Hi Gay Mormons

I can't even imagine how wrenching it must be to try to reconcile your faith in Mormonism with homosexual feelings. And for what it's worth, while I've never had that experience, I sincerely sympathize with you.

My note here today is intended to try to help you get out of that terrible bind. I realize it might be presumptuous of me to even write it, not being Mormon anymore, or gay; but who knows - maybe something in here might help someone. You never know.

It seems to me that the crux of the struggle here is the brute contradiction between faith in a religion which teaches that homosexual activity - the natural expression of your sexual identity - is sinful, and disqualifies you from full participation, with your conviction that Mormonism is true.

In trying to resolve that contradictions, some Mormon homosexuals have essentially declared war on themselves, trying to make themselves straight. But...that is a cruel and losing battle, isn't it?

Other folks just live with the contradiction. That also can't be an optimal choice.

A third option has become very popular: pressuring the church to allow practicing gays full membership privileges. In fact, that option has become so popular, that anyone declining to support that movement looks like a very bad egg, maybe even a bigot.

But in fact, I do decline to support that effort, and as counter-intuitive as it might seem, I think you should, too. Here's why:

To pressure the Mormon church to change its policies on practicing homosexuals is to, in a roundabout but real way, continue to grant it a legitimacy which it does not have, can make no claim to, and which it should not be granted. Its total lack of legitimacy as a "divinely inspired religious organization", let alone "the one true religion in the universe", is the real point - not whatever its current policies might be at any given moment.

Let me put that lack of legitimacy in other words:

*The LDS church is not what it claims to be*.

*Joseph Smith invented his stories*.

*The Book of Mormon was not "translated" by some guy staring through magical decoding lenses attached to "an ancient breastplate", reading the (non-existent) language of "reformed Egyptian"*.

Are you hearing me? *The Mormon Church is a fraud*, founded by a charlatan - you know, like the Scientologists or the Moonies. It's invented, my friends. Completely invented. That is the point - and in the end, the only real point. It deserves to be granted no legitimacy, not even in a roundabout way...so why grant it?

My respectful suggestion to all those struggling with the contradiction between homosexual identity and faith in Mormonism is to, first, take a deep breath and get some clarity on whether you are the kind of person who wants to live in the light of truth or the darkness of lies and superstition; and then, to take a further step back to re-consider whether Mormonism could really possibly be what it claims (I recommend starting with the book "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins" by Grant Palmer).

And if - or maybe I should say, once - you conclude that the Mormon Church cannot possibly be what it claims...you will feel sorrow, but that terrible inner contradiction will vanish, and you will find yourself free to be what you are: gay, bi, straight, everything in between, all the way to celibacy.

And in that moment, you will no longer care about what sorts of sexual policies crabbed control-freak, octogenerian religious bureaucrats come up with. You won't be in that weird little Mormon box anymore. You will be outside it, seeing for what it is - something imaginary, which only had power insofar as you granted it power, like a "boogie man" who you think is in your closet, the fear of which keeps you and your little brother frozen in your bed at night.

To me, trying to pressure a completely illegitimate church to change its policies is like trying to get the boogie man to yelp out a different howl, rather than standing up, turning the closet light on, and exposing the "boogie man" for what he is: your older brother with a sheet over his head trying to control you by pretending to be something he's not. That's why I'm suggesting that a far sounder approach would be to focus on living our lives in the light of truth, and shining that truth wherever there is darkness - like, at church headquarters.

Besides, who seriously thinks that Monson - a true airhead probably not even deep enough to understand what the problem might be - is going to order a 180 on gay membership? And who thinks the angry Packer - who himself seems quite a lot like a self-loathing, repressed homosexual - is going to order the 180? While you're writing letters to 90 year old repressed homosexual cynical liars like Boyd Packer, essentially begging him to change a policy held by a religion which isn't even true, you could be living YOUR life and sharing *your* light with hundreds, maybe thousands, of other young Mormons, helping them avoid the struggles you had. You could do this by sharing the results of your church research, or your personal experiences, on blogs, websites, circular emails, podcasts, guest editorials in newspapers, etc. Stop begging these vainglorious frauds in Mr. Mac suits to let you into their sick little club. The whole thing's a fraud, and you're better than that. These people don't deserve your pleas. They don't deserve anything other than the pure light of truth shining right at them, so that all may see them for what they are, and more importantly, what they are not.

Of course, this is just my two hundred cents, and I apologize again for any presumptuousness...I just hate seeing sincere, but still misguided people pleading with these doddering frauds to give them something it is not even in their power, in the end, to take away from the pleaders, save with their permission; and it's especially hard to see this, when Mormon leaders most likely will never even make those changes anyway.

Stop begging; start living your life boldly in the light of truth; and start shining that light on Mormonism; and maybe one day, we, or our kids, won't be debating the exact nature of their policies so much as expressing surprise by how insignificant that dwindling little church has become from when we were youngsters...

Just my two cents.

Tal

A beautiful two cents, Tal. Those videos made by gay Mormons telling others how to make it work, just break my heart. Even if the church did that 180 they'd still be 100% b.s.

If I were ever going to pray again, it would be that I hope the gay Mormon kids really do read this. That was excellent.

How much better would it be if you didn't need to say you're not gay? A lot, I think.

applause

Munchy - Not quite fair. I never even imagined that anyone might think I was gay, reading this; I imagined only that people would think I was presumptuous, because many who have read my posts and heard my exmo conference talks already know I'm straight, yet I'm on here suggesting things to gay Mormons who are struggling with something I'm not.

Hi Tal. Lovely to see you.

I too thought that munchy meant you are gay when I first read that comment. I thought huh - what did I miss - I haven't read you for a while but surely things haven't changed that much?

But then I decided munchy is likely saying "you" in the general sense, as in, can't wait until the world has evolved so far forward that nobody has to state their orientation any more.

Or something like that?

This language we have is always a challenge, eh?

PS: I know what you mean about being seen as 'presumptuous', giving advice to a group outside of your own (if I can put it that way). It's kind of like me giving marriage advice when, being eternally single, it kinda clangs.

Yet, on occasion it is fitting to offer insights from afar and some parallels in our human experience do serve to help us see and feel things from another's perspective enough that our advice can indeed be helpful.

If MJ is applauding your comments, Tal, I think you're all right as far as being appropriate. :)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2013 04:52PM by Nightingale.

That's the "maybe one day" I'm hoping to see in my lifetime, when no one needs to say they're not gay.

Really, Tal, why is that important?

Really, Munchy, you're making this into something it is not.

When people need to say up front--and not just once, but twice in this case--that they're not gay, that just gives license to the whole discriminatory thing that needs to go away. It says it's important to identify one way or the other.

To me it says, "I'm concerned that people might think I'm gay," but yeah, that's just me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2013 05:06PM by munchybotaz.

And Tal explained that "I never even imagined that anyone might think I was gay, reading this; I imagined only that people would think I was presumptuous, because....I'm on here suggesting things to gay Mormons who are struggling with something I'm not."

he wouldn't have needed to say he's not when he'd already said he hadn't had the experience and couldn't imagine how wrenching it must be. Funny, too, how he knew exactly what I was talking about before I said it very clearly.

And why worry about being presumptuous? He knows about being Mormon, and about trying to reconcile the faith with feelings it deems unacceptable. Anyone who still has faith in Mormonism is likely to think he's being worse than presumptuous anyway.

If you're gonna be a tool of Satan, might as well be presumptuous too.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2013 06:29PM by munchybotaz.

There's a difference between using a disclaimer to give yourself legitimacy by distancing yourself from a marginalized group (which is, I think, what this looked like to you) and using it to acknowledge straight privilege and/or admit a lack of insider knowledge of a way of being that you're commenting on. I'm okay with Tal's statement because I see it as the latter.

So many Mormon gays have been taught all their lives that gays are evil. Because of this, they do not trust what gays have to say about being gay.

A straight person can get through were a gay person could not.

So I guess that leaves only the evil anti-Mormon/tool-of-Satan thing to get past.

And I'm still hoping to see the day when no one says, "I'm not gay, but ...."

There will always be times when saying "I'm not gay" is rather appropriate.

More than once I have started flirting with someone that said "Oh, sorry, I'm not gay".

Great letter, Tal.

One of the biggest things to get me and my wife out of the church, besides knowing it was a fraud, was having a gay son.

We had known he was gay long before he ever mentioned it. People are really born that way. But we knew that if we continued on in the church just to get along with neighbors and extended family that we would be choosing between our son and others.

If we would have stayed in the church, I think it would have messed my son up. Who knows, with the teachings that they are an abomination, and sex drives as real and legitimate as any hetero, he may have become depressed and committed suicide like many young gay mean who cannot reconcile their religion and their sexual orientation.

He could have faked it, like many in my family would have liked, and been unhappy and may have ruined the lives of others.

Our son is the best young man around. I would hate for anything to happen to him. We told him the truth about the church so that it held no legitimacy over his mind.

Get out of the church and quite waiting for them to change, all they will do is mess up your life.

With a God complex.

nice to see Tal back here again

I hope Mitch Mayne and all the other gay tbm's read this. Excellent letter......thanks Tal.

Perfect timing too! SLC is about to celebrate one of the city's favorite times of year. The gay pride festival is coming up and downtown is going to be a very fun place to hang out soon. :)

Thanks, Tal. If only there had been a way to communicate this to LDS youth 40 or 50 years ago. My deeply closeted (and perfect mormon boy)sweetheart might have been able to live his life in a much more fulfilling way than marrying me, and trying to make a mixed orientation marriage work. So much wreckage came out of that disaster for him, for me, and for our children.

The internet, and forums like this, are quite literally lifesavers and are changing hearts and minds like nothing else I have experienced in my lifetime.

Awesome. Good to see you on here again Tal, I loved your writing and was hoping I'd see you on here sometime to compliment you on them.

BTW I was once in a ward for your sister before I came to my senses, back then we would say "hopefully he comes back someday" not knowing that ironically it would be your writings that would help lead me out.

I agree 100% Tal.

It's terrible that there are so many suicides in Mormondumb, and while it may seem more "acceptance" by the cult would reduce the self loathing and angst, it would never eliminate it. How can you have acceptance in a cult that teaches eternal breeding is heaven?

As a gay man I hope as many gay people get the hell out as soon as they can after ensuring they are not thrown on the street or beaten or hurt by the people they grew up trusting and hoping for unconditional love.

I want gay people to leave and take as many true friends and loving family members with them as possible. I hope no gay person settles for being treated like a lower caste, unworthy of full unconditional acceptance.

This is a fine letter, and it's great to see so much support from so many who just a short while ago were believing and being told to believe that I'm sick because I like guys.

But I can tell you that, as a former believer, there is a part of the letter that would have turned me right off. It may work for some questioners out there, but when I discovered the truth about the church, it was quite by accident. The following passage would have made me think that you were the deluded one:

"*The LDS church is not what it claims to be*.

"*Joseph Smith invented his stories*.

"*The Book of Mormon was not 'translated' by some guy staring through magical decoding lenses attached to 'an ancient breastplate', reading the (non-existent) language of 'reformed Egyptian'*.

"Are you hearing me? *The Mormon Church is a fraud*, founded by a charlatan..."

It's obvious to you and to me, but only after (cue the Kurt Bestor soundtrack) line upon line and precept upon precept (turn off the silly Kurt Bestor soundtrack). As a believer in the early 2000s, I would have clicked the back button after that. Thanks, but no thanks.

I wonder if another appeal to gay Mormons would work better, something more active and engaging. Such as:

"If you're a Mormon and you have unwanted feelings towards the same sex, here's something totally unrelated to your sexual preference that you can do instead of listen to an apostate that you fear may have an agenda contrary to your beliefs:

"Take your triple combination to the nearest university that has an Egyptology department. Show a professor who is familiar with hieroglyphics the three pictographs at the front of The Book of Abraham. An objective person who hasn't the slightest interest in Mormonism will be able to back me up with what I'm about to tell you, as astounding as it may sound: Joseph Smith was making it up as he went along."

You, I, and everyone else on this board know that The Book of Abraham is the church's Achilles Heel. The more objective and disinterested the damning information is, the better for people like me who are still thoroughly convinced that all information against the church is anti and inspired by Satan.

Other than that, it's a wonderful and supportive letter. I ache for those gay Mormon video makers. They need that poison arrow shot into their useless testimonies.

Mr. Neutron - I do hear that point. I recognize that the blunt stuff isn't for everyone.

Thank you, ozpoof. By the way, which footie team do you support?

Sincerely sorry to hear about that heartache, Gemini.

Munchybotaz, you have completely misunderstood my original letter, my follow-up explanation to you, and the explanations given to you by others.

Let me try one last time:

Because, for various reasons, I am fairly well known around these parts as a heterosexual, and yet was writing about a struggle which will always be foreign to me, I was conscious of appearing "presumptuous". Not *gay*; PRESUMPTUOUS.

Imagine someone known to be a virgin writing a sex manual, or someone known to have never been involved with any organized sports writing a coaching manual. Can you see how that might come across as presumptuous? And can you see that an author, known to be a virgin writing a sex manual, or a non-athlete writing a book about coaching, would be obligated to acknowledge that apparent presumptuousness, and explain why s/he is addressing a topic s/he is known to have no personal knowledge of?

Surely, it can't be that tough to grasp that...(?)

could you try that one more time with a little more presumptuousness? Maybe then it will be easier for me to grasp. So far I've only managed to grasp that if you don't appreciate my comment, then obviously, I have misunderstood.

Hate to think if I'd leveled any serious criticism at your trying-ever-so-hard-not-to-be-presumptuous letter.

Hell....Everything we express here are "Presumptuous"...
I would like to know a specific"presumption" on Tal's letter.

I wonder if there would be a way to distribute this letter at Gay Pride this weekend. Does anyone have any ideas?