Joe confronted the same kinds of sex problems so frequently presented to a chruch president and prophet.

Sure there is a lot that I am leaving out, but world history and the bible is a big topic. please forgive me for not delving into the issue of Prophets / Church Presidents maintaining the sealing power of the secret magic temple handshakes ..... after all they are unmentionable.


By the time Jesus is born, exactly who has been and who is the President / Prophet of THE church, and exactly HOW the Prophet/ President authority chain has been strictly maintained is unclear in the scriptural account, but a person can be sure that there was President of THE Church on the earth at the time, because God always has a prophet on the earth, except in those times when he does not, and the time before Jesus birth is not denoted as a time when God does not have a prophet / president of the Church around.

It might seem like the President of THE Church would acknowledge Jesus -the messiah and the divine head of THE church being born and that it would be a very significant event, but somehow that does NOT happen, or, it is not significant enough to make it into the scriptural account .......even though other significant figure's -like the three Wise men, visits to see and acknowledge the arrival of the messiah are recorded.

Finally formally starting His mortal ministry as President of THE Church, Jesus was baptized, even though He technically did not need to be because Baptism is for the remission of sins and Jesus was perfect and sinless, but Jesus was baptized out of respect for established authority and formal protocol. Jesus' baptism is recorded in the scriptures ......however it was NOT necessary for Jesus to be ordained by or to get the hand off of the authority baton from the Prophet/ President of the Church at the time. THAT would be ridiculous.

It might seem like Jesus would be the greatest, most prominent earthly Prophet and President of the Church ever, just as He certainly is in divine context because Jesus is the ONLY church president and prophet in divine context, but greatest earthly Prophet and President of the church was role reserved for Joseph Smith.

It might seem like after establishing His church and defeating death that it would be a great thing and a great time for Jesus to hang out in mortality, continuing to perform miracles and bless humanity with His divine presence, and to give His church some unbreakable gang buster momentum, but NO. THAT is NOT how Jesus / God works. After Jesus' core mission of defeating death and atoning for every one else's sins was accomplished, it was time for Jesus to go on vacation and, just like the Gold plates, get off of the surface of the planet earth. After defeating death and atoning for all of humanity's sins, a guy needs a big vacation, Which explains why Jesus left planet earth and did not even bother with speaking to Prophets / Church Presidents for about 1700 years...... and even though it appears that Jesus is still too worn to proceed with His second coming, Jesus is really just postponing His return because the world Just is not rotten enough yet, and when Jesus does come back for round two, so unlike round one, He is going to do some major league ass kicking, killing and destroying, and for the Prince of Peace to carry on like that, Jesus needs to be totally justified, so Jesus is just waiting for the world to get really insanely evil, ripe with evil, in order to completely justify Himself in destroying so much when He returns, as that destructive action might otherwise be considered bad behavior from a loving God.

In the wake of a 1700 year absence of Jesus and His speaking to Prophets / church Presidents, it was only natural that Jesus' Church would be hijacked by the Devil, and would end up being the Devil's version of Jesus's church, Because the Devil NEVER takes a vacation like Jesus does, but the Devil has never had to do the heavy lifting like defeating death and atoning for all mankind's sins. So all of that was to be expected.


Finally the Devil's version of Jesus's Church got so bad that Jesus had to re-establish His true Church again, that meant Jesus ending His vacation and His speaking to a Prophet / Church President again. That is where Joseph Smith -the greatest earthly Prophet and church President ever, and MORmONISM came into play. God's true church - MORmONISM has been playing catch up to hopelessly apostate traditional Christianity ever since. What else could be expected after a 1700 year no show by Jesus. And it looks like MORmONISM NEVER will replace hopelessly apostate Catholicism as the foremost face of world Christianity. At first look, seeing how MORmONISM plays out as Jesus's Restoration of Jesus' True Church which can not compete with traditional Christianity at all in terms of raw popularity, it almost looks like the Devil has won, but that is not taking into account the time when Jesus will fully reclaim the world at His second Coming, a time when Jesus will overwhelmingly kick ass against His opposition, destroying all those that oppose Him and His true restored church with out hesitation or mercy, in much the same way that could be expected from the Devil, only it will be all right because Jesus is the one doing the burning, destroying and killing, NOT the Devil. That is going to be the catch up play for the prince of peace and His true church right there.


One thing is certain: Jesus ALWAYS has a Prophet / church President on the earth to carry on His work .......except for the times when Jesus does not.


When a person looks at the sheer majesty, dignity and eloquence of a MORmON President/ Prophet like Gordon BS Hinckley, then a person can certainly see why Jesus is so fond of the Prophet concept.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khD0d4FB3kk

MORmONISM: it makes perFUCT sense to MORmONS !!

. . . therefore proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that Mormon "prophets" are, in actuality, poets.