Posted by:
Jesus Smith
(
)
Date: January 17, 2011 03:14PM
ina Wrote:
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> Hey, I'm talking to someone who is investigating
> mormonism and at first, she was completely sure
> that is was true and that she was feeling the
> spirit.
On feeling the spirit, relate some of this kind of info to your friend.
Most missionaries will bring up Moroni's promise about the holy ghost manifesting truth. How? They explain about D&C 9 where it talks about studying it out in your mind, then praying. If it be true, you get heart burn (bosom burning). If not, you feel stupid about what you were studying. You can claim to have gotten the stupor. At this point, most astute LDS will say that it isn't the spirit telling you it's false, but that you are a poor receptacle for the spirit and mistaken that for the stupor.
That's when I ask them to describe the heart burn. They invariably talk about feeling overwhelmed with feelings of love, of pure knowledge and a lifting feeling of the spirit. Some even go as far as claiming they've heard a voice or saw a light.
You can then explain that your problem with this is, most cultures and religious systems have these same experiences and signs. Hindus have the chakras, some of which have manifestations of elation, lifting and pure knowledge while meditating. Islam has the "hajj experience" and islamic transformation that are essentially just as strong or more than the mormon burning, as exampled by those who feel so emboldened as to commit suicide for their testimony. Other xtian churches have spiritual manifestations in feelings, tongues and miracles. Miracles claimed to catholicism, sightings of Mary, and even the tens of thousands having seen lights and visions at the zeitoun cathedral (Smith had his three witnesses, the Virgin her tens-of-thousands). Sathya Sai Baba is claimed to perform many many healings, materializations and other miracles. And the list goes on. How can you claim all these witnesses are false and mormons, who make up 0.2% of the world's population, are so much better? All these deeply felt spiritual manifestations are claimed to testify that each belief is true. A spectrum of beliefs that are often contrary to the others at some level.
So you have to ask, if such strong feelings and visions can testify of such diverse and opposing beliefs, how can you trust them?
Science has made progress showing where these spiritual, mood elevating, bosom burning experiences arise. Look up the work of Professors Jonathan Haidt, Kevin Nelson, Michael Persinger. Haidt found that moral elevation (swelling in the chest) may be related to oxytocin. Kevin Nelson has studied visions, near death experience and other manifestations and found a variety of triggers in the limbic system of the brain. Michael Persinger studies transcranial magnetic stimulation in what some dub the god helmet, which can manifest many spiritual type experiences at will. Are these experiences testimony of science or of what? Not of mormonism--since that never entered the equation of these studies.
For that matter, watching a movie can have a profound moving effect on people. food can alter mood, and medical science routinely alters mood, perception and even the experience of reality with drugs ranging from prozac to LSD. It doesn't require pharmacology to alter perceptions. Mental illness, brain injury or even just depression does it often without the victim's awareness. how can you believe or trust your feelings to tell you any truth?
No, spiritual experience based on warm chests and stupid thoughts are not truth meters.
More on visions and spiritual experiences....
Here's the problem with visions, miracles and healings: most cultures and religious systems have these same experiences and signs and miracles. Hindus have the chakras, some of which have manifestations of elation, lifting and pure knowledge while meditating. Islam has the "hajj experience" and islamic transformation that are essentially just as strong or more than the mormon burning, as exampled by those who feel so emboldened as to commit suicide for their testimony. Other xtian churches have spiritual manifestations in feelings, tongues and miracles. Saytha Sai Baba is a modern Hindu prophet claimed to have healed the sick, perhaps raised some dead, feed the hungry with miracle apparation-food, etc. Miracles claimed to catholicism, sightings of Mary, and even the tens of thousands having seen lights and visions at the zeitoun cathedral (Smith had his three witnesses, the Virgin her tens-of-thousands). Sathya Sai Baba is claimed to perform many many healings, materializations and other miracles. And the list goes on. How can you claim all these witnesses are false and mormons, who make up 0.2% of the world's population, are so much better? All these deeply felt spiritual manifestations are claimed to testify that each belief is true. A spectrum of beliefs that are often contrary to the others at some level.
Are these miracles even real, even if not owned by the Mos?
Are healing real or something generated in the mind (a reverse of psychosomatic pathology)?
Are testimony, bosom-burnings and spiritual manifestations from god, or just our minds?
Research about the Templeton foundation (a religious org) who've done very careful studies to see if prayer can elicit a great statistical average of medical recovery/healing than controls.
http://www.templeton.org/newsroom/press_releases/060407step.htmlAnd then ask yourself, if the evidence against simple prayer being completely ineffective isn't enough, why does god hate amputees? It's the most valid question to ask on the subject of miracles.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/So in the end, feelings, even strong ones inducing visions, are not truth meters. They are just as varied and confusing as every opinion out there. The mormons claim a monopoly, but they are just one of many exploiters of emotion to their cause.