There I said it. That will probably generate a lot of judgment from friends, family, and the people on this board. But I said it. When I'm not in agony I'm just miserable. I don't believe we have full control over what we truly want. I've already proven to myself that I can't be happy when I'm not living authentically. So rather than suppress my human feelings, I want to celebrate and embrace them.

My TBM brother asked how I will raise my children without the mormon church to protect them from ruining their lives before they even start living. It was painful to think, but not be able to express, that the mormon church IS what took away my life before I could start living.

I don't think a day went by on my mission where I didn't talk about marriage with other missionaries. And I thought about it even more. I was obsessed. We all were. The worst part is, we didn't think much about the individual PERSON we would marry, or the unique relationship we'd have. We were obsessed with the idea of marriage itself. Marriage is just the next step for the obedient, honorably returned missionary. The sooner the better. Anybody will do.

The church enabled my mentality of focusing on marriage and not the person even more with insidious teachings that "Any righteous man and any righteous woman can have a perfectly happy marriage", and a patriarchal blessing that claimed I had a soul mate and promised I would marry her.

And to top it all off, they sped things up by brainwashing me from birth to truly believe that ANY form of sexual activity outside marriage whatsoever (including even thoughts) would invoke the wrath of an angry god.

So as a returned missionary, marriage was expected of me. I knew I had to get married to secure my ticket to the top of the Celestial Kingdom. I believed it when they told me I wouldn't continue progressing (a big thing that was drilled into me on my mission) until I did. I knew any woman would do just as well as any other, but in my case it didn't even matter because whoever I married was guaranteed to be my soul mate! And I was so sexually frustrated from my totally unnatural celibate state that I frantically ran to the altar with the first girl I could get into a relationship with. All before my one-year-back-from-the-mission mark.

I wasn't thinking about the LIFETIME we were vowing to spend together. I didn't know that in the real world marriage is a huge COMMITMENT and SACRIFICE. I ignored the red flags that the two of us weren't a good match. All I could think was "Mission accomplished. This is the moment I've been waiting for my whole life. I successfully obtained my final priesthood ordinance. And afterward I get to have SEX!"

Fast forward several years, two children, and one apostasy later.

My wife and I are both unhappy. Our relationship has never been fulfilling for either of us. Neither one of us is, or ever has been, the type of person the other would choose as a friend. We don't have similar interests, goals, or aspirations. We rarely have engaging conversations. We're exhausted from raising the kids. We've had our ups and downs, but she will admit that she became depressed when we got married, and has never since been as happy as she was before. I am a miserable robot going through the motions in a life that's completely void of color and excitement. I'll admit to her that we aren't a good match. Maybe we should just accept that we were conned, cut our losses, and move on. She believes she's doing everything she can to change and make it work, and I need to step up my game and change too. Maybe so. We went through couple's counseling for several months (with a real professional, not a bishop) and it did absolutely nothing for me.

I love my wife. I have nothing against her. I care about her. I think she's a wonderful person. She's beautiful. The only thing she ever did wrong was agree to play mormon fairy tale with a man (well, boy at the time) that she couldn't be in love with, and who couldn't be in love with her back. The only reason we're still together is because of our children. Though she's now exmormon, she was raised to be a good, dependent mormon woman who doesn't acquire the necessary skills to earn a real living and stays home with the kids instead. I can't throw them out in the cold. They need me.

But every day that passes feels like one more day thrown away from my one-and-only life. My single sister shares with me all the exciting things going on in her life. I'm happy for her but it's painful to think that I was denied those same opportunities. The other day I met a woman on a plane flight and ended up having a 3-hour conversation with her. The kind where you're in such rapport you keep interrupting each other and spinning off new threads and the plane's on the ground before you even know what happened. But I did tell her I was married and I didn't ask for any contact information when we went our separate ways. It's sad because my wife and I have rarely if never had such a conversation. Even during our short (and I mean SHORT) "courtship", our conversations were forced. We both deserve better.

My wife has made it very clear that she wants to do everything in her power to make this marriage work. If it's going to end, I'm going to have to put my big person pants on and step up and be the "bad guy".

Now I'm blathering. Somebody type something so I can read it.

Life is too short to remain unhappy. If you stayed in the relationship, that would be a disservice to you both. You can still be a #1 Dad. But you will be happier this time and your kids will notice the difference. Go for it! You will be just fine and so will your kids.

Damn man, I feel for your, your story is heartbreaking. I wish I had something useful to say, but it appears like you have a clear understanding of your situation and are attempting to improve it while causing the least damage possible. Bravo, for that. I'm not so black and white as to say divorce is never a good solution, perhaps yours is one such case. Always keep your children in mind, with the choices you make from here on out. Best of luck.

Have you sat down with your wife and actually talked to her about this stuff specifically? Does she actually know what is bothering you? If you two have not communicated exactly the issues at hand they won't resolve themselves. Maybe it is time to schedule a day once a week where you two can go out and do some of these fun things you are wanting to do. If you do not tell her what needs to be done differently, she cannot really help on her end. Paying a sitter to watch the kids once a week for a day so you guys can have time to do things you usually do not do might be what you need. Encourage conversations that you do not normally have with her. I have had problems in my relationship in the past, and one day I decided to break down those doors and have uncomfortable conversations, and it helped. We had to change some things, do things we did not normally do for ourselves. The best thing you can do is be 100 percent honest with your wife, make some time for the two of you to do things that maybe both of you have been craving to do. Get out and rekindle that relationship. She may have been super mormon in the past, but their may be another person waiting to get out, and you need to give her that nudge.

If she's not willing to do any of this, then maybe it is time to move on.

People can change. People can fall in love. Don't say the two of you "can't" love each other.

This may sound harsh, but you sound like you are really focusing on how much fun you could be having right now if only you were free and single. That kind of self-confirmation bias will only convince you that you need to leave.

I sense that both of you have a lot of unexplored territory as individuals and a couple. You don't have to get a divorce to go exploring it. How do you "know" you have nothing in common until you start engaging that vast, wild territory that exists outside the kitchen, the laundry room, and TSCC?

You say neither of you would choose the other as a friend, but how do you know without doing any of the things friends do with one another?

Dance naked in the kitchen some night while listening to Italian music. Get relatives to tend the kids and go somewhere neither of you have ever been. Each of you go take a class or join a group for something you've always wanted to do or learn.

Perception is everything. New experiences can change you, her, and the way you two think about everything.

I agree here. My wife and I aren't terribly compatible with our hobbies and interests, but the fact that we do them individually, doesn't bother us in the least. I'm extremely active(rock climbing, mountain bike, lots of sports) and my wife enjoys reading, sewing, classic movies. Maybe its just the one activity we really really enjoy together... :P

Anyways, don't assume that because your individual tastes are different, that it makes you incompatible.

I completely understand. I'm in pretty much the same damn boat and it seems to be sinking under me. We either be 'a good guy' and remain miserable or be 'the bad guy' and have a shot at happiness maybe somewhere down the road...

I want to leave... I know I need to leave... but it's so hard. I was the good Mormon girl who stayed home and didn't develop any marketable employment skills. I do love him but I'm not in love with him, and we had incompatibility issues from the start. I couldn't really see it then because everybody kept telling me "any two righteous people can make it work". But now? Now I know I wouldn't have married him if I had been ExMo back then.

You've got a great handle on it and your analysis appears to accurately describe how you got here.

So what to do now?

First, your wife is scared. She is a woman and a mother, so safety and security come high on her priority list. Perhaps you hang in there a few more years and support her through school to become independent. It will help you both long term to know you didn't bug out leaving her high and dry.

Your children and both your families will appreciate that more than you will know. Conversely, if you do cut and run, you will never live that down.

My second thought is to do whatever it takes to change your attitude about your wife. So much of life depends on attitude and perspective. Marriage and relationships in general are a grind...IF you let it sink to that level. It doesn't matter if she were your true soul mate, the currents of life are ever present and constantly trying to push your relationship into boring, grinding territory. It's just the way it works.

Wishing the best for you and your family.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2013 02:03PM by iflewover.

Wow what a tough situation. I'm afraid I have no advice.

What I read is a man that feels he is where he is because he followed the church plan. He doesn't love his wife because he didn't marry her out of authentic love. Worse, they've grown apart. Reading between the lines, I see him resenting that he didn't get to live an authentic life, including experiencing different partners and other life adventures.

to the OP:
Yes, you were cheated out of a life that does have more to offer. Yes, you deserve to have experiences that were taken from you by subterfuge. However, you do have children and you should do everything you can to be responsible to them, including paying the alimony and child support that is fair.

Don't feel guilty for wanting to have a true life.

Now, some difficult questions: If your wife were to leave the LDS church and decide she too wants to experience a much richer life, could you then grow together and then experience much of what you want? Be honest in answering this question. What experiences do you want that, no matter how she changed, you couldn't get? Are those experiences so important to you that you will make this move?

Great post and insightful questions. I hope the OP really takes time to consider them and answer them honestly.

Except the part about her leaving the church; she is out as well he mentioned.

Attitude and perspective.....they are game changers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2013 02:17PM by iflewover.

I would definitely stick around long enough so that she can get some life skills to support herself.

There are worse things in life than getting a divorce. I would put being in a lonely relationship as one of them.

I think I know how you feel. Filed for divorce recently. She is a wonderful person, I still love & miss her, but I needed more than what she could give.

If she is willing, counseling may work. It would certainly be worth it to try...it is possible with time & the right actions the both of you can improve the relationship - it can work.

But with that said, I agree that life is too short not to be happy. And you should be with the one that you are most happy with. The difficult part is knowing when to say "I have had enough, I can't do this anymore" and then leave. It's even harder leaving it behind.

For me--looking back, I did give up so much by not marrying the guy I wanted to at age 20 and then marrying a "righteous" man in the temple--who happened to be gay. Had a set of twins. He left when they were 10, started cheating when they were 1-1/2. The guy I wanted to marry came back into my life when I was about 48. We've been in a relationship since then.

You know what--I love him with all my heart, but it also gets boring, daily grind, blah, blah, blah--and then you throw into the mix his kids (who I want nothing to do with and they want nothing to do with me). My kids tolerate my boyfriend barely. He wants them to like him.

We are having a party for my daughter's college graduation, my family, ex's family, my daughter's friends. And there is the boyfriend. I KNOW I won't attend his kids' weddings. They are elitest brats.

Sure there are many good things about this relationship, but even my ex says that he wished he had stayed (I had given him all the freedom he wanted to do whatever)--and raise our kids together, be friends for life, and then all these other complications wouldn't be part of our lives. It is really life sucking if you want to know the truth.

I'd go for safe, secure, comfortable, peaceful. I love my boyfriend, but once you have kids and break up the family, there are so many complications that come into play. Believe me, I'd have preferred to stay in my marriage for the rest of my life.

Yes, you have children to consider, but I don't agree with those who say just hang in for a few years and maybe things will change. Why would anything change?

You need to make a life for yourself, and your wife needs to make a life for herself whether you stay together or not. You both need to explore how to be the persons you want to be. If she's been dealing with depression, there's a good chance that she has been suffering as well and internalizing the blame. Both of you were screwed over by a manipulative, self-serving, blood-sucking organization.

So take your power back (both of you) and decide you're either going to make things a whole hell of a lot better, or you're going to part on the best of terms.

I'm so sorry for the place that you are in right now, and I hope that you'll both find the strength and the courage to find that better place.

First, good for you for being honest. It is not something easy to say, or feel out in the open. Hiding it is harder after awhile, and it becomes so necessary to be authentic so you, and your wife can be happy.

Putting on my big girl pants and telling my ex that I wanted out was the hardest thing I ever thought I would have to do.... Of course, I didn't have kids, so that made it a lot easier. However, looking back now.... the hardest part was LIVING that lie for so many years. We never loved each other we were just doing our "duty". Even after this admittance to each other, he still couldn't even talk about divorce, because of the stigma, he suggested counselling, bishop, even having kids to fix it... I put my foot down eventually (though I have to admit it took some prodding from him he gave me an ultimatium, "Kids in 2 years NO Excuses, and an answer by Nov. 23rd. Period." Yeah... I know.)

In the end, it was the best thing I have ever done. He was remarried to a good mormon in less than a year and has 2 kids now. I am happier.

I should say too, my dad stayed married to my mother even though I knew all my life they were only in for the mormon reasons. They never had sex (he told me after he remarried) and they fought ALL THE TIME. When I was 8 they had such a huge fight my mother left the house, I actually hoped he would never come back, they would divorce and I would live with my dad. It wasn't that my mother was horrible, it was that she was unhappy and sick. It took her dying for my father to finally admit he was unhappy and remarry.


Though, none of this helps you now I know.

In the end, thank you for sharing. You confirmed what I was told by my never mo BF right before I started dating my ex. That mormon men only saw a woman, not THE woman they married. I would never be seen for me, just a body, a covenant, and a desire for sex. He was so right... thanks for confirming that mentality for me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2013 02:29PM by intjsegry.

If all that is as accurate as possible and your wife really is as miserable as you are, then I see no reason why the two of you can't come up with a mutually beneficial agreement to part ways as friends and co-parents. I see no hint of any reason either one of you should carry resentments or contempt and the relationship seems otherwise healthy -- in terms of trust, respect, commitment, communication. You seem to be on the same page except she can't accept that the marriage shouldn't have ever taken place in the first place and I can understand why she'd want to be steadfast in her commitment. So cut the woman a check and help her find a way to support herself, come up with an even-steven custody co-parenting (HELP EACH OTHER) team work agreement and go find better matches for yourselves.

Life is short; I say pull the trigger on it before the resentment and contempt replaces caring and empathy for one another.

I find nothing noble in the popular idea that allowing your emotions to dictate your actions (in this case causing you to tear your family apart thereby crushing the world of your children) is labeled "living an authentic life".

You say you love your wife. Love is about doing. You have your children in common... how about that for a start.

It's unfortunate that Mormonism ruled your earlier life and forced you into making decisions you now regret. Allowing your present life with your family to be thrown away like so much trash because you are convincing yourself there is something heroic about following your base desires and emotions is just pitiful.

You say you love your wife. Make your marriage better; work at it harder, stay with your family; put all your effort into them. Let your head rule your emotions and do what is best for the children by putting all your energy into giving them a loving home and a mother and father who care for one another. That is being noble and grown up!

I would alter my statement above slightly- if you love her, and she loves you... there is a huge difference.

If it is just about mormonism making you feel like you might have missed something, and you want to try it and see, that isn't a good enough reason to leave someone you love, and who loves you.

My situation was what it was because we both admittedly only married because of mormonism, not at all because of love, and we didn't love each other in the end... just were friends.

If the family is solid, but mormon ideals are causing a rift and a lack of respect, then counselling may be helpful... as long as it is not an LDS counselor.

Yeah, what they said. +1000

Do you HAVE to divorce her to visit new places, try a different job, learn a new language, hang out with friends, engage in self-improvement, read books, play a sport, expose yourself to new ideas, volunteer at the local food pantry, help the homeless, or learn stuff?

I bet she would LOVE to do some of those things, too, if she had the chance. How do you know she's really even the person you've decided she is, especially if the marriage is set up so that she also has had zero opportunities for fun, growth, and personal development?

What does being authentic mean to you? Is it about being able to go anywhere, anytime, unfettered by responsibility? Or is it about serious personal growth and development, the kind that only you can decide you want and that happens in your head and heart, no matter what your external circumstances?

This stood out in blazing neon when I read your post:

"I love my wife. I have nothing against her. I care about her. I think she's a wonderful person. She's beautiful."

Are you sure your not displacing some of that anger at TSCC onto your wife?

Well, for one thing no one has the right to condemn anyone else for decisions THEY are making about THEIR lives!

Isn't that one of the main problems with the Mormon church (and by extension, any church that seeks to control the lives of its members)?

You can offer insight, give advice, express an opinion. But condemn? Never.

That is such a depressing story. I hope that you and your wife can figure out a resolution amicably. Remember, what is best for the kids may not be what you've been taught all your life is best for the kids. I know I have a few vestigial blind spots left over from the church.

Good luck. Wishing you the best.

You'll find that most relationships are not bliss on a minute by minute basis but rather a set of shared goals and confidences that come through being able to discuss those goals with one another. A man and a woman are rarely going to be best pals in the sense that they like doing what the other one is doing. Maybe you need more in your life but it is not another woman and another marriage. Maybe you need a friend. A friend to share something you and he like doing together. Life is more than a wife or a husband. If that is all you have then your problem is that you are not expanind the boundaries of your life. You are the only one who can do that.

At a time when my marriage was in trouble, a counselor that I was visiting recommended this book:

We: Understanding the Psychology of Romantic Love by Robert A. Johnson

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_8?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=we%20understanding%20the%20psychology%20of%20romantic%20love&sprefix=we+under%2Caps%2C218&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Awe%20understanding%20the%20psychology%20of%20romantic%20love

I suggest that both you and your wife read the book (independently) and then have some serious discussions about it. It will help the OP get in touch with reality, which IMO he really needs to do.

Yes, absolutely think of your children first; however, thinking of your children first does not preclude divorcing (as a couple of posters above me have seemed to imply). Children need *happy*, healthy, and *sane* parents. They do not need resentful, bitter ones.

I am a child of divorced parents - and believe me when I say that as life-altering as that experience was, I wish they had done it much, much earlier. Divorce does not doom children, nor does it mean that someone is selfish, "throwing a family out like trash," abandoning responsibility or any other myriad of responses that I've seen (not just on this board, but IRL as well). My parents "stayed together "for the children" for as long as humanly possible, until it reached a boiling point and broke in a torrent of abuse - emotional, verbal, and finally physical. My brother started on drugs *while my parents were still together* to escape the hell that was inside our picture-perfect family. I prayed every night to die.

Children can absolutely sense when parents don't love each other, and I blame *that* - moreso than anything else in my life - for my screwed up attitude about love. The divorce had jack-all to do with it. The fighting, the screaming, the silent treatments, the apathy, the resignation, the walking-on-eggshells feeling, the certainty that my parents wanted to be anywhere BUT home with the other - that was far more traumatic than the absolute relief I felt at my parents finally living apart. The only part of the divorce that hurt was the insult slinging I heard after - by *both* my parents. The "your Mom/Dad is XXXXYYYY" followed a few minutes later by "you're so much like your Mom/Dad." Make sure you don't do that. If you must vent, do it somewhere where your children are absolutely certain NOT to hear you.

Be honest with your wife. It might come as a relief to her. Open communication between the two of you, and come to a mutual agreement for the benefit of the children. Can you stay long enough to put her through a quick certification at a local community college so she has some job skills? Does she even *want* a job? Can you afford to have a small apartment nearby to slowly transition to living full-time there? Can you both come to an agreement with regards to child-support, alimony, and custody arrangements, and not drag out a court battle for months/years on end? Act like adults and your children should be fine.

You've said that you've tried couple's counseling and it hasn't worked. Don't be afraid to continue the counseling on your own in order to navigate this the best you can.

I've heard that most people (maybe just women?) seriously consider divorce every three years during a typical marriage. Maybe you're in the bottom of the cycle at the moment? Most couples who make it are happy in the long run. :)

Hope this makes you feel better!

Does the serious divorce consideration last longer than a year?

All of a sudden and before you know it, you are older wishing for what might have been and realizing it never will be. You are too tired from the struggle, too financially invested,and too weak in your heart to do something/anything to change your misery,so you continue in the daily plod trying to make everyone else's life less stressful ,while yours is tied in knots and empty of wonder. Talk openly to your wife and make a decision before days turn in to years and what could have been will never be. Settling is never optimum. Hold your kids close and show abundance of time and love while you figure it out.