Hi,

Could Joey have gotten...perhaps not Mormonism, but some type of cult...going today?

What would he have needed? Which media would he have used? Who would his lieutenants have been? How successful (large) would his new cult have been?

Thanks,

Steve

L. Ron Hubbard is the second coming of MORmON Joseph Smith.

Mormonism survived in-spite of Joseph Smith, not because he was so brilliant. C'mon diddling "the help." The dude was a mess. He was locked up and jailed then and he would be today. Its ironic but because he was killed, he was made a hero and martyr. Myths were perpetuated. Subsequently, the church survived and even thrived in a series of "fortunate" events. The odds of all the stars lining up again? Not great. Its interesting to think what would have happened had he not been killed. Would Churchco have survived? He likely would have been convicted for breaking many laws. The trial(s) would have made for great stories today.

Exactly. How many times was he arrested? I know of at least 4 times. He apparently spent a good amount of time running away from authorities in Nauvoo as well. He would be all over the news, america's most wanted, etc... and far more despised than Warren Jeffs. He'd be despised by members today if they knew the truth about why he was jailed. The D&C says he was held on false charges, but he was held on legitimate charges of treason and murder and he escaped with the help of a sympathetic guard...he was never aquitted.

Dying was the best thing he could have done to perpetuate the church. Never underestimate a martyr.

+1

JS was also awaiting trial for adultery and bigamy.

Absolutely--perhaps not the exact incarnation we see today but something else... I think L Ron Hubbard is an excellent comparison (Scientology is eerily familiar--read "Going Clear").

In any case, he would have likely realized that the whole "religious cult" thing is too difficult anymore (even L Ron Hubbard was persecuted to an extent, although his hiding out was likely fueled more by paranoia than actual danger).

He would probably have just joined a bunch of MLM's or started his own... Jo Skin? Tahitian Joey? Jo Terra? XanJo?

I actually think he could have pulled it off.

There is a bloke here in Australia claiming to be the re-incarnation of Jesus Christ, and is getting quite a following. His main argument? With so many people over the centuries claiming to be Jesus Christ, one of them has to be right".

Ummmmmm NO Sorry, NOT SO!!

The Australian TV did a documentary on him, and I am amazed at what was being said (so was the reporter!). They (the reporter and crew) decided after consultation with a cult specialist, that it was the beginning stages of a cult, and that if it survives it could definately become a later stage cult. SCARY!!!

What's the name of this cult and person?

Is it this guy in Australia?

Ooh! scarey, Fluhist!
Would like to read more on that.

Lucky- that sounds just about right, perhaps L. Ron Hubbard is ( or was?) the reincarnation? One has to wonder. I was on a neighbourhood walkabout the other day and happened to pass a scientology building, the door open, so ( after praying to be safe!) I walked in for a minute or two just to see what the energy was actually like. Whoah. Zombie world! Matrix reloaded.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2013 02:40AM by welshgypsy.

Warren Jeffs has been successfully perpetuating the fraud; do you think he could have started one from scratch?

No, Warren Jeffs is the opposite of Charismatic. He already had a ready made flock of sheep that he drove off the proverbial cliff.

Download Kumare (acute acfent on the e). It shows a guy tricking ppl into thinking he is a guru. Joe's message would have been something new age-y but ppl somewhere would still have fallen for it

Excellent documentary

What a fabulous idea.

A regular guy can grows his hair and beard, has cards printed at Vistaprint, and holds a "workshop" in a motel and SHAZZAM! He has followers.

The middle-aged moneyed-but-lonely ladies in Arizona "felt his energy" and went for it.

The weirdest thing of all was when he does his big reveal and shaved off his beard and hair and showed up dressed like a normal American businessman (i.e., the truth)-- and admitted to them that they were basically in an experiment about what humans will believe...they were mad.

Not angry that he deceived them so much as angry they couldn't continue!

See it on Netflix. It is really incredible that they basically concluded that it didn't need to be true to fulfill their needs.

Sound familiar?


Anagrammy

Anagrammy, what movie was this?

The more I think about it, the more significant this movie is to me as a person involved with a big family recovering from either being raised Mormon or being raised by exMormon-still-Mormon-thinking me.

If you watch this, please start a new tread to discuss it. So many people think that only non-internet eighteenth century people would buy a Joseph Smith con.

Nope.


Anagrammy

It's called "Kumare" -- think its on Netflix.

I dont think it would have made it. Theres too much science & PC. around. People wouldnt have tolerated That much racism,mysoginy,and w/dna, and Metalury science,It wouldnt fly. Even than people were getting fed up w/his antics,thats why they killed him. I THINK THE 2 main reasons it survived was they moved from state to state CONSTANTLY! And the poor communication,kept the word from spreading.BY took it to another leavel by isolating people more so, as abusers are known to do.

Definitely possible.

There are always those out there who wish to be defined by their beliefs, because they are different. Think of them as religious hipsters. Even though it's a world with a lot of scientific knowledge, that doesn't make people well-informed. Many people in the US can't name the Vice President -- you think they'll be able to parse religious claims effectively?'

To add to that, we have evidence that similar religions have arisen recently. To name a few:

Jim Jones (charismatic, hippie-ish type with communitarian ideals):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones

David Koresh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Koresh

Urantians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Urantia_Book#Influence

And many, many more.

Many people want to believe something, that they are somehow superior to others. This can take the form of political denigration, religious mockery, elitism, whatever. A leader charismatic enough to give people what they want will find followers, regardless of the underlying scientific or intellectual construct.

There are lots of people all over the world who are doing it - not inventing Mormonism, but other religions. He would have been a New Ager today, channelling some alien.

No way!...at least not with the same story. The church was divided at his death, and it probably wouldn't have survived very long if Brigham hadn't fled the country with many early saints. The church grew in numbers in Utah largely because many of the members were trapped...they didn't have the means to escape. Reading the journals of early polygamist wives is extremely saddening. It would be far easier today for women in that situation to just get up and go...and the "prophet" wouldn't be able to get away with saying "the indians killed 'em" every time some apostate tried to leave.

Yes:

http://www.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-travel/jesus-of-siberia-part-1

I think he'd probably be the proprietor of a strip joint in Rochester or have a fortune telling business out of his mother's basement.

Not like he did it then. He couldn't disappear in the middle of the night from Kirtland Ohio after the bank went broke and start over in Missouri. The internet would expose him. He'd have to be alot more consistent and honest and upright. Women today wouldn't take to his style, they'd tell the tales. Plus gold plates and magic glasses and stones in hats would just sound too weird today.

Agree. He would have followers but the ability to so totally expose him today would be his undoing. It would have, as others have speculated, been a Koresh-like crash.

In fact, imagine how much harder it would be for us to have proven him so false if we didn't have the knowledge we have about languages, history, etc. By the time the major frauds came out, the momo engine was well running and had already created a very good system of denial and myth propogation.

It would make a great plot for a science fiction movie about time travel where Joey Smith gets plopped down in modern day america.

Every teenager with a cell phone would call him on his hoax.

34 year old - Joey Smith:, "I can read messages from God when I put this rock in my hat and put my face in my hat...it looks like the words on your i-phone....but wayyyyy better."

Young Teenage girls; "WTF...LOL...you think you can read messages from god on a rock? haha....that's bullshit!!!"

Next girl: "Next thing you will be telling us you can find buried treasure and want to have sex with us"

Next girl: "I'm taking a pic of you and sending it to twitter because your a creeper dude...GTF away."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2013 10:09PM by upsidedown.

It's possible, but it could have ended like Jonestown or David Koresh.

Yes! L. Ron Hubbard...then...and now But Joey's been reincarnated as Kevin Tru deau ... and his "religion" is an MLM called GIN. Take a look at his history. Very familiar!

Sorry to take so long to get back to you about our Aussie reincarnated Christ. But here are the details. His name is Allan John Miller. He has a website of sorts at www.aj-miller.com, but if you google his name it will give you several sites.

I hav seen vidoes of him speaking. He is NOT at all charismatic or even very nice. His message? I am Jesus Christ, get used to it!

He of course has his own reincarnated Mary Magdalene with him, and LOTS of people are moving to Kingaroy Queenland (the north east state of Australia) to be near him. INTERESTING!!!

But yep, with the right set of con man tools I think Joseph Smith would have pulled off a massive scam, just like this bloke!

Sure. There will always be people willing to believe silly things, as long as that belief gives them some sort of comfort or feeling of superiority. Despite all the technology and educational tools available today, there are people who believe the earth is flat! Millions of people throw away bucketloads of money to mediums and faith healers. People believe in UFOs, bigfoot, auras, astral projection, and other nonsense for which there is no evidence.

The world is just as full of suckers as it has ever been, if not more so! I think a guy like Joseph Smith would do just fine for himself in this era.

And to those of you saying he'd be caught, WHO CARES? How many psychics and faith healers have been caught out, and yet carried on with their "profession" as though nothing had happened? Look up Peter Popoff. This guy got caught getting hints from a radio receiver and pretending it was "revelation." Proof of his fraud was aired on national television! And yet he's still leading a congregation full of people who worship him as a prophet!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2013 11:49PM by nickname.