I came late to SLDrone's party today. From some of the comments after the fact I expected to find a bloodbath on his thread about recovery. That can happen if there is a huge difference of opinion on a hot topic. In the end, I thought the responses were fairly mild. Maybe SLDrone got a bit of a pass from people who remember him from his posting years here. I do appreciate Mak holding Drone's feet to the fire. There is no rank or privilege here, hopefully, and nobody is above being challenged on their views.

For reference, here's Drone's thread about recovery:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,956130


A comment by anagrammy is surely going to be the best laugh of the day:

"I have embraced the crazy Mormon me of the past and am now able to appreciate some good things I got from being dominated by a patriarchal cadre of self-serving douchbags."

I had a good long belly laugh at this remark. I find that comments some may call "irreverent" give me the best laughs. Maybe because I spent so many years being meek and obedient. Maybe because reverence is overrated. Maybe there just isn't enough irreverence about to keep the score even. Maybe because it's just a hilarious spoofy kind of thing to say. There are layers that perhaps only exmos will "get", which is one of the reasons ana gives for participating at RfM for many years; it's not a measure of a recovery that is "too slow" but rather a recognition and appreciation of the strength and benefits of mixing with those who get your jokes without explanation and who know the lingo and understand the sacrifices and wounds and ongoing pain incurred from experiences that in many cases weren't even of our own choosing. (But even so, speaking of choice, converts should get a break as well. Sure, they chose the Mormon font, compared to BICs who were pushed in, but thereby hangs a tale for another day).

For me, a convert who has been reading RfM for 10 years now and posting for a slightly shorter time, I've never considered that I need "recovery" in the medical or psychological sense of the word. But no doubt talking over the experiences, my own and those of others, has been helpful as well as interesting, enjoyable, fun, informative, insightful and enlightening. I've never thought there is a time limit or expiry date on my RfM ticket! Until, that is, I don't find anything new to read or appealing to write about. Or until they kick me out for being stale-dated. :)

Lately I have written about subjects that felt too personal or painful for me before. Interesting to note that it has taken me 10 years to get there. I have recently posted details about being a JW. Previously I was too embarrassed to admit readily or frequently that I was a double-dipper, joining not one but two cult-like groups (as others see both JW'ism and moism). For various reasons I didn't gravitate to something simple like any one of dozens of decent-enough mainstream Protestant denominations. I have also been able to recount in more detail my very unhappy baptism experience (where immediately before the font time the bishop, who I had never met, was "inspired" to judge that I or my friend who was baptising me, or both of us, were not worthy to participate and accused us of having an affair - my friend was married). Too, I have participated in some of the threads about women being abused/attacked by men. Call me slow but this is how long it's taken to move from writing about non-personal to personal topics. So, in my experience, RfM's gifts just keep on giving. Its usefulness spans a wide range of needs.

I remember how helpful it was for many RfMers in the past to speak to SLDrone and get his perspective on things, as a former MP. There are SO MANY ex-missionaries here and its easy to see why it would be great for them to get a chance to see things from the viewpoint of an exmo who was an MP, an important figure in their mo-mishie lives. I'd love someone to explain to me, for instance, how an MP I knew could leave a missionary in a domestic abuse situation, denying that it was occurring, when I had the hospital bills to prove it. Something to do with being Mormon I expect <sarcasm>.

I do know how our words and ideas can come back to bite us, often out of the blue. It's interesting to see how people perceive us, sometimes reading something we didn't intend or didn't even write. Maybe it would have been easier for some of us to understand SLDrone's points if he was a more frequent poster, so we'd be used to his style or opinions. My post isn't meant as criticism of him. Mostly I just wanted to say I expected a bloodbath but didn't really see it, a tribute to SLD and the contributors to his thread. And also that ana's comment really tickled my funnybone, and it applies to far more situations than Mormonism! I might have to pin it to my wall. :)



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2013 03:30PM by Nightingale.

So many great posters here...I learn something new every day:)

Thanks Nightingale, It was interesting and a little surprising to watch the thread unfold and it showed me just how raw these feelings really are. There are very few things in life that can create wounds so deep, perhaps because religion promises so much, exacts so much and then delivers nothing.

Had I written the same little essay 4 or 5 years ago, it would have been taken together with all my very frequent postings here and the responses would have been different. But that's OK, each comment should stand on it's own merit regardless of the author. Those that lashed out at me were not really lashing out at me, they were lashing out at family that has rejected them, or religion that has lied to them, or maybe friends that have judged them. Most of the comments did not accurately reflect what I had written, but rather reflected anger or disappointment from the great damage that has been inflicted and the excruciating pain that comes with facing it.

I was as vested in Mormonism as it gets. It took me 10 years to start letting that go so I understand well the visceral emotions so close to the surface. It is impossible to just forget, so then each of us will have to define for ourselves what recovery means.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2013 05:02PM by SLDrone.

GLad I tickled your funny bone, Nightingale.

It is a form of belonging to be able to post an irreverent remark about every jot and tittle of a GA's notes being read in slow motion to a rapt audience of plastic smiles and thousand-yard stares.

Who else knows what jot and title means, or the irritating rasp of "stalwart" (a word I loathe). My mind is littered with archaic 18th century phrases and words, useless in my present life except for humor.

Here is where you will find the rawest and funniest Mormon humor--here and at salamander. It is the health smoothie of the soul to share a laugh with others --even if the humor is juvenile and you wouldn't be caught dead making fun of any other religion.

We get to for the same reason Chris Rock can say "reggin" (read it backwards). He has been one and has a pass.

If you are Mormon and lurking here, we don't hate you but we will mock the overlords who are milking you like a cow. We can't make fun of you because we have been you. We hope you can enjoy our irreverence even if you don't leave Mormonism.

You can't tell me the curtain outfit for temple dancing isn't hilarious--you know it is.

Humor brings us together, MOrmons get our wisecracks just like exmos do. RfM is porn to them--a world that is outside their reality but damn fun to see.


Anagrammy

"Just get over it" is the favorite post from TBM trolls. Drone is not around much and I don't think many knew who he was.

Also, when something is a continual problem it is hard to move on from. You can't move on from something that happened today. Many here have issues that come up on a constant basis with family, work, neighbors.

Example - I have been "out" longer than a lot of you have been alive and I really don't give a purple rats ass about LDSInc. But today I received mail from a nice woman who is just starting her journey out and feels afraid and alone. THAT I care about. Took a moment to say bad "Tedd" things about LDSInc. As long as there are people that need help I will never been "done" with my "recovery". But like many if not most I don't even think about LDSInc unless I am checking the board or mail.

We appreciate your dedication and the many hours you put in babysitting this board.

:)

Ana

You, Eric, and anyone else who helps here is amazing. I will be forever grateful for you all. I don't know where I would be without this place.

I think when I read that post I thought of it differently than some interpretations. I didn't read, "get over it" I read, "good news, you can get over it." Though I completely understand why it would have been read either way.

It may help that I remember some former posts. Like the archived "rare person" post.

It's difficult to read tone in text. Without body language and visual cues there is sometimes no way to determine the mood of the message, even with emoticons and <sarcasm> tags.

It's rare to meet a fully recovered individual who still sticks around to help others, but it's also very, very helpful. Meeting a fully together, loving, "with-it" family is what finally helped my family out (thanks Ihidmyself & Imaworkinonit).

We can't really pay that kind of thing back, but we can pay it forward, like they did, even though we probably won't really have a reason to care anymore --except to help others.

You read it correctly as I intended. It never occurred to me that anyone on RfM would take me for a troll. But then, I have been pretty scarce.

Recently, there have been several new posters trying to tell posters how they feel and how they should feel as well as recover.

Now, had we been sitting down, and you would have said what you did - I would have politely asked you why the fuck you cared to make an example out of your friend?

Has your friend gotten to the point of his "militant homersexuality" to destroy relationships, ruin careers, etc.?

Meaning, has it gotten to the point that it could be classified as an addiction, and you are concerned that he needs an intervention before self-destruction?

If so, ok - I could see how you'd maybe want to use that as a "cautionary tale."

But if it hasn't gotten to that point, I'd really wonder why the fuck you cared so much that your friend is passionate about who he is.

Personally, my brand of exmoism deals more with helping exmormons laugh at the silly but damaging institution they were involved with. I'm not really concerned about what other exmormons do with their recovery.

I know exmormons who feel their "calling" is to deconvert as many people as possible and other exmormons who don't want to spend "one more thought" on that shitty organization.

I don't really give a fuck as to which philosophy is "right." What do I care what other people do after they leave? It's not my job to "fix" anyone.

So, all of this rambling aside, I really didn't know what in the fuck you were trying to say, but the question you posed was incredibly hilarious to me - and I was glad that I got a Terminator/Quantum leap reference off before the thread closed.

Raptor, yes he's lost several friends, at least one job, for ranting about bigotry to some clients and his partner has repeatedly told me (and him) that he's tired of the anger. My friend has forgotten how to be happy and is now quite sure that the world owes him happiness to make up for his suffering. It would be one thing if he ranted to bigots, but he yells at his friends who already agree with him, but are just tired of his anger.

HOWEVER - that was NOT the point of my post and I'm sorry I used it as an analogy, because people never got past the analogy to the point.

Oh and I LOVED your Quantum Leap post, I actually LOL'd

Very late, but I just wanted to say something that struck me in reading the first part of SLDrone's post, specifically the "gay" part. In my interpretation, it was presented as, "get over it/good news, you can get over it"--whichever one--but at least in the "gay" part of the analogy, that doesn't work. Why? You talked about your gay friend. Being gay is part of your friend's identity. An identity that's been much more maligned than most people, luckily, will ever experience. But beyond that, most people have friends of roughly their same background and experience and associate primarily with people of the same sex, the same culture, etc. Many people I know who are suburban, educated, and middle-class tend to hang out at activities and go to activities primarily geared towards suburban, educated, middle-class people. They date and marry mainly other suburban, educated, middle-class people. People also tend to hang out with people who share their interests, favorite activities, careers, and hobbies. Now--there can certainly be a case made that people SHOULD seek out more diverse experiences and more diverse groups of people and activities. And I agree with that. But I think in general, people tend to gravitate towards others of a similar culture, background, religion, social status, etc. That's not necessarily "good," but it's the norm. Many people find a gay subculture (and there are many gay subcultures, not just one, I'm not generalizing about "gay culture" as a whole) that they identify with. Many don't, and many don't want to. But the example you gave is really no different from the majority of people who gravitate towards others like them, and it feels to me as though it was presented as "different." I think the thing that bothered me about that is that being gay was presented (in my mind at least) as being something to "get over" once you come out, and then you can calm down and assimilate and stop fighting for your civil rights so dang much and just be like Other People and not obsess over your identity so much. But for many people it's a distinct positive, not something they "overcame." They simply prefer certain groups of people and a certain subculture, much like punk subcultures, etc., to other ones. People relate to their gayness/bisexuality in a variety of ways. Some see it as simply a part of themselves like having red hair or being male or female or black or white, and it has no other effect on their lives. Some see a certain gay subculture as part of their identity, but also as their particular culture, full of its own social norms and mores, means of communication, vocabulary, and the like. Either way, I think very few people see it as something they "got over" and then didn't need to talk about so much once it wasn't so painful for them anymore. I think most people would agree that being an exMormon is part of a recovery process, but not everyone--and I'd venture to guess that includes your friend--sees being gay as requiring a "recovery" process. At least not after a certain point.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2013 10:39PM by Susan I/S.

You probably noticed what I just said to Raptor. I didn't really flesh out the "gay part" of my post because it wasn't the point. The friend I wrote about is destroying his life, loosing friends and employment and is settling into a seething anger about all the injustices he's experienced. He's gone so far as to attack and loose the friendship of those that completely support him.

I am very familiar with the gay culture and sub cultures. I'm just as comfortable associating with gays as I am straights. I can honestly say that it makes absolutely no difference to me. But I guess with that familiarity comes normalization. I don't give my gay friend a pass just because he's gay. It's not OK for him to behave the way he does and attack his supporters.

It was only meant to be an analogy. In the early years of becoming an exmo I was a lot like him. I would go to dinner with a group of friends and just start ranting about the evil TSCC, and how stupid TBM's are. They got tired of it and tired of me. It was my wife that pulled me aside after I had more or less ruined a Thanksgiving dinner with extended family to let me know that she loves me and supports my decisions but that she wasn't about to stick with me if I drove all our friends and children away. There is absolutely a valid comparison to make and the two things are in many ways analogous.

I say I didn't include all that because it wasn't my point. I was using it as a lead in analogy to my actual point, which was that with our exmo passion it's good to find balance. Unfortunately, there was so much passion about the lead in that my actual point was lost.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2013 10:33PM by SLDrone.

Gay and trans* people, particularly those of color, are murdered, raped, and treated as second-class citizens on a daily basis because of things they cannot control. You are speaking from a major place of privilege when you say things about his anger. We deserve to be angry.

Also, the comments about you being "comfortable associating with gays as well as straights" or that it "doesn't make any difference to you" also smack of major privilege. Nobody has to say, "I'm just as comfortable associating with SLDrone's white heterosexual male self as with gay black transfeminine people. I can honestly say that it doesn't bother me that he's white, straight, and male," like they deserve a pat on the back. In fact, it sounds ludicrous. Why? Because you are in a place of incredible privilege. I don't give you a pass, either, just because you claim not to be homophobic. I never claimed you were, in fact. I said that what you said showed an ignorance about gay people, particularly their identity and how they relate to it. I didn't say you hated them or weren't comfortable around them, but that's what you jumped to. Because as a white straight male, you are supposed to be applauded by society for not openly hating or being intolerant of other people's sexual orientations.

Your friend deserves support as a default. It's not a gift to him. It's his fundamental right. Many of the rights you have, he doesn't have. I am sure you feel yourself to be supportive. But your privilege is obvious. As a white person, I have to check my privilege when talking about people of color, since I cannot claim to know what they've been through. You did a similar thing in your analogy, which is why people jumped on it.

You like to feel offended don't you? I'm sorry that's just one assumption, very much like the many you've made about me.

I didn't assume. You wrote it. I quoted you directly.

And no, I don't like to feel offended. I'd much rather people responded well to people calling them out on their privilege. If something I've said or others have said (since many others have agreed with me) is wrong in some way, then call us out on that! Nothing wrong with that.

Let me break it down for you.

I have a friend, and very good friend, a friend I've known for decades, who has become angry and hard to be around because he's become so obsessed with being a gay man. A man who was once the life of the party and a joy to be with is rapidly becoming difficult to be around.

When I first left Mormonism, I was much the same way, so much so that we were once asked to leave the house of some friends, or that my mother in law was left in tears at the fight I created during a thanksgiving dinner.

In both cases we had lost our balance and become obsessed with our own issue. It's good to find balance in our lives, NOT abandon who we are, NOT just get over it, NOTHING LIKE THAT AT ALL, but merely to find balance and find a way to be happy where we are as we move forward.

That's it. That's what my post was about. It's not that hard, and many people for what ever reason have read so much into my words and made so many assumptions without knowing so much as who I am or what I believe. You suggest that all my thoughts and beliefs are held in this one set of posting and if I don't say what you want to hear you find fault. Next time perhaps ASK ME why I want my friend to change before you assume it's out of some pedantic paternal need to control everyone around me.

But if I wrote a post that was racist, and which many people interpreted as racist, and then said, but you didn't understand, I was just talking about this very specific person and these are all the circumstances, and you assumed that I WAS a racist because what I wrote was insensitive and racist and that's not fair...would that make sense? Sure, you might think I was racist when I'm not. But that doesn't mean that I shouldn't be held accountable for what I wrote. I don't think anyone was trying to throw you under the bus or misrepresent you as a person. You wrote a post that many people interpreted as misrepresenting and undermining gay people. No one was interested in maligning you as a person. What you wrote did not express the point you just made in the least. People responded to what you wrote. It's not their problem if you came off as homophobic and unaware of your own privilege when you aren't.

You are absolutely right. I didn't include much detail and a lot of assumptions were made. You are absolutely right, that was my error. Go back and read my original post and you will see that people were reading their own assumptions into what I wrote and then responding passionately to the strawmen they created.

I get that. It never occurred to me that I might be saying "just get over it" because I wasn't and I don't think that. It never occurred that I might come off as some homophobic troll because I'm not.

There was a time when I was well known and well understood here. No one would have ever thought those things of me. But that was years ago. And you are right, it is my fault that I made that dangerous assumption. If you go back now, knowing what you know you will see what a wrote is consistent with what I write now, but there was no way for you to know that and that is my fault.

Sorry if I offended you. I stand by my points about how I read it, but the initial post made my blood boil because of accusations I and others who have been truly hurt due to their sexual orientation or gender expression have received about how we should just "not be so angry" or "get over it," especially after DOMA. I have known people who have experienced deep atrocities, truly unspeakable things, because they were transgender or gay, and I am quick to jump on anyone who seems to not understand that. I did not mean to speak against you as a person, I am sure you are a lovely person. But my only point was that we can only go by what we read.

Here is something I wrote that will give you more context. I wrote this the year the Bush Admin tried to amend the US Constitution before they settled for DOMA, so the political references are dated but the story is the same. I hope you like it.

http://rfmorg.wordpress.com/2008/06/27/tales-from-a-mission-president/

Except that you changed your post several times from what you originally said. My replies were to what you said before it was changed. I'm glad you made those changes. The final version is better, but you made the changes as a result of what I said and what others said.

So, please don't claim that you are misunderstood or that I made any assumptions, because it's not true and you know it.

I'm surprised and disappointed at you, Drone.

+1

Mak, I made the changes precisely because I realized I was being misunderstood and that people were taking offense. I haven't changed how I feel, just how I wrote about it.

Here is what I originally wrote, word for word before any edits. It was written without sensitivity or context, and you are absolutely right that was my fault and I apologize for the offense I gave. You can read it now and see that it might not have said exactly what you took from it. Here it is:
__________________________________

I have a friend who is gay. He's not just gay, he lives to be gay. Everything he does is gay, he goes to gay parades, he goes to gay bars he goes on gay cruises, the only thing he knows about the Supreme Court is their rulings on DOMA and Prop 8, but he couldn't name a single justice. He runs a gay support group, he goes to movies with a group of gay friends. He's a one note song, the gay note. I tell him sometimes that I know it's important for him to focus on himself and fight for his civil rights, but that there is a balance.

I'm the first to admit that I too went through a period of aggressive exmoism, yep every single step of recovery, including a fair amount of depression, bitterness and then passionate sharing of information. But being a victim didn't suit me and I eventually found balance. Only the n could I move on. Mormonism doesn't matter very much to me anymore. The day to day riffraff is just that to me, a pile of garbage. The only power they and it have over you is the power you give them.

Don't abandon your exmormonism, but don't let it consume you. Exmormonism is not who you are, it's just a remnant of who you used to be. Bring it out on occasion, let it remind you and draw power from the passion. I wish you all a happy recovery.

Now the other post you changed, where you said that recovery should have a beginning and an end. That was the one that I objected to.

see, that's the funny thing and I've been trying to tell you, I never wrote that and I don't think that, far from it. But I don't doubt you interpreted it that way. What I just posted for you is exactly my first post before I changed it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2013 12:10AM by SLDrone.

It's exactly what you said. I did not interpret or assume anything. You wrote that and then you changed it.

Why can't you admit when you're wrong?

Hmmmm, because I didn't write that, I don't think it and I never thought it. If I'd written it I would freely admit it and just say I changed my view, but I'm sorry Mak, I never wrote or thought that recovery has an ending. I encouraged people to describe what "recovered" means to them. Maybe using the past tense like that made you think I was suggesting there was an end to it and I can see that. Go back and look at the whole thread, those posts are still there.

Well, isn't it convenient that we can't check. I can't believe you're going Hinckley on us, Drone. Unbelievable.

I know your intentions were good, SLDrone, but your white male heterosexual privilege may not let you see how offensive your post was. Melissa Harris Perry has an excellent clip online about how to be a great ally. It des not include swooping into the rescue and it does not include thinking you have anything to say about how gay or how black or how recovered or unrecovered anyone is. Please stop judging your gay friend and be his ally. Imagine if he were to tell you how obsessively straight you are. I mean, you married a woman after going to so many places that straight people hang out. In fact, you ONLY went to those places. And you are alwYs talking about your staight life and your straight family. At work you only talk about straight stuff. You care most about legal and voting issues having to do with being straight. The fact is, the world is set up for you to do exactly the same things. Tthe only differenc is that your friend is outnumbered.

I'm sorry but you have no idea what my experience or feelings are toward the gay community. I don't usually respond this abruptly but I'm a little tired of the stereotype assumptions about me or "where I'm coming from". Please don't assume you know because I'm quite sure you are entirely wrong.

+ 1,000,000

And this isn't about your feelings. It's about the words you chose. We don't know your feelings. We know what you chose to write.

I never understand when others try to tell anyone how they should be feeling about anything.

For years I have been coming to this board, mostly just to read the posts. It has shown me that I've not been alone in leaving the cult and that many of my experiences have not been unusual. The board has empowered me to educate myself to look outside my small mormon boundries and experiences to a new exciting world and to never limit myself again.

This board has taught me to never be afraid of questioning.

For myself, RFM is my 12 step program and at times, like right now, I enjoy sharing.

Thanks mystic and you are right. THAT in a nutshell is the magic of RfM. A band of strangers brought together almost as a family, old friends that have never met, and able to learn that they are not alone.

Moat and beam, moat and beam.

I like well reasoned discussions even if I disagree with a premise. I read the post and the responses and I think if any thing was lacking it was context.

Ha ha that's and understatement Jacob, and it's my fault. You might notice that those that knew me from "back in the day" got what I was saying, exactly because they had that context and know what I'm about. Those that didn't know me took offense, and it was my fault. I guess I should stop by more often, or shut up. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2013 12:10AM by SLDrone.

SLDrone, you're a big man, thanks for participating even if it is rarer than many of us would prefer.