An old friend of mine in Utah posted something and it exploded into a vicious debate. Here's some of the thread:

#1- Is enjoying the fact the Boyd K. Packer managed to piss so may people off. Is it so surprising that the LDS religion is against same sex marriage. They have never condoned it. Cry a river, build a bridge and get the fuck over it.

#2- The opinions of that religion have never been a secret. If you can't let them have their opinion and think they should state it during THEIR OWN conference then you should probably jump off a bridge. If you are entitled to your opinion and state it to people then they have theirs and can state it to their own following. You don't like it then don't watch or read anything about it. It is no one elses business what is said during conference than the followers.

#3 Apparently you've missed the fact that there are, actually, gay Mormons. There are also children and teenagers being raised in the church who haven't yet come out as gay, and the likelihood of them jumping off a bridge is, as we've seen, not a small one.

#4 Here's the thing though, all he said was that it is wrong and unnatural. He didn't say god hates you if you're gay, he didn't say that we're going to hate gays, he didn't say that people are shitty parents for having gay kids, all he said w...as that it's immoral. If some kid is fed up cause society doesn't accept him, then that's his problem. If he wants to commit suicide, which is also looked down upon in the church, then that's his own damn choice. The LDS religion is all about free agency. Do what you want but there's always gonna be either blessings or consequences. Like Donovan said, build a bridge and get over it. Pull the dick out of your asses and quit being so butthurt.... Haha get it? It's a gay joke. Hahaha.

#3 It's also your free agency to remain ignorant, which you will. Good day.

#4 So just because we don't accept something that's unnatural means we're ignorant... Hmmm

Itzpapalotl- When religious leaders quit saying so much stupid shit, then the criticism will stop.

#2 People in that religion are told to think for them selves, by the religion not necesarilly by their family. If they choose that route then they should stand by it. If they can't handle it then walk away. I did it, walked clean away from it.... I didn't leave because I was gay or anything but I did leave because I disagreed with some of what they stand for. No one is telling them to commit suicide. They just re-interated the belief of the religion. Any one who is/was mormon knows this to be the belief. If they are gay and they want to be gay then they know they should walk away. You cannot be in that religion and be gay all mormons know this. Sorry if this sounds harsh but walking away and ignoring others beliefs is not that hard.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2010 03:24PM by itzpapalotl.

continued...

#3 I think you folks need to talk to some real gays instead of getting all your info from the church and the media.

#4 Criticism will never stop. There's always gonna be people to criticize and argue with. Aren't opinions great?

#3 I'd rather argue with people who understand all sides of the issue and therefore have a real perspective to try to understand, rather than the same old backwards bullshit.

#2 Hun I do get info from gays. J--- walked away.. Why can people not understand. If you have your views and opinions and voice them why can't a religion, who has never changed this view, not tell their own followers that opinion?

Itzpapalotl- But it's not that cut and dried- People who leave mormonism are shunned, sometimes lose their jobs and family and deal with divorce because they woke up to the truth about Mormonism and themselves..
Suicide is not something to take lightly- ...People don't wake up and think, "I'm gay and Mormon. I better kill myself."
You are lucky you could walk away, but there are so many people still suffering because of this crap. I don't think what you stated is harsh so much as uniformed about how damaging that religion is to those who leave.

#3 Apparently not all gays are J----. Some actually love their church and their upbringing and their families and want to remain a part of it rather than being banished for being "unnatural." BTW, #4, if homosexuality is unnatural, why are 78% of seagulls gay? Want the research study? It's not the only one. Sorry

#2 I have several gays friends now and several in the past. From them I know it is not easy. At the same token being mormon isn't that easy either. You are the one that seems to not be seeing it from all sides. You are taking a side. All I have said is they have their belief and just re-interated it has they do with all the beliefs of the church.

#4 You are so retarded as to assume that none of us have ever known a gay person and that we know nothing of the other side. I went to school with three kids that stayed in the closet during school and then after they graduated, they came out. One of them was my friend. He was also in my seminary class. I saw him a year after we'd graduated and he told me he was gay. I told him I'd kick his ass if he hit on me. He said ok and that was that.

Itzpapalotl- Plus, you have to remember this is the same church that denied their priesthood to black people because they weren't worthy in the pre-existance. Ths is a church that changes so many of it's policies and doctrine, it's not even Joseph Smith would not recognize it. Why can't they change their stance on gays? It seems to work with all of their other doctrines that don't benefit them anymore.

‎@#4- So it's ok to make a verbal threat and to be hateful? Sounds like a typical Mormon attitude

It keeps going on and on....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2010 03:23PM by itzpapalotl.

and continued......

#2 You are right. The church will not change their doctrine for them though. No religion should change their beliefs for any reason other than if they truly believe god wants it to change. Making personal assumptions about the beliefs of a religion is fine. You don't like what they are saying, leave.

#3 Sure, just leave, walk away from everything you know. Sounds really simple.

Itzpapalotl- But they do change their doctrines and then claim they never taught it. They changed the priesthood doctrine because that church was in danger of losing it's tax-exempt status. If you think this is a church run by god, you're right- it's called money.

As far as thinking for themselves, I recall a leader stated, "When the prophet speaks, the thinking has been done."

#2- Itzpapalotl dear, you know I love you. Unfortunatly for you I did lots of research for a paper before and got the story from all sides about alot of what they have taught and former beliefs. They have never denied what they have taught in the past.... Some members who are not aware of it might say that. Several former prophets have told me in return letters, when I was young and curious of the truth, the truth. They were against blacks holding the priesthood, not for the reason you claim though. The reasons tended to change with who you asked. I have been told by the last two prophets before I walked away that it was simply because the church had been getting enough persecution as it was. To allow blacks the priesthood before it was ok by others would have made things so much worse for them as a whole. Every black person I knew who joined in those days were told this and they wanted to join because they would still get it and understood the severity of persecution at the time. More than YOU ever could. So please don't go off of "facts" that didn't show up till the days of the internet when anyone could throw up information and call it the truth.

#4 Here's the thing though, when I told my buddy I'd kick his ass if he hit on me, it wasnt from a religious point of view. It was from a woman loving man's point of view. Damn you people are too quick to assume sometimes.

#3- #2, so why was priesthood denied in the first place? Anything to do with those book of Mormon passages about being dark skinned meaning God cursed you?
And they changed the polygamy thing to get statehood. That had nothing to do with reli...gion either, except that after the third try at getting statehood and being rejected because of polygamy, a Prophet suddenly has a revelation...

Itzpapalotl- #2, you're being an apologist for the Mormons. I did my research long before you looked into that church's history. Remember, I was raised is this mess of a religion. I got my information from actual church history books- Journal of Disc...ourse, Ensigns, etc. I grew up learning about "loathesome dark skin" and how it's the mark of the cursed. I studied my way out when I was at BYU. Of course the leaders won't tell you the real reasons! Have you ever read some of Brigham Young's quotes about black people? It's kinda funny the way you're talking down to me as if I don't know anything about the history of Mormonism.

BTW, next time you see some green missionaries, ask them about Joseph Smith's 30+ wives and about the dark skin curse. I guarantee you will get a blank stare. p.s. I'm a little suprised you think I'm so stupid. Disappointed and disgusted as well. I always thought better of you. :(

#2- Talking down, no. You all seem to forget that I also was raised mormon. I also have done plenty of research and got lots of answers from alot of people who actually grew up in the church in those days. Do not assume that I do not know what ...I am talking about. I do not assume you do not, I just assume you don't think anyone else knows about it's history. I do not think anyone is stupid or ignorant. I believe you are taking a side and not looking at this from the only view people should be. It's their doctrine. Get over it. You think I hold you in contempt for your views? NO! Stop being so damn judgmental to the point you forget that when you have your views and opinions you want people to RESPECT them. Neither of you are showing that respect to the church though? Why is it when people pick a side in something they feel they have to throw respect to the way side? I in no way shape or form apologize for anything they have done. They did it and its done. I walked away and yes it WAS easy. It's called making up your mind. This shouldn't be an issue, not from people who want respect for their opinion and claim to respect others. You stated your opinion and you got rebuttles. Why did it become a venomous pissing contest? Oh and I never said the church was perfect they have had plenty of screw ups.See More



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2010 12:18AM by itzpapalotl.

Not just Prop H8 but also in other states too.

"Get over it?" Sure, as soon as Mormons stop trying to legislate their own morality in violation of the Constitution AND their own 11th Article of Faith.

Mormons are weird. That's MY religious belief.

They can cry a river, build a bridge and get the fuck over it.

Oddly enough, #1 is an ex-mo, too. He's not exactly the most emotionally sensitive person. There are reasons I don't hang out with him on a regular basis.

For years I was afraid of badmouthing "the church." I hated it, but wouldn't speak a word against it. Over the last few years I realized "F*** the 'church'!"

Dear sweet no-god, a lot of bullshit came from #2's mouth.

I interviewed some black members, and they were cool with no priesthood thing, so it was totally cool.

The church would have had even more persecution? They were one of the last fucking places to integrate. Oh, they had to wait longer while McConkie spouted more inane shit about the inferiority of "certain" people in the pre-existence?
Bullshit.

How about? If your church is actually led by Jesus, maybe the church should look like it's fucking run by fucking Jesus! Not a bunch of racist old useless white men waiting to die and 20 years late to the anti-racism party. Jesus Christ!!!

And while we're throwing anecdotal evidence around, my brother in law is a convert who is black-- and was pissed as hell to find out about the racist shit from the church's past AFTER he was baptized and had to do the research on his own. Why? Oh, because the Church pretends it never happened!

Even GBH's lame ass fucking response to the race issue was, "oh, we don't have to worry about that anymore."

See? Poof! Done. Hooray! And the best part? You don't even have to apologize!
Take that, offended people back in the day! Should have "gotten over it."

This is why I rarely discuss important, political, or religious matters on FB. I am easily disgusted with serious conversations because it usually becomes a personal attack.

I think it's back to shallow, fun, non-sensical convos for me.

p.s. I realized #1 likes to troll- He riles people up and eggs them on. Now I remember why Happy Valley requires serious drinking to keep one's sanity.

p.p.s. thanks raptorjesus- #3 and I are feeling pretty beat up lately.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2010 05:02AM by itzpapalotl.

I don't remember anybody telling me that.

Of course, I've been out for a few million years, so what do I know?

Timothy

You are supposed to investigate matters for yourself (i.e. pray and get warm fuzzies) and come up "independently" with the very answer your superiors have dictated to you previously.

Totally going through this as well. My wife posted her objection to prop 8 and to Packer's talk. She now has over 100 posts on her thread, most them being incredibly rude and idiotic comments from TBMs.

I have about 8 other FB friends who are going through similar things. They posted unoffensive comments in opposition to Packer's talk and have been savaged by a number of their TBM friends and family.

But I'm ready for this angry knot in my chest to go away. This is the thread that's bothering me today:

OP: "...is proud of President Packer and the things he said at conference!:

Reply 1: "It's sio great to have leaders who aren't afriad to stand up for whats right regardless of the backlash!!"

Reply 2: "I cried several times during his talk. Like it or not--some things are right and some things are wrong--end of story. Nobody said anything about being judgmental or not loving and accepting everyone. We just can't live in the gray area anymore! There were lots of talks about just that and I can't help but listen! It sure does make it hard just because I love so many people that make hard choices."

Reply 3: "PS: Thank heavens for the priesthood! :)"

There are also several thumbs up from people I know. I'm staying away from this one, because I've gotten into disagreements with this same woman on this issue before and it's just not worth it. All these women have young children (the original poster gave birth about two weeks ago) and I find myself wondering how they would react if their sons end up being gay.

It's not that easy for mormons to research some of the issues. If they stay on LDS-approved websites, and read only LDS-approved literature, they have a problem.

As was posted on another thread, a pamphlet called "To the One" was published in 1978 by the LDS Church. The pamphlet is basically a transcription of a talk given by Boyd K. Packer at a twelve-stake "Fireside" given at BYU (to an all-male audience). The church has since made this talk very difficult to access. It's so harsh that one can see why they would want to bury it.

You can find the entire talk, along with scans of the pamphlet pages here: http://www.whymormons.net/2010/10/to-one.html
This is a post on a google-ad-supported free website, so ignore the four text ads at the top.

Excerpts are below:

"And so, now to the subject. To introduce it I must use a word. I will use it one time only. Please notice that I use it is an adjective, not as a noun; I reject it as a noun. I speak to those few, those very few, who may be subject to homosexual temptation. I repeat, I accept that word as an adjective to describe a temporary condition. I reject it as a noun naming a permanent one.

"I have had on my mind three general questions concerning this subject. First: Is sexual perversion wrong?

"There appears to be a consensus in the world that it is natural, to one degree or another, for a percentage of the population. Therefore, we must accept it as all right. However, when you put a moral instrument on it, the needle immediately flips to the side labeled "wrong." It may even register "dangerous." If there has been heavy indulgence, it registers clear over to "spiritually destructive.'

"The answer: It is not all right. It is wrong! It is not desirable; it is unnatural; it is abnormal; it is an affliction. When practiced, it is immoral. It is a transgression....

"Establish a resolute conviction that you will resist for a lifetime, if necessary, any deviate thought or deviate action. Do not respond to those feelings; suppress them...

"If you are subject to this kind of temptation, it is essential that you break all connections with those who for one reason or another encourage it. Do not go back to places where you were tempted. Do not frequent those places where people with like attractions gather. This may require an adjustment socially, occupationally, even geographically.

If you are involved in a liaison, no matter how innocent it may appear, break it up right now....

"No good purpose will be served if you make this message the subject of chatter in the dormitories, or in classes, or in Church meetings. I repeat, I have thought this to be a very personal message, and I have already said that we can very foolishly cause things we are trying to prevent by talking too much about them."

Hmmm, does sound like Packer was afraid he'd cause homosexual thoughts in his own mind, just by discussing the subject. He has ignored his own advice and made the message a subject of chatter. (Though true-believing mormons are pointing out that he never said the word "homosexual", nor "gay", so why are we all objecting?)

"Now, what I have to say on this subject, I have said. And that is all I would say to you if you wrote to me, or if you came to see me personally. I am not the one to treat you. You are the one to treat you. If you are worried about this problem, if you need help, it should come first from your parents, then from your branch president or bishop or from others that he may enlist to assist you."

Sounds like Elder Packer was fed up with gay mormons coming to him for advice.