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Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 

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4 years ago
touchstone
A LOT happens to babies without their consent. The don't get to choose their parents, some bizarre language gets forced on them, etc. So a bit of perspective is in order. Be that as it may, I recognize consent is an important moral consideration, so I do feel the pull of the argument. But I still remain grateful I didn't have to make the choice myself later on, that my circumcision had already
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4 years ago
touchstone
I think the answer to that question is not yet fully known, but we can get some hints from trends we can see in an increasingly secularized parts of the world. Some will point to the atheism of some totalitarian regimes as evidence, or say they observe an increase in violence, immorality, blah, blah, blah; I often find serious flaws in those lines of arguments. Secularism does seem to promote
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4 years ago
touchstone
I see that the study is a decade old, and that is a consideration. Still, it looks like WHO still takes stock in the idea today: https://www.who.int/hiv/topics/malecircumcision/en/ And I'll reiterate my personal gratitude about having the procedure at the time when it likely causes the least trauma.
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4 years ago
touchstone
World Health Organization findings: https://www.who.int/hiv/pub/malecircumcision/neonatal_child_MC_UNAIDS.pdf One takeaway is that circumcision has been shown statistically to decrease HIV transmission. I'm glad I was circumcised as an infant. Better that than being asked to make that decision after I became capable of erections. From page 6: There are several advantages of circumci
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4 years ago
touchstone
So, secular folks never do fat shaming?
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4 years ago
touchstone
There's a distinction between becoming a Bar/Bat Mitzvah and the ceremony which the term commonly evokes. Ceremony or no, one becomes a 'child of the commandment' (rough translation) when one reaches that age around 13. Different congregations have different rules about for whom they will perform the ceremony; when I was a tutor for these kids I remember that congregation had rules about how m
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4 years ago
touchstone
I completed my conversion to Judaism in 1993. I'm 52, so now I can say I've been a Jew for half my life. My religious life over the past quarter-century has included the zeal of the convert and stretches of barely-involved. Some observations come to mind: Judaism has a diverse spectrum of belief and practice. Religion does not have a monopoly on homophobia. Or stupid. Reform Judaism star
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5 years ago
touchstone
Standing outside the theological question (since I'm not Christian), I regard LDS as one of the various Christian religions. It's clear to me it's a separate religion (not merely a heretical version) from historical/apostolic Christianity, but it's still "Christian" in the sense that it's not Muslim, secular humanist, Buddhist, etc. It's also clear that some versions of Protestantism
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5 years ago
touchstone
No such thing as coerced consent. The term is "submission." If someone submits to a rape, it's still rape.
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6 years ago
touchstone
I don't want to fall victim to my own wishful thinking. I want numbers in statistical format showing LDS decline. At this point, I don't have that. Slowed growth? Yes. Decline? I hope it's on the horizon, but the numbers available to me so far force me to acknowledge that's not where we are today. If anyone has solid statistics to paint another picture, I'd love to see it.
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6 years ago
touchstone
As I understand it the "spectrum" theory (e.g. Kinsey Scale, zero to six) is not about the possibility of an individual's orientation sliding around, altering. Instead, I think it's an expansion on the idea that bisexual folks do indeed exist, or that folks leaning one way or the other in preference needn't be pummeled with the idea "There's no such thing as just a little gay."
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6 years ago
touchstone
This is one study. The study adds to the cumulative build-up of our understanding. It's the article *about* the study which used the eye-catching"No One is 100% straight" tagline to oversimplify what the study found, not the study itself (at least, not in its abstract). There are multiple competing theories and ideas about human sexuality; this study gives added weight to the 'spect
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6 years ago
touchstone
"Here are some problems which often manifest in religions (and elsewhere)" doesn't quite has the same punch for a subject headline as "religion per se is the problem," does it?
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6 years ago
touchstone
I imagine that Sikhs, Baha'i, Unitarian Universalists, Theravada Buddhists share my frustration at how our various religions get put under the same umbrella of condemnation because of what is largely a problem endemic to certain other religious traditions. (Or not. Maybe they have more a sense of humor about it and slyly notice who's *really* being talked about.) The problems identified are not r
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6 years ago
touchstone
This "fish out of water" tale had strong resonances for all the various folks who are "othered" by the over-culture: immigrant, black, gay, disabled, etc. It was an important flip on the tale of the rapacious monster grabbing the white woman who then must be rescued by the white men-- which had also been a coded story with its own set of values: racist, colonialist values.
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6 years ago
touchstone
Y'all might be disappointed. As I said above: The kids brought along a PhD student. While the adults talked, they largely just sat there and maybe listened. It was interesting to hear the (Mormon) PhD student nearly complain as he acknowledged that LDS was run by amateurs with no hermeneutic tradition to speak of. I made sure the missionaries had my contact information, just in case either wi
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6 years ago
touchstone
The kids brought along a PhD student. While the adults talked, they largely just sat there and maybe listened. It was interesting to hear the (Mormon) PhD student nearly complain as he acknowledged that LDS was run by amateurs with no hermeneutic tradition to speak of. I made sure the missionaries had my contact information, just in case either wished to contact me on his own. As they left, I
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6 years ago
touchstone
Tempting, but I think I should avoid mocking. Otherwise, I might tell them about how I was touched by the noodly appendage of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Ramen.
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6 years ago
touchstone
I've just started trying to read up on this story. The first link was to FAIRMormon, which I understand to be pro-Mo apologetics. Can folks point me to a critique of the FairMo position?
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6 years ago
touchstone
My inclination is to reply: Why should your level of internal conviction be persuasive to anyone else? If all folks have is "I'm convinced I'm right," then where does reason-based persuasion come in? I'd be tempted to add, but probably should hold off on saying: It starts to sound like the purpose of your mission is more to ensure your own commitment to these beliefs than to re
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6 years ago
touchstone
I ordered the dvd because it was on the back of a missionary calling card with their phone number. They had offered to hand-deliver the dvd. If they're not prepared with their own marketing materials, that would be amusing and telling. I guess my opening questions should include whether they've seen the film. I'm hearing that I probably need to lower my aim. If I could meet them more than
Forum: Recovery Board
6 years ago
touchstone
Question everything? Why should we do that? What do you mean? One of the first things I remember hearing from my first rabbi was that Judaism was more a religion of questions than of answers. Today I pray for the wisdom and courage to ask the best questions.
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6 years ago
touchstone
I should probably mention I'm a nevermo. Consequently, I'm not in a good position to compare notes with them about Temple experiences, or being intrusively grilled by the bishop on masturbation. I just want to encourage critical thought and counter the blatant lies. I think my first question to them will be "How much time do we have?" If less than an hour, I'll express openness to me
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6 years ago
touchstone
My go-to reply for Noah's-flood literalism is to ask about koalas. So... your claim that this was an historic event implies that koalas (along with all the other land animals in Australia) left a boat in eastern Turkey about 4000 years ago (five thousand, six?), crawled and perhaps swam to Australia, to *only* Australia, leaving no relatives, no cousins, no fossils behind anywhere in east or sou
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6 years ago
touchstone
Please tell me more. Which Cold, Hard, Facts would have done the most good? I'm also surprised to hear that my ideas sounded like "playing around with feelings" to anyone. But I'll take under advisement that my impulse for wanting to explore logical implications might be more convoluted than helpful. I keep wanting to push at "What is the *method* by which one comes to knowledg
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6 years ago
touchstone
You may be right, pettigrew. Of course, the same could be said of playing solitaire, which I occasionally enjoy. Still, for those who can answer, I'd love to hear: When you were a missionary, what do you think would have been helpful for you to hear?
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6 years ago
touchstone
I certainly can't control how they're going to gossip afterwards, but... I keep trying to think about how I can plant seeds, and want to prioritize. "If you went to FLDS territory, and you failed to convince anyone there, I wonder what they'd say about you behind your back after you left?" "Oh, those boys are so deluded, aren't we FLDS folks lucky to be led by the truth, unlike th
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6 years ago
touchstone
At some point I may just need to point out "I'm right because God says so" is not the basis for a rational discussion. It is, frankly, the basis for a lot of violence over the centuries. And I can't help thinking of those high school sports things where the cheerleaders on each side do the chant "We've got spirit, yes we do, we've got spirit, howabout you?" I'd ask if the
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6 years ago
touchstone
Can we role-play? I *think* I know what you mean by "they'll testify like crazy.." but I can't be sure. "Well, that's very nice, but please realize that *I* also have a testimony. I, also, have my personal experiences in my walk with God. With you bringing your experiences to the table, and my bringing my experiences similarly to the table, the question remains-- how are we go
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6 years ago
touchstone
Maybe we could role-play this a bit? I'm expecting to hear "Well, the Spirit confirms to me that the LDS is true, that our faith is true." I would counter with "Well, I'm sure followers of Warren Jeffs say something similar." I'd be tempted, but probably need to resist, to go into "Well, if you have confirmation, in what sense is your faith a "faith"?"
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