Hi everyone!!

Someone wanted to read what I thought about Jesus and Slavery and I would love to! BUT, I want permission that I may speak on this. So, I will check back in awhile to see if I have the permission! :) Thank you so much for your interest and PLEASE don't think I am preaching, because most may not believe and that is 100% okay. You choose your path too! :) Everyone of you are WONDERFUL!

In the previous post you basically tried to lie your way out of the question by only citing references to the indentured servitude of hebrews AND YOU OUTRIGHT IGNORED all the references to the enslavement of non-hebrews.

Feel free to respond to the following passages from your holy book:

Slavery in the bible:

"However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way." (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

See the distinction?!

"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

See, it's alright to beat your slaves as long as they don't die according to the bible god.

As far as your quoting timothy, try these NT passages on for size:

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ." (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

"Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them." (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

I'm really curious how someone who calls herself "love" can even attempt to justify the owning of another human being as property.

Please don't try the same tactic you tried on the last thread. It won't work. We're talking about slavery here, not indentured servitude of hebrews.

Since you're taking your time, a few more passages I'd "love" for you to respond to:

"They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves." (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

I wonder how you'd feel about the god of the bible if you were a midianite and your entire family, including yourself, were killed except for your virgin daughter who was kidnapped and enslaved, raped, and taken as the property of some hebrew whose leader claimed to speak for a supreme being?

What kind of mother would ok with that? It's disgusting.


Further:

"So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes." (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)

So here the bible god is a-ok with not only mass-murdering a group of people with the exception of women who would become sex-slaves, but he's also a-ok with kidnapping other innocent women to make up for his bad math.

That's just "love"-ly...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2013 11:15AM by kolobian.

You seem to be a little off. The Lord does not condone slavery in this text, rather Timothy is teaching a lesson on the love of money and he uses what is very common in literature and in public speaking, he wants to broaden his audience. So weather you are a rich man, OR a servant, the lesson applies to all. You are trying to twist or distort the meaning of this. As far as the OT is concerned, Jesus fulfilled the law, the OT is full of flaws and ideals of men, as the people were not under the full understanding of the Lord.

LOL! Context!

I love it. You "almost" make a rational argument, but it falls short when you realize that jesus is the god in the old testament who endorsed the slavery in the first place.

As far as fulfilling the law, your god jesus says the following:

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Hold on a sec, let me look outside to see if heaven and earth have passed away.... nope, looks like THEY'RE STILL HERE!!

So please try again.

Your god jesus endorses slavery, then later on addresses slaves and NOWHERE does he EVER say slavery is a bad thing, and the law still hasn't been fulfilled because heaven & earth haven't yet passed.

This is exactly how white christian slave-owners justified kidnapping africans and forcing them to build up the south. That's exactly how white christian slave-owners justified forcing their slaves to become christian, because the god of the bible tells slaves to obey their christian masters.

I thank you..

A question for you, almost: If you don't believe your bible why should anyone else?

Oh yeah, another question: why did you focus on that one scripture and ignore all the others?

Do you believe it's ok to own another human being as property? yes or no



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2013 12:12PM by kolobian.

unlike you, I don't believe that God himself wrote the entire bible, but men that tried their best to follow Him did. So you can continue to cherry pick verses out and hold them to some absolute clause, but it doesn't work for me as I don't hold the bible as absolute nor infallible. Doesn't diminish the role of Jesus one bit for me, but thanks anyway. For someone who doesn't believe in God, you sure quote him like he is real, or least try to justify his words to disprove him. When in reality, He never authored any of this, it was all second or third hand text, written many years in some cases after the actual events.

that wasn't even almost a coherent response...

So basically, when the bible says something you don't like then the authors were "speaking as men" or it wasn't "translated correctly" and when they get something right it is the "word of god."

You do know this is a RECOVERY from mormonism website, right?

Lets just say, what it contains today is a far stretch from it's authors original intent. And no, they were not all inspired to write in it, let alone proclaim what followers of Christ should be.

That's an astonishing assertion considering there are no original manuscripts to compare them to and all the original writers are dead so you can't ask them what their intent was.

It sounds like you don't want to admit that the god you worship is less moral than you are, which begs the question why you worship such a being when the only resource available to you that references that being is, according to you, mostly made up...

not true, but the writers of the books in the bible, no question are less moral than we are today. one reason why i don't rely on the bible to be used as a moral compass today. faith comes from more than just reading a book.

(Yawn) Special Pleading is a logical fallacy, y'know?

Unless you're willing to point out which scriptures are god-given and which aren't you're just copping out in a cowardly way.

Please answer the following question: Do you believe in jesus? yes or no

If yes, how would you know about jesus if not for the book you claim is made up?

If no, why are you posting on this thread at all?

yes I do. But learning about someone, and developing faith in someone are two different things for me. Yes, most would not know of Jesus if it were not for the bible, but there are other ways to develop faith in a higher power than just reading a book. The bible is not my primary source for spirituality, but it has influenced my search in life for it. I just don't use it anymore as I recognize it for what it is.

How do you know the parts that reference jesus aren't just as made up as the parts that reference slavery?

What specific mechanism are you employing to distinguish between the made up parts and the not-so made up parts?

it wouldn't make sense for someone of your superior intellect. I am just a simple person, no advanced degree, just a business major.

So I will say it again, I don't believe Jesus wrote the bible. It references him, and I try to treat others the way I want to be treated, and having faith in a higher power than myself, helps me stay grounded. I have not said it is for everyone, yet when I posted on this, multiple posters jump on wanting to convert me to their ways, just ironic is all coming from the background of most on here with the LDS church. Some have left the faith, but have kept the same habits of needing to convert others I guess.

<<So I will say it again, I don't believe Jesus wrote the bible.>>

Well, we can most certainly agree on that.

Well there you have it. Infallible except when it isn't. That is a precarious soapbox that you have climbed onto.

for me it is a guide, but I don't refer to it often as my faith is not founded in a book

http://plato.stanford.edu/

This is my guide, I don't refer to it as much as I should.

What exactly is your faith based on?

Golden Rule

According to the golden rule I could beat you to death for calling yourself "almost" on the grounds that I would want to be beaten to death for calling myself "almost."

It's fools gold..

of course, you can justify anything however you want to. doesn't show you understand what I am talking about, but does show your intolerance of others who don't believe the way you do.....strange, where I have seen this behavior before???

If I would rather have my toenails pulled out than be Mormon again does that mean that I could pull your toenails out to keep you from being Mormon?

If I went down that path again, I would hope someone would go to those lengths to stop me. so yes, you would fit my description.

Excuse me, I need to go to the store to buy some equipment. I am going be pulling the toenails of everyone in my family. If they resist I am just going to claim that I am following the golden rule.

nailed it

like the rest of religious homo sapiens, you faith is founded on your fear of death...

don't consider myself religious as I no longer belong to a religion after leaving Mormonism, but yes I do consider myself spiritual

like the rest of "spiritual" homo sapiens, you faith is founded on your fear of death...

maybe, but as I don't consider my pending death each day I believe it has very little to do with it, but I would be lying if I said it doesn't give me some reassurance for a life after this one. Energy lives on is my hope.

This is how I view it. It is a history of stories of people who lived a long time ago and interpreted God as they thought him to be based upon their life experiences. Men wrote a variety of experiences and stories which were all compiled into one big book and which came from different cultures and lands. I believe it contains inspiration and a window into how people thought about things back in days past. They speak from the frame of reference of the day. The Old Testament laws, according to Jesus in the New Testament, are fulfilled with his death on the cross and no longer apply. He boiled them down to two: love The Lord your God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself. The God of the Old Testament seems angry as opposed to the way Jesus spoke of God. All of it is man's view of God much like we have options of how we can view him. I view God as love. God is love. Things done from pure love is God demonstrated. We don't know. This is my personal concept of God like those of the Old Testament and New Testament had theirs.

Thank you both VERY much! I have glanced through your responses because I am in a meeting. You may end up opening my eyes. :) Thank you VERY much!

This is what bothers me. We "may" end up opening your eyes?!

Earlier you went to one of your christian apologetics websites because I referenced slavery in the bible. Your christian apologetics website (as they always do) tried to confuse you by only citing scriptures relating to the indentured servitude of hebrews so that you could feel justified in maintaining your belief that your god isn't a maniac.

I pushed back with references to actual slavery in the bible, the enslavement of non-hebrews as endorsed by the bible-god.

You come back and say "thanks" and that we "may" end up opening your eyes.

No ma'am. That's not how this works. Now that you are confronted with real scriptures from your holy book endorsing slavery you must make a choice:

A. You're ok with the owning of other human beings as property because your book says it's ok

B. You're not ok with the owning of other human beings as property which means your morals are higher than your god's

Which is it?

Gawd forbid we don't play into that stereotype of not knowing the bible. That takes all her fun out of it!

I have not read all the responses yet (between meetings), but I would like to ask you why you are trying to be so mean? Let me be the first to tell you that I have no one and that is why I came to you. Everyone I know does not believe or they believe, but are judging.

You seem to be very judging and I am trying to be nice. I am not "playing" a love card. I am acting as though I believe I should act. Do you want me to say all atheist are abusive jerks because that is what I grew up with? It would be foolish of me, because I know that people are people.

People that would be looking to stepping out of Mormonism would be so hurt to run into an issue where you are cruel to them. They would be forced to go back to Mormonism, because they will be treated badly either way.

There are many others on here that are WONDERFUL and are helping me understand your side while you are just attacking me instead of letting me understand. Why? You are acting like the very people you are attacking.

It's the fakey emotionality that is setting off my creep o meter. Mormons rely on it, you're using it too. It's a sales tactic many of us here know and have used as part of our basic mormon toolkit.

"You're all wonderful fabulous people!" is an attempt to elicit reciprocation and make us think you are too.

Practically the definition of love bombing.

That is a serious put off. Makes me feel like I need a shower.

who knows where their laws in the OT came from. The ten commandments were commonly known among those people, as they were available in Egypt on the walls. People recognized them. The Israelites just created a story of Moses receiving them.

I've heard statements by middle-eastern ancient history scholars state there is no evidence of a large scale invasion of Canaan by the Israelites. There is more evidence of a slow trickle of Israelites moving in over time. It would seem they displaced the inhabitants over time.

I look at the founding of tscc and now compare it to all other religions, wondering if all these other religions started in essence the same way.

I find it amazing that anyone who tries to defend slavery in the bible goes straight to: the bible is mostly made up. I'd love to hear them make that claim around their christian friends, though...