The great secret that was revealed to Paul is a gift of grace, a free gift. In God’s sight our sin debt has been settled, we stand in righteousness before him right now. He sees us seated with Christ in heaven, we are right now the praise of the glory of his grace throughout eternity. It follows logically that this secret must not be read into the four Gospels or into the book of Revelation.

Paul’s insistence upon the reality of our union with Christ, as having died and risen again in him. The Apostle unfolds to us, we died with Christ, our standing being complete and perfect in Christ, we cannot grow in this standing. We may grow in the knowledge, experience, and enjoyment of it, our life is the outcome of our belief.

If we are ignorant of this free gift, we are easy prey for every minister of righteousness who may rise up. Nothing more is needed to be added, their is not a ordinance on the face of the earth that can make us complete. We don’t need to pass a satisfactory examination, or take another class, we stand in righteousness before God right now.

Thanks for any insight.

Huh ????

may he touch you with his noodly appendage

ramen

How is it our fault for being imperfect, if God (assuming there was one) created us this way?

To quote a friend I talked to earlier today, "If I, as an imperfect human being, can forgive other people, why can't God forgive us without torturing his son?"

newnature Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...[there] is not a ordinance on the face of the earth
> that can make us complete. We don’t need to pass a
> satisfactory examination, or take another class,
> we stand in righteousness before God right now.
>

Yeah, I kinda agree with that estimation... though not
due to any particular atonement mechanism. If God
decided to forgive us before we were ever born, then
that "righteousness" adhered to us before we could
choose any path in life that leads away from God.

John Calvin had it right -- we are "saved" regardless of
our actions during this life on planet earth.

That still leaves open the matter of the non-elect; but
perhaps somebody more learned than I can explain that part.

UD

He was kind of a major douche.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2013 05:16PM by Raptor Jesus.

Which Paul was the douche? The former Saul of Tarsus or the frauds who wrote the pseudepigraphic 1 & 2 Timothy, Hebrews and other sh*t attributed to Paul in the New Testament?

Claiming that god spoke to him in person. And then conveniently Paul is supposed to boss all the other Christians around.

Bullshit.

Really, though, aren't they all liars? One dipshit pretended to have seen God, and the other folks pretended to be the guy who pretended to see God. It's all one big circle jerk.

How can you tell the difference?

If they said they saw Christ and started a church a long time ago - it's legit.

If they said they saw Christ and started a church recently - they are liars.

Are you referring to Mr. Frodo Baggins carrying the Sauron's ring away from the Shire?

I know all about it, I just watched the movie.

Thanks, Mr. Frodo.

Is anything required to accept the gift? If, as most Christians believe, one must accept Christ's gift in this life in order for it to be applied, it is an unjust gift, since the majority of humankind, due to no fault of their own, are born and die without knowledge or awareness of the gift.

I had a much longer response, but for some weird reason it was blocked by the content filters. I am totally baffled about what word in my post could have been banned. I am fed up with these hidden rules on posts. If there is a word that is banned in a post please figure out a way to let users know what it is and why rather than force the user to dig through some list.

I think I need to take a break from this site. So long, and good luck.

he lemon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is anything required to accept the gift?
...

Perhaps "gift" isn't quite the proper word here.

Perhaps "universal fact of existence" works better.

In other words, not a recompense given once the
bull is slaughtered, placed on the four-horned altar,
and burned. Not a reward, once the savor of that
sacrificial blood's smoke reaches celestial nostrils.

Just a simple reality, not far divorced from the laws
of physics. A reality that begins to make sense in
our own lives when we forgive others... and, ultimately,
forgive ourselves.

UD

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2013 07:04PM by homo sapiens maximus.

That's why Christ won't come back the second time until all men have been given the chance to hear the gospel...

At the rate the population is growing, Christ is never coming back...

newnature Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It follows logically

http://www.wayofthemind.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/infalliblebible.jpg

Exactly.

The OP lost me at "it follows logically."

All those Xtian memes sound so canned to me now- just a string of jibberish catch words (free gift, sin debt, perfect in Christ, secrets, obedience, yada, yada). There's no "follows logically" whatsoever.

I used to bow down and take Jesus' "grace" straight up my ass, and I thanked him for his "gift." Nowadays, though, if Christ wants anything from me, he can sit on my dry middle finger and fuck himself.

homo sapiens maximus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I used to bow down and take Jesus' "grace"
> straight up my ass, and I thanked him for his
> "gift." Nowadays, though, if Christ wants anything
> from me, he can sit on my dry middle finger and
> fuck himself.

Is there really a "Christ" who can appear and perform
that particular act with you?

I'm not especially fond of Plato and his ideas regarding
how we should live our lives and govern ourselves; but
I suppose that the old gent's bones reside somewhere in
modern Greece. We might dig them up and make the lower
spine fornicate with my middle finger... maybe.

Can we be so sure of Jesus, as we are, even, of Plato?

UD

Oh no, it's true: I was boned by zombie Jesus. I was inseminated by the Savior's spectre. I had gay sex with God. Literally. I'm 100% serious. Check the police reports if you don't believe me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2013 07:07PM by homo sapiens maximus.

homo sapiens maximus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh no, it's true: I was boned by zombie Jesus. I
> was inseminated by the Savior's spectre. I had gay
> sex with God. Literally. I'm 100% serious. Check
> the police reports if you don't believe me.

Oh, I believe alright. It's just that a definition for
my kind of belief will not be found in any dictionary.

Now, if you admitted to having created the human race,
along with Biblical Providence, I might be seriously
pissed off at that fact.

UD

Well, I guess that could be a valid viewpoint... If I believed there was a Jesus.

Read John 3:16 get back to me...

I don't accept that 'sin debt' exists, so it really doesn't matter.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2013 08:29PM by John_Lyle.

I don't regard myself as having any "sin debts."

Financial debts, I've got. Sin debts? No.

In what way is sin a debt? I have always paid cash on the barrelhead for most of my sins. I don't believe I owe anyone a thing for my sinful activities, with the exception of stealing.

Every little wrong I committed in childhood was paid for with severe beatings.

My fornications cost me restaurant bills, gasoline and heartbreak.

My failure to believe cost me most of my family.

My lies never failed to sting me in the ass.

Substances abused were purchased with cash.

So I probably owe a couple hundred duckies for pilfered items. I can make that up right now with petty cash.

donbagley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In what way is sin a debt?
...

Nobody (so far) has been convincingly able to explain
to me what "sin" really is. But, if I'm following the
theological arguments properly, then I suppose that such
"sin" must be a debt to oneself.

About the closest I can come to an illustration would
be the doctor who neglects to study brain anatomy in
school, cheats on his tests, graduates, is certified
and schedules me for a cerebral operation next week.

I'm the one who dies, due to his cheating himself; but
perhaps he's the one who pays the ultimate price for
that particular debt.

UD

Good one, Uncle Dale. Cheating that leads to an unnecessary death sounds like a hard one to work out. Glad I don't have that on my plate.

Sorry, your sins are NOT paid for.

Please send me $5 per minor sin and $25 per major sin to:

Baura Kale
P.O. Box 666
Auntie-Christ, HL

"sin" is what religionists say it is. It used to be things like being unwilling to torture and kill infidels, and still is in some places.

I have discarded the term "sin" and now use "immoral acts." Morality comes from within, not from above. It's doing things that will help or at least not hurt yourself or others.

"Good people do good things and bad people do bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."

rationalguy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
...
> "Good people do good things and bad people do bad
> things, but for good people to do bad things, it
> takes religion."

Or, perhaps the British Admiralty -- ever read Billy Budd?

UD

Paul was a mentally unstable wing nut who hallucinated regularly. I never trusted that guy.

As I understand “settled” debt, Christian doctrine teaches that Jesus’ resurrection proved that one lives beyond physical death. However, where you “end up” depends on the life you led.

All are born innocent. Very very soon, however, we “sin” (meaning, commit an act which does undeserved harm to someone (including to one’s self). Or, in other words, commit an act which causes “unwarranted/unjust” pain. This causes a debt with justice.

Everyone sins. Period. But, under grace, everyone--believers, or not--receives the benefits of God’s wisdom, guidance, love, and forgiveness (even if we don’t believe this, or know this, or care, or feel this love, etc. (i.e., the sun still shines on everyone, and rain falls on everyone, and sinners do not—instantly—suffer death (spiritual or physical).

If we give more than we get in life (in the good and bad we bring into being), our “debt” has been settled--something that wouldn’t be possible if it weren’t for God’s grace--for there is no way of getting one’s self out of the prison/predicament sinning otherwise would cause.

Jesus (per Christian doctrine) proved that men can live beyond the grave, including sinners. (Remember the sinner on the cross next to Jesus who acknowledged his penalty was “just”, and Jesus told him they would “this day” be together in heaven (regardless of this man having been a sinner).

My opinion: Even if there is no God, life is a school of learning. We learn what causes pain and happiness through life’s experiences, and our reaction to it. I hate pain-—even if it (supposedly) is for my own good (makes me “stronger”). But, it certainly does seem to teach me things (as in don’t touch fire; or run in front of moving cars; or hit someone-—and get hit back; or be unkind-—and feeling the results of being treated unkindly; or believe everything you're told by “God’s” ministers--the latter being something many of us have discovered the hard way.

Whether or not you believe in God, life’s experiences can teach us moral rules (that is, that injustices cause pain, and what brings “true”—lasting--happiness). Some people have difficulty accepting this, or fight it--but, nevertheless, IMO, the practice of true moral principles as a life style protects us from a lot of needless pain that most of us would rather not suffer.

pollythinks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
...
> All are born innocent. Very very soon, however,
> we “sin”...


So I was taught, as a Latter Day Saint.

Then I signed up for Methodist theological seminary and
had to spend a semester tracing out the Christian doctrine
of "original sin" (and had to read more Augustine of Hippo
than I could stomach).

Here then, we come to a major fork in the Christian
Via Dolorosa: Are we condemned for Adam's transgression?

Go ask Alice... er, Joseph Smith.

UD

Forgiveness, Grace, and God's Death Sentence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGkgmU9vG_o