I need help and advice on how to help and advise.

Background: When my ex and I divorced, the kids were in elementary school. Up until junior high, all was well in the relationship with their dad, me, and their new step-mom. After their dad had another baby, the relationship changed. The kids were told they "weren't the baby anymore" and that "all the attention would go to the real baby." They weren't kidding. Whenever I picked the kids up from weekend visits with their dad, step-mom and young sibling, they would need to decompress from the events. The parents would frequently leave, for hours at a time, leaving the kids to babysit, and wanting a break when my ex and his wife would return home. When the kids wanted their own space, and the baby cried to be with them, the "teenagers" were reprimanded for not caring about their sibling.

On top of the constant babysitting duties, the kids were demeaned and belittled by their dad and step mom until one day, one of the kids snapped and ran away with a cell phone in hand. That kid called me and after I spoke with both my ex (who was furious) and his wife (who was surprisingly on my kids' side), the kids didn't want to see their dad for a while until he settled down. After that incident, their dad started parenting classes for the first time and returned to a therapist (that was two years ago).

Present Day: The verbal abuse continues, even though the kids are in college now. The other night, one of my kids called me on the phone crying, saying that my ex had turned around the idea of a gift this kid was intending to give him and made this kid feel guilty for not doing more. The kid responded by saying don't make this about what you're not getting, can't you see what I'm giving you? Still, the heartache that I felt for my kid after that incident just made my blood boil in anger towards my ex.

There have been enough good moments with their dad that offset the bad ones, but they don't know who they're going to get, the good dad or the bad one, each time they talk with him or stay at his house with him. I've sat behind the scenes, guiding the kids how to behave, encouraging them to take the lead which they've done extremely well. I haven't tried to "take them away" from their dad or talked shit about him to their faces, instead I've helped them know how to stand up for themselves since I won't be able to solve all of their problems in their lives. But I think I've made a grave error by staying on the outside for so long.

Advice Needed: I haven't interfered because I have no power over their dad nor do I want that power. I also have no influence in helping him see straight which has been demonstrated in personal discussions and phone calls on different matters. But I want to speak my mind somehow because this cycle of behavior just isn't ending (it's been five years now that he's been behaving this way towards the kids in our twelve year divorce). He's alienating himself from the kids and they're trying their hardest to stand up for themselves but also trying to make their relationship work. I want to write a letter, knowing his wife will understand, and hopefully that he'll take to his therapist since talking with my ex gets me nowhere.

Wise RfMers, what do you advise? Do I write a letter? Leave it in the adult kids' hands? What?

Desperately Seeking Advice

I wouldn't interfere. (I'm not in your place either so I can only give my opinion.)

To me they are adult children and it's long past your place to tell your ex how to parent.

At most I would attempt to give your children resources for dealing with the situation. One thing you may have them check out is Dear Prudence on Slate. I used to read her column more in the past than I do know, but I thought a lot of her advice on how do deal with difficult parents was very, very good.

There is NO excuse for that kind of abuse.
I would be tempte to contact child protective services and discuss it with them

Note that the kids are now college-age adults.

My ex paid very little attention to the kids after he burst out of the closet--and my kids were very aware. He continued to be a beast for a long time. Then he got a new partner about 9 years ago. The partner told him he was being stupid and needed to be kind to his kids (this partner has never had children). I know you don't have that option--but I will be forever grateful to this guy (and he is now one of my best friends).

My ex now is very good to his kids. He sometimes slips back into his old behaviors. His daughter calls him on it. His son gives him the silent treatment. But, for the most part, he is very good to his kids now.

Honestly, I'd be telling your kids to disengage entirely from their dad for a while. At this point, the abuse isn't going to stop until someone eliminates the interaction - and that elimination HAS to come from your kids. THEY need to demand respect and civility from their father, or inform him that they will no longer have contact with him because the abuse and intimidation will no longer be tolerated.

You, however, need to stay out of the confrontation. They are now adults. They need to make this decision and carry it out. Offering the kids a place of refuge after the fact for comfort and decompression is fine - but they need to stand on their own feet.

It will hurt, and it will be frustrating to go through, but the only way to end a cycle of abuse is to END it.

I agree that it's best for you to stay out of it and not contact your ex or his wife. The kids are adults and it sounds like you've given them the skills to stand up for themselves.

They should call their father on his abusiveness and tell him they will not tolerate it. If it continues, they need to follow through - stay away from him for a while. Hopefully, he will get the message and change his behavior for the sake of his relationship with his kids.

Since the kids are grown up, I would just break all contact with the ex. I would also let the kids know what you think of the ex, that you will no longer be in contact with him, and that any further relationship they want with him is entirely up to them.

I agree with the above advice that you not contact them.

You can help your adult children construct a conversation with boundaries that they express and then back up with action. For example,

"Dad, now that I am an adults, things have to change. I give you respect and I expect the same in return. I will not visit here if you belittle or threaten me. This is a reasonable request--do you think you can agree to be respectful?"

I suggest each grown child have their own conversation with him so that he doesn't feel ganged up on. Each should be prepared with an example of the kind of treatment they will no longer tolerate.

And then mean it. When he says something snide/cruel/critical, they say, "Sorry, that kind of treatment doesn't fly any more." and they walk out and drive away.

If he does not want to see them unless he can make them a target of abuse, they should be willing to let that relationship drop down into a "birthdays and Christmas" level of formality.

Best of luck

Anagrammy

PS. Practice with the kids, roleplay, because standing up to a bully is scary.

This.As the childre are now adults, I think it would help them -- in forming relationships of their own -- to have some tools for dealing with bullies/abusive controllers/people like their dad. Anagrammy's idea about helping them learn how to set boundaries is excellent.

I'd recommend some counseling for the adult kids (help them find one, go to group sessions with them) to make sure they grok the idea that it isn't about them. There is nothing wrong with them. They can be and are good enough already. Life is not about walking on eggshells, trying to predict what will make someone else happy. It's really hard to learn to not seek approval from an abusive parent. They have to understand that their dad isn't that way because of anything they did or didn't do, but because their dad is just the way he is. And nothing any of his children could do or say will satisfy him.

So they learn to set boundaries and seek approval of themselves from within. Professional assistance with that might be really useful.

My concern is the relationship modeling they've had -- what have they learned about how dads treat families and what to expect from husbands/dads? That's the only part that bothers me. Adults, in general, will figure out when a parent is toxic and limit to stop contact when they are good and ready.

I've been divorced for 20 years. I had two children with my ex.

I wouldn't have any idea what their relationship is with the ex. I figure it's none of my business. It's their relationship, not mine.

The only thing I know for sure, is that my kids think the ex's wife is a bitch. I don't know why they think that. I'm sure they have their reasons.

I appreciate all of your replies. I also talked with one of my kids on the phone tonight and mentioned for the first time that I want to intervene but am deciding to not get personally involved. My kid told me that they will handle issues and thanked me for the support but agreed that it's good I'm not talking with my ex about any issues.

Before I talked with my kid, though, I looked over your responses and agreed I shouldn't intervene. Yet I will continue to be a resource and a guide for them. Thank you for the insights and wise advice you gave me. Again, I really appreciate it.

One thing you CAN do is to keep pointing out to our kids that they always have the option of walking away emotionally.

Going back to an abusive/neglectful parent is not wise, but it may take your kids a while longer to realize this.

Just keep on being supportive.

It would be hard to imagine that everything is wonderful in this man's relationship with his new batch of kids,just wait till they become teenagers lol.

Eventually your own kids will see that he is a flawed human being and find other sources for approval and satisfaction in their lives.

The "kids" are adults. I have a saying that I think works every time: when you're had enough, you'll make a change. That applies to the "kids"! When they have had enough of their father's negative behavior, they will make a change, set some boundaries, or separate entirely. It's up to them.
They can use support for their decisions though.

If your kids are adults I see no reason to continue contact with your ex, especially if he is as you describe him.

I am counting down the days until my husband no longer has contact with his whack job ex. His son is now 18 (my stepson) and his ex has been HORRIBLE in every way since the day I met my husband 14 years ago...Shall we say control freak.

I think this is exactly the type of situation that therapy is designed for, and I would recommend that the adult kids go together as a group for two reasons.

First, if the therapist has any thoughts that the problem involves one of the kids, he will be able to see that in fact it's your ex that is the problem because all the kids will report similarly behavior by your ex.

Secondly, whatever strategies they come up with to deal with your ex's behavior will be used by ALL the kids. They will have the support of each other and your ex might get the message that he can't play one against the other (or you).