Recovery Board
: RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
Hello Fellow Travelers,
Just want to give some of you a heads up that leaving Mormonism may be just be one layer of the onion, so to speak. I'll explain what I mean.
I left Mormonism many years ago. The process was EXTREMELY WRENCHING (But I guess I don't need to tell you that, as many on this board have gone through it or are currently going through it!). It was sometimes terrifying, sometimes exhilarating, and eventually it stabilized into being comfortably Post-Mormon.
But there was still pain, pain that I didn't quite understand. So I kept digging. Eventually I found another layer underneath the Mormon layer. This layer was even more tricky, even more devastating than the Mormon layer.
I came to learn about Narcissism. I learned that both of my parents were narcissists, and that I grew up in a narcissistic family structure. A narcissistic family looks perfect on the outside but is a cruel horror show on the inner hidden levels. This was further compounded by the fact that my parents were not just rank and file Mormons; instead they had "high status" within the Mormon community. For years my father was a Bishop, a Stake President and in a Mission Presidency. My mother held positions as Relief Society President and Young Women's President.
After my father would give yet another moving key-note talk at Stake Conference, people would come up to me and say, "Oh, you're SO LUCKY to have President X as your father....". I was at a loss as to what to say. I also wanted to have that "kind, gentle, compassionate, honorable man" as my father....who would believe me if I tried to describe that he was nothing at all like that outside of his church role. We're talking Dr. Jekyll /Mr. Hyde.
And my Mother. Ohmygod my MOTHER. It took me a long, long, long time to realize that she was a narcissist. That SHE was the power player manuevering my father behind the scenes. That he was the "mean enforcer", but SHE was the one calling the shots. That she was actually MORE malevolent than my father. She was a much more smooth operator than my father. She got all of us kids hating and fearing our father and seeing her as a powerless victim. This was quite a misdirection on her part. Talk about being fooled!
The more I read and studied, the more my childhood home came into focus. If "Families are Forever", I would truly rather live in Hell than be bound to my family of origin for eternity.
I would say that Mormonism played a huge part in keeping me docile, obedient and profoundly naive....the perfect target for unscrupulous narcissists. If I had stayed within the proscribed Mormon "world view", I probably never would have come to learn these things and "wised up" to the human predators amongst us.
Can any of you relate to this?
Just want to give some of you a heads up that leaving Mormonism may be just be one layer of the onion, so to speak. I'll explain what I mean.
I left Mormonism many years ago. The process was EXTREMELY WRENCHING (But I guess I don't need to tell you that, as many on this board have gone through it or are currently going through it!). It was sometimes terrifying, sometimes exhilarating, and eventually it stabilized into being comfortably Post-Mormon.
But there was still pain, pain that I didn't quite understand. So I kept digging. Eventually I found another layer underneath the Mormon layer. This layer was even more tricky, even more devastating than the Mormon layer.
I came to learn about Narcissism. I learned that both of my parents were narcissists, and that I grew up in a narcissistic family structure. A narcissistic family looks perfect on the outside but is a cruel horror show on the inner hidden levels. This was further compounded by the fact that my parents were not just rank and file Mormons; instead they had "high status" within the Mormon community. For years my father was a Bishop, a Stake President and in a Mission Presidency. My mother held positions as Relief Society President and Young Women's President.
After my father would give yet another moving key-note talk at Stake Conference, people would come up to me and say, "Oh, you're SO LUCKY to have President X as your father....". I was at a loss as to what to say. I also wanted to have that "kind, gentle, compassionate, honorable man" as my father....who would believe me if I tried to describe that he was nothing at all like that outside of his church role. We're talking Dr. Jekyll /Mr. Hyde.
And my Mother. Ohmygod my MOTHER. It took me a long, long, long time to realize that she was a narcissist. That SHE was the power player manuevering my father behind the scenes. That he was the "mean enforcer", but SHE was the one calling the shots. That she was actually MORE malevolent than my father. She was a much more smooth operator than my father. She got all of us kids hating and fearing our father and seeing her as a powerless victim. This was quite a misdirection on her part. Talk about being fooled!
The more I read and studied, the more my childhood home came into focus. If "Families are Forever", I would truly rather live in Hell than be bound to my family of origin for eternity.
I would say that Mormonism played a huge part in keeping me docile, obedient and profoundly naive....the perfect target for unscrupulous narcissists. If I had stayed within the proscribed Mormon "world view", I probably never would have come to learn these things and "wised up" to the human predators amongst us.
Can any of you relate to this?
paradox Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And my Mother. Ohmygod my MOTHER. It took me a
> long, long, long time to realize that she was a
> narcissist. That SHE was the power player
> manuevering my father behind the scenes. That he
> was the "mean enforcer", but SHE was the one
> calling the shots. That she was actually MORE
> malevolent than my father. She was a much more
> smooth operator than my father. She got all of us
> kids hating and fearing our father and seeing her
> as a powerless victim. This was quite a
> misdirection on her part. Talk about being fooled!
Uh, yes. Nevermo. My mother was Narcissistic Personality Disorder and my father was Histrionic Personality Disorder. It makes sense that two with personality disorders would be attracted to one another.
I am 50. I was in therapy well over 20 years trying to remake my personality so I could function as an adult in a society where most people don't have personality disorders. I have made a lot of progress but this is their legacy to me. I was estranged from my father the last 25 years of his life. My mother so completely bullied and controlled me that she and I had a co-dependent, dysfunctional relationship until she died when I was 38! If there was a god, I'd thank him that I so lucked out as to have my mother die when I was so young! That was so liberating. My mother was very shrewd, very cunning and very, very popular with people she met and worked with. They just loved Joyce! "Your mother is so classy!" Think what that did for my self-esteem, being her emotionally abused daughter and hearing how great she was.
I have been teaching public high school for 15 years. I have NEVER met a student who I thought came close to being as socially mal-adjusted as I was in high school. Thank god!
I wonder how many other children of personality disordered parents are out there suffering through their lives in this same way.
So yes, I feel your pain.
-------------------------------------------------------
> And my Mother. Ohmygod my MOTHER. It took me a
> long, long, long time to realize that she was a
> narcissist. That SHE was the power player
> manuevering my father behind the scenes. That he
> was the "mean enforcer", but SHE was the one
> calling the shots. That she was actually MORE
> malevolent than my father. She was a much more
> smooth operator than my father. She got all of us
> kids hating and fearing our father and seeing her
> as a powerless victim. This was quite a
> misdirection on her part. Talk about being fooled!
Uh, yes. Nevermo. My mother was Narcissistic Personality Disorder and my father was Histrionic Personality Disorder. It makes sense that two with personality disorders would be attracted to one another.
I am 50. I was in therapy well over 20 years trying to remake my personality so I could function as an adult in a society where most people don't have personality disorders. I have made a lot of progress but this is their legacy to me. I was estranged from my father the last 25 years of his life. My mother so completely bullied and controlled me that she and I had a co-dependent, dysfunctional relationship until she died when I was 38! If there was a god, I'd thank him that I so lucked out as to have my mother die when I was so young! That was so liberating. My mother was very shrewd, very cunning and very, very popular with people she met and worked with. They just loved Joyce! "Your mother is so classy!" Think what that did for my self-esteem, being her emotionally abused daughter and hearing how great she was.
I have been teaching public high school for 15 years. I have NEVER met a student who I thought came close to being as socially mal-adjusted as I was in high school. Thank god!
I wonder how many other children of personality disordered parents are out there suffering through their lives in this same way.
So yes, I feel your pain.
Thanks for your reply, Anontime. I'm 49. Isn't it amazing how long it can take to get wise to these types. From what I've read, people tend to be in their 30's or 40's when they figure it out. I've been reading ACON blogs (Adult Children of Narcissists) where some people comment that they didn't figure it out until they were in their 60's.
I went No Contact with my parents (and by extension, my entire family) in 2000 and at that final visit I "had it out" with my father, as I was sure that he was The Bully. It was 6 months later when the realization of my mother hit me like a ton of bricks. It was like that scene in Ghost where the guy finally realized that it was actually his Best Friend who had been his betrayer...the very last person he would have considered. I cried so hard I could hardly breathe and felt that my body would break apart. My then-boyfriend said that the only time he had seen that kind of crying was "in the face of death." Truly it was a death. It was the death of the mother I thought I'd had. And I grieved for a long time.
But in the past couple of years, I've slowly come to realize that even though I ejected her physically from my life, her "critical parental voice" is still very much ensconced in my head, and it is still coloring many of my social interactions to this day. I've realized that I am still living by the "rules" she imposed on me: That I behave towards her as a slave to a master...that I be her sycophant and never dare to relate to her as an equal, even into my 30's; that I never be smart or competent or articulate because that would threaten to "outshine her"...instead I was there to be her audience and to be the dummling who made her look more smart and competent and witty in comparison.
So I'm realizing that is my template of "my place" in the world. That is the "false self" I took on to please my mother. Except I didn't realize that it was a false self taken on under duress during captivity -- instead I just thought that was the real me, and unwittingly have behaved as that self in my interactions with people in my adult life. Sometimes I tend to approach people in that way (and then feel confused and upset when I'm treated "less than" by others). I didn't realize I was putting myself in a "one down" position, when in reality I don't need to do that anymore. That other person in front of me is NOT my mother, and I do NOT have to play by her rules any more.
It's actually really great to have this new awareness. Because now I can work on stripping away those false beliefs and those false commandments on who I am or who I am allowed to be. I'm guessing this is the kinds of things you worked through in therapy, yes?
I went No Contact with my parents (and by extension, my entire family) in 2000 and at that final visit I "had it out" with my father, as I was sure that he was The Bully. It was 6 months later when the realization of my mother hit me like a ton of bricks. It was like that scene in Ghost where the guy finally realized that it was actually his Best Friend who had been his betrayer...the very last person he would have considered. I cried so hard I could hardly breathe and felt that my body would break apart. My then-boyfriend said that the only time he had seen that kind of crying was "in the face of death." Truly it was a death. It was the death of the mother I thought I'd had. And I grieved for a long time.
But in the past couple of years, I've slowly come to realize that even though I ejected her physically from my life, her "critical parental voice" is still very much ensconced in my head, and it is still coloring many of my social interactions to this day. I've realized that I am still living by the "rules" she imposed on me: That I behave towards her as a slave to a master...that I be her sycophant and never dare to relate to her as an equal, even into my 30's; that I never be smart or competent or articulate because that would threaten to "outshine her"...instead I was there to be her audience and to be the dummling who made her look more smart and competent and witty in comparison.
So I'm realizing that is my template of "my place" in the world. That is the "false self" I took on to please my mother. Except I didn't realize that it was a false self taken on under duress during captivity -- instead I just thought that was the real me, and unwittingly have behaved as that self in my interactions with people in my adult life. Sometimes I tend to approach people in that way (and then feel confused and upset when I'm treated "less than" by others). I didn't realize I was putting myself in a "one down" position, when in reality I don't need to do that anymore. That other person in front of me is NOT my mother, and I do NOT have to play by her rules any more.
It's actually really great to have this new awareness. Because now I can work on stripping away those false beliefs and those false commandments on who I am or who I am allowed to be. I'm guessing this is the kinds of things you worked through in therapy, yes?
I'm really sorry you have had to go through all that.
I am also estranged from my 4 siblings (although I get a text from one sister about once every 6 months.)
Yes, I analyzed the hell out of everything in all those years of therapy. I remember a big breakthrough for me came about 6 months after she died. I struggled for about 6 session before I decided "yes, I can get cable TV even though she wouldn't have approved." God, can you imagine?
And yes, it was a real shocker when I realized that she (not my bumbling, histrionic father) was the really destructive force in my life. But I figured out that one about 3 years into therapy--pretty early on. I couldn't believe it! She wasn't the martyr, she was just a manipulator. But it was still many years before I slowly stopped allowing her to manipulate me.
It's really sad. You just wanted a mother. I just wanted a mother. I remember her routinely saying "no one will ever love you as much as I do." The irony was she was incapable of actually loving because she was so sick.
I was just listening to an episode of This American Life about this kid who is 19 and has known since he was 13 that he's a pedophile. He's got that burden to carry for the rest of his life.
I (and it sounds like you, too) have the legacy of sick parents that will impact my life for the rest of my life. But it could be worse.
Speaking of This American Life, if you have a chance, listen to the episode 175--Babysitting--Act 3, Yes There is a Baby. The mother in this episode reminds me of my own. Mine did different things but definitely the same type of personality. About 5 years ago I played it for that one sister who I rarely have contact with. Didn't explain it. She said "oh, I know why you like this story."
I don't want to sound like a total downer. This sucked. But life really is good.
I am also estranged from my 4 siblings (although I get a text from one sister about once every 6 months.)
Yes, I analyzed the hell out of everything in all those years of therapy. I remember a big breakthrough for me came about 6 months after she died. I struggled for about 6 session before I decided "yes, I can get cable TV even though she wouldn't have approved." God, can you imagine?
And yes, it was a real shocker when I realized that she (not my bumbling, histrionic father) was the really destructive force in my life. But I figured out that one about 3 years into therapy--pretty early on. I couldn't believe it! She wasn't the martyr, she was just a manipulator. But it was still many years before I slowly stopped allowing her to manipulate me.
It's really sad. You just wanted a mother. I just wanted a mother. I remember her routinely saying "no one will ever love you as much as I do." The irony was she was incapable of actually loving because she was so sick.
I was just listening to an episode of This American Life about this kid who is 19 and has known since he was 13 that he's a pedophile. He's got that burden to carry for the rest of his life.
I (and it sounds like you, too) have the legacy of sick parents that will impact my life for the rest of my life. But it could be worse.
Speaking of This American Life, if you have a chance, listen to the episode 175--Babysitting--Act 3, Yes There is a Baby. The mother in this episode reminds me of my own. Mine did different things but definitely the same type of personality. About 5 years ago I played it for that one sister who I rarely have contact with. Didn't explain it. She said "oh, I know why you like this story."
I don't want to sound like a total downer. This sucked. But life really is good.
I envy that.
Wow! I could have written this word for word. It's hard. Plain and simple. I am estranged from my narc mom for 4 years- she so badly wanted to cast me my whole life as the slave to her master but somewhere along the line I grew wise and developed self esteem and had had enough. While I don't wish it on anyone it is truly comforting to know not all people have loving perfect families portrayed in our society all. The. Time. And sadly yes- the relationship ends but the voice is always there
Yes and an amen (not really a religious amen though)! My family was a hotbed of misery, but we always had to present a picture of affluent perfection. It's something that takes years to unravel..so I get where you're coming from.
In my case, I feel that my family would have been full of problems irrespective. What TSCC did was take those problems and pile a lot more on top. Salvation through the Mormon god was a weapon in the hands of my mother.
If your mom was really that successful at manipulation, it may be that she has a couple of personality disorders working in concert. Have you read "Understanding the Borderline Mother"? It talks about archetypes that can shift or appear in concert. One of the archetypes is "the waif", or playing the victim. It's fascinating reading.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0765703319?pc_redir=1409138264&robot_redir=1
Also www.bpdfamily.com is a great resource and support group. It has plenty of information and you'll learn that narcissists and combined borderlines/narcissists/sociopaths, seem to be very attracted to one another; marriages between the two are common.
Of course, I'm taking a leap in assuming you don't know about this stuff. So, sorry if I'm just rehashing what you already know. :-)
In my case, I feel that my family would have been full of problems irrespective. What TSCC did was take those problems and pile a lot more on top. Salvation through the Mormon god was a weapon in the hands of my mother.
If your mom was really that successful at manipulation, it may be that she has a couple of personality disorders working in concert. Have you read "Understanding the Borderline Mother"? It talks about archetypes that can shift or appear in concert. One of the archetypes is "the waif", or playing the victim. It's fascinating reading.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0765703319?pc_redir=1409138264&robot_redir=1
Also www.bpdfamily.com is a great resource and support group. It has plenty of information and you'll learn that narcissists and combined borderlines/narcissists/sociopaths, seem to be very attracted to one another; marriages between the two are common.
Of course, I'm taking a leap in assuming you don't know about this stuff. So, sorry if I'm just rehashing what you already know. :-)
I just finished reading that book a couple months ago. Awesome book that put into plain words what I grew up with (my mom is mostly Queen and Witch, with a little bit of Waif and Hermit mixed in). Also, "Hard to Love" is a decent book about male BPD.
My mother likely developed BPD as a result of living in a extremely narcissistic environment where her parents ate, drank, and slept all things Mormon. She received no love or nurturing as every child desperately needs to develop properly. Church always came first. Fast forward to today and I, a 38 year old male, am dealing with painful and deep seeded issues from being raised by a Borderline (the traits and worldview of BPD tend to be passed down from generation to generation). Mormon doctrine itself provides a breeding ground for Narcissism and BPD. Unfortunately I think society is a ways away from understanding just how destructive these disorders are. Once the light bulb pops on, people will realize that living under a parent with BPD can be worse than physical abuse.
My mother likely developed BPD as a result of living in a extremely narcissistic environment where her parents ate, drank, and slept all things Mormon. She received no love or nurturing as every child desperately needs to develop properly. Church always came first. Fast forward to today and I, a 38 year old male, am dealing with painful and deep seeded issues from being raised by a Borderline (the traits and worldview of BPD tend to be passed down from generation to generation). Mormon doctrine itself provides a breeding ground for Narcissism and BPD. Unfortunately I think society is a ways away from understanding just how destructive these disorders are. Once the light bulb pops on, people will realize that living under a parent with BPD can be worse than physical abuse.
Schmowned, I fear there are a lot of us out there--kids of BPD/NPD parent(s).
That book really did put things in perspective and the section on the impact to the children is a little frightening. For me, just getting a grasp on the fact that there's a diagnosis for it helped.
I also don't think it's something that you ever really get over. For me, it's like having a chronic condition where I constantly need to step back and evaluate situations. I was, at different times of my life, both the "all good" and "all bad" child. Neither situation is good because it sets up a terrible dynamic between siblings. And I will say that it became so bad that I wanted to die. When you're so enmeshed, it feels that you'll never be free. (This could be said of trying to leave Mormonism as well.)
You indicated that you understood why your mum has BPD. I understand why my mum does as well. She grew up in an abusive home that included times of abandonment followed by re-integration into her mother's home which didn't go well. I also believe that my grandmother had a personality disorder.
One thing I will point out, just because we can pin point why they are the way they are, it doesn't mean that we have to let their abusive behaviour continue. I always tell my kids that just because another kid has a bad home life, that doesn't mean that you have to silently endure being their punching bag. I feel that way about my mum. I feel awful for what she went through as a child, but I am not about to let her insert herself into my life or that of my children. The cycle has to end somewhere. Right?
I swear I don't work for BPD family, but if you haven't been to that site yet, it's worth it.
You may be a grown ass 38 yr old dude, but I'm one of those mum types so ((HUGS)). :-)
That book really did put things in perspective and the section on the impact to the children is a little frightening. For me, just getting a grasp on the fact that there's a diagnosis for it helped.
I also don't think it's something that you ever really get over. For me, it's like having a chronic condition where I constantly need to step back and evaluate situations. I was, at different times of my life, both the "all good" and "all bad" child. Neither situation is good because it sets up a terrible dynamic between siblings. And I will say that it became so bad that I wanted to die. When you're so enmeshed, it feels that you'll never be free. (This could be said of trying to leave Mormonism as well.)
You indicated that you understood why your mum has BPD. I understand why my mum does as well. She grew up in an abusive home that included times of abandonment followed by re-integration into her mother's home which didn't go well. I also believe that my grandmother had a personality disorder.
One thing I will point out, just because we can pin point why they are the way they are, it doesn't mean that we have to let their abusive behaviour continue. I always tell my kids that just because another kid has a bad home life, that doesn't mean that you have to silently endure being their punching bag. I feel that way about my mum. I feel awful for what she went through as a child, but I am not about to let her insert herself into my life or that of my children. The cycle has to end somewhere. Right?
I swear I don't work for BPD family, but if you haven't been to that site yet, it's worth it.
You may be a grown ass 38 yr old dude, but I'm one of those mum types so ((HUGS)). :-)
Mormonism is a haven for narcissists. Just look at who started the whole thing. JS was one of the master narcissists of all time. Imagine what he'd have been like if he hadn't been killed for the polygamy/Nauvoo Expositor fiasco.
Seems like the more narcissistic you are the higher you rise in the ranks. But you have so establish a convincingly humble persona during that rise to glory.
Seems like the more narcissistic you are the higher you rise in the ranks. But you have so establish a convincingly humble persona during that rise to glory.
Tom Padley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Seems like the more narcissistic you are the
> higher you rise in the ranks.
Well that just explained a lot to me about the top players in the Church.
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> Seems like the more narcissistic you are the
> higher you rise in the ranks.
Well that just explained a lot to me about the top players in the Church.
This lady psychologist is one of the best I've ever heard at describing narcissistic family structures and the damage they can do:
Alice Miller
http://alice-miller.com/index_en.php
Her book "Drama of the Gifted Child" is very sensitive and wise.
I also recommend looking at split personality syndrome, caused by extreme trauma in childhood, that can create an arrogant narcissistic powerful extrovert on the outside, and a terrified angry child on the inside who is the one that holds all the memories of how they were abused. It's very sad.
You may relate to Martha Beck's book "Leaving the Saints: How I Lost the Mormons and Found My Faith." She describes growing up as the daugher of Hugh Nibley, who the entire Mormon community thought was wonderful. But one telling moment was a night where Martha as a child shrank away from him, and he turned away, muttering "I'm a horrible father, I'm a horrible father." Families are so hard when they are not genuinely loving and healthy.
Alice Miller
http://alice-miller.com/index_en.php
Her book "Drama of the Gifted Child" is very sensitive and wise.
I also recommend looking at split personality syndrome, caused by extreme trauma in childhood, that can create an arrogant narcissistic powerful extrovert on the outside, and a terrified angry child on the inside who is the one that holds all the memories of how they were abused. It's very sad.
You may relate to Martha Beck's book "Leaving the Saints: How I Lost the Mormons and Found My Faith." She describes growing up as the daugher of Hugh Nibley, who the entire Mormon community thought was wonderful. But one telling moment was a night where Martha as a child shrank away from him, and he turned away, muttering "I'm a horrible father, I'm a horrible father." Families are so hard when they are not genuinely loving and healthy.
My dad is a narcissist, but my mom was codependant on my dads narcissist personality disordered dad. Mother ego gratified on my dad being bishop for 15 yes. I was raised in a cult can family inside a cult religion.
A potential problem with being raised by a narcissist is that there is a high probability you will marry a narcissist because you are familiar with the hat personality.
Mormonism encourages narcissism. Christianity should cause narcissists to squirm in there pews.
A potential problem with being raised by a narcissist is that there is a high probability you will marry a narcissist because you are familiar with the hat personality.
Mormonism encourages narcissism. Christianity should cause narcissists to squirm in there pews.
My husband has been diagnosed with NPD and his parents definately have those tendancies. I see him struggle against their authority even though they do not have any. He has always idolized them. They both talked about how they did not like babies and couldn't wait until the baby could do something. Are you kidding me? Babies are the best! You just love them. But I guess they couldn't. My husband has NO EMPATHY. This is due to the fact that his primary care giver did not treat him well. If you read my other posts, you will see how this type of behavior manifests itself after 50 years. It is not pretty. Very intelligent guy too.
Byebye, I don't want to hi-jack this post too much, but I've been following your posts and I am so sorry for what you are going through!
I don't know if you've found a support group, but http://www.bpdfamily.com provides information and an online support network for the family members of people with borderline personality disorder as well as narcissistic personality disorder.
The great thing about the site are the sections on the forum that offer support to the spouses of people with NPD as well as the children of people with NPD. Also, it is not for people with those disorders so that it can be a safe haven for families and spouses. The moderators are really great and extremely supportive. :-)
((Hugs))
I don't know if you've found a support group, but http://www.bpdfamily.com provides information and an online support network for the family members of people with borderline personality disorder as well as narcissistic personality disorder.
The great thing about the site are the sections on the forum that offer support to the spouses of people with NPD as well as the children of people with NPD. Also, it is not for people with those disorders so that it can be a safe haven for families and spouses. The moderators are really great and extremely supportive. :-)
((Hugs))
It looks an excellent resource. I have never been exposed to this info before. I hope it helps. Thanks.
Here's another thing I'll add.
The teachings I learned in church gave VERY BAD ADVICE for how to deal with narcissists.
Remember all those sunday school classes (and some of the myriad other meetings) where the teacher would tell the story listed in the teachers manual of some hypothetical conflict situation and ask "what would you do?" and then proceed to give the advice of what you should do?
Things like
Being nice
Turning the other cheek
Forgiving 70 times 7
and so on.....
Well, those strategies are fine if you have two people who are basically ethical, who have a a certain level of decency and goodwill towards each other. But narcissists are NOT LIKE OTHER PEOPLE. They are not honorable; they are not honest; they do not fight fair. Narcissists view kindness as weakness. If you are kind and forgiving to narcissists, they think of you as a sucker, and then proceed to amp up their abusive behavior all the more. They have the attitude that if you're too "weak" or "stupid" to put up with it, then you deserve it.
The teachings I learned in church gave VERY BAD ADVICE for how to deal with narcissists.
Remember all those sunday school classes (and some of the myriad other meetings) where the teacher would tell the story listed in the teachers manual of some hypothetical conflict situation and ask "what would you do?" and then proceed to give the advice of what you should do?
Things like
Being nice
Turning the other cheek
Forgiving 70 times 7
and so on.....
Well, those strategies are fine if you have two people who are basically ethical, who have a a certain level of decency and goodwill towards each other. But narcissists are NOT LIKE OTHER PEOPLE. They are not honorable; they are not honest; they do not fight fair. Narcissists view kindness as weakness. If you are kind and forgiving to narcissists, they think of you as a sucker, and then proceed to amp up their abusive behavior all the more. They have the attitude that if you're too "weak" or "stupid" to put up with it, then you deserve it.
They are the worst kind. She would use my dad, and my now Ex against me. She also alienated me from all my siblings except one. It took decades to realize what I was dealing with.
Wow. I can relate to some of that.
We were raised to believe that we grew up in a perfect, especially righteous home. I believed that until I was in my 40s.
There was very little yelling, no swearing, and no beatings in our home. We were hugged and told we were loved. Most of the time, things were pretty good. For me, at least. It was rougher for the older kids.
But there was also harsh criticism for those who didn't measure up in any way, and extreme control. And if we made Mom upset, or stressed her out too much, Dad would come down hard on us. Apparently, she was emotionally fragile, and it was the kids' fault if she stressed out.
I always thought of my dad as being harsh and of depriving my mother of the things she wanted. I saw him as domineering and of her as the victim in their relationship. But I never realized how weird it was that she would retell stories over and over again of how he hadn't let her have that dress she wanted 30 years ago, or some other thing he had been supposedly stingy about. These stories painted an unflattering picture of dad, and I resented him for it, but I didn't see what they said about Mom. Yes, he was controlling. But she was passive aggressive, and resentful, and she was playing her own manipulative game, sometimes involving her married children to get what she wanted from my father. I just didn't recognize what was happening.
As she aged, I finally recognized the pattern she still uses whenever she doesn't get what she wants: She plays the overwhelmed and helpless card, and expects everyone to run to her aid or get other people to help her.
Apparently, just ASKing for help when she needs it, wouldn't naturally cross her mind.
I have a sibling who had to cut way back on contact. The demands and the family drama got so bad if she ever didn't "jump" when my parents wanted something that it was affecting her health.
We were raised to believe that we grew up in a perfect, especially righteous home. I believed that until I was in my 40s.
There was very little yelling, no swearing, and no beatings in our home. We were hugged and told we were loved. Most of the time, things were pretty good. For me, at least. It was rougher for the older kids.
But there was also harsh criticism for those who didn't measure up in any way, and extreme control. And if we made Mom upset, or stressed her out too much, Dad would come down hard on us. Apparently, she was emotionally fragile, and it was the kids' fault if she stressed out.
I always thought of my dad as being harsh and of depriving my mother of the things she wanted. I saw him as domineering and of her as the victim in their relationship. But I never realized how weird it was that she would retell stories over and over again of how he hadn't let her have that dress she wanted 30 years ago, or some other thing he had been supposedly stingy about. These stories painted an unflattering picture of dad, and I resented him for it, but I didn't see what they said about Mom. Yes, he was controlling. But she was passive aggressive, and resentful, and she was playing her own manipulative game, sometimes involving her married children to get what she wanted from my father. I just didn't recognize what was happening.
As she aged, I finally recognized the pattern she still uses whenever she doesn't get what she wants: She plays the overwhelmed and helpless card, and expects everyone to run to her aid or get other people to help her.
Apparently, just ASKing for help when she needs it, wouldn't naturally cross her mind.
I have a sibling who had to cut way back on contact. The demands and the family drama got so bad if she ever didn't "jump" when my parents wanted something that it was affecting her health.
that there was very little yelling, actually there was NO yelling. At least, not according to my dad. He never admitted to it. If my mother asked why he was getting mad or yelling about something, he would deny it. No, he wasn't MAD. He was just being 'emphatic'. But for some reason, I feared those supposedly 'not angry' outbursts, which left me emotionally cowering, even if they weren't directed at me. Sometimes they took me completely by surprise because they'd be over the dumbest things. Typical example: We'd ask dad a question several times, and he wouldn't acknowledge our presence or respond in any way. We wouldn't know for sure if he'd even heard. The next time we'd ask, he'd have an angry outburst about not bugging him.
Or maybe we messed up by not doing some chore his way. I remember a number of times him getting mad, and even saying a minor swear, which was completely shocking coming from him. Maybe I messed up on something minor or didn't do something exactly the way he wanted me to. Usually it was on some detail that he hadn't instructed me on. How was I to know what he wanted?
As far as my mother, she would get upset (bringing on the wrath of Dad) because we weren't helping enough, even if she hadn't ASKED for help. We were supposed to assess the situation and just "pitch in". My sister had that happen to her, even as an adult, invited to dinner. She was in the other room doing something, but specifically OFFERED to help. Mom said she didn't need any, and she was just finishing up. A few minutes later, my Dad lit into my sister about not being helpful, and how stressed out my mother was.
Or maybe we messed up by not doing some chore his way. I remember a number of times him getting mad, and even saying a minor swear, which was completely shocking coming from him. Maybe I messed up on something minor or didn't do something exactly the way he wanted me to. Usually it was on some detail that he hadn't instructed me on. How was I to know what he wanted?
As far as my mother, she would get upset (bringing on the wrath of Dad) because we weren't helping enough, even if she hadn't ASKED for help. We were supposed to assess the situation and just "pitch in". My sister had that happen to her, even as an adult, invited to dinner. She was in the other room doing something, but specifically OFFERED to help. Mom said she didn't need any, and she was just finishing up. A few minutes later, my Dad lit into my sister about not being helpful, and how stressed out my mother was.
That term comes from the witch in 'The Wizard of Oz'.
My mother was a master at getting her way through my enabling dad.
My mother was a master at getting her way through my enabling dad.
I'm pretty sure my husband's convert TBM ex wife is a narcissist with some borderline qualities. She is on her third husband and has five kids from her three marriages. Every time she divorces, she makes her kids disown their fathers. She will use any tool to alienate people and/or get them to join her little mini cult. She tried to turn my husband's own parents against him and she was successful in getting his daughters to stop talking to him.
This might make sense if my husband and her first husband were bastards, but they really weren't. I don't know much about her first husband, though my husband knew him in high school. The way he tells it, she married him to get away from her mother, who was supposedly abusive and exploited her. Then she dumped him to marry my husband, whom I'm sure represented a more respectable husband figure for her, since her first husband was enlisted in the Army and my husband is a retired officer.
She asked for a divorce over Easter while they were visiting my husband's dad and stepmother. The kids were present at this visit and she later admitted she had only asked for the divorce as a means of forcing my husband to "rock bottom" and getting him to change into the person she claims he should have been. When he agreed to the divorce, she was reportedly shocked.
Later, she told my husband that her third husband had asked her three times to marry him, but she was holding out for my husband to go back to her. When he told her he planned to propose to me, she quickly married number three and got pregnant. Meanwhile, my husband noticed how much better he was feeling without her in his life. He also ditched the church.
I am delighted she dumped my husband because he's a wonderful guy who has been treated horribly by his ex wife. It took a long time, but once the kids formally disowned him, we were able to go no contact with all of them. It's been a great thing, though every once in awhile, she pops out of the woodwork. I won't be surprised if she pops up again when she thinks she can get away with it.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2014 04:23AM by knotheadusc.
This might make sense if my husband and her first husband were bastards, but they really weren't. I don't know much about her first husband, though my husband knew him in high school. The way he tells it, she married him to get away from her mother, who was supposedly abusive and exploited her. Then she dumped him to marry my husband, whom I'm sure represented a more respectable husband figure for her, since her first husband was enlisted in the Army and my husband is a retired officer.
She asked for a divorce over Easter while they were visiting my husband's dad and stepmother. The kids were present at this visit and she later admitted she had only asked for the divorce as a means of forcing my husband to "rock bottom" and getting him to change into the person she claims he should have been. When he agreed to the divorce, she was reportedly shocked.
Later, she told my husband that her third husband had asked her three times to marry him, but she was holding out for my husband to go back to her. When he told her he planned to propose to me, she quickly married number three and got pregnant. Meanwhile, my husband noticed how much better he was feeling without her in his life. He also ditched the church.
I am delighted she dumped my husband because he's a wonderful guy who has been treated horribly by his ex wife. It took a long time, but once the kids formally disowned him, we were able to go no contact with all of them. It's been a great thing, though every once in awhile, she pops out of the woodwork. I won't be surprised if she pops up again when she thinks she can get away with it.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2014 04:23AM by knotheadusc.
Mormonism was founded by a narcissistic sociopath, is it any wonder that anyone that embraces it isn't screwed up. Consider this paragraph from the book 19th wife (free kindle):
At one of these meetings, William Law electrified and almost stunned his listeners by testifying that the Prophet had made dishonorable proposals to his wife, Mrs. Law, making the request under cover of his asserted "Revelation," that the Lord had commanded that he should take spiritual wives, to add to his glory. He also stated that Smith made his visit to his wife in the middle of the night, when he knew her husband to be absent. Mrs. Law was present, and her husband called upon her to testify as to whether he had made the statement correctly. She corroborated all that he had said, and added that Joseph had asked her to give him half her love; she was at liberty to keep the other half for her husband.
Young, Ann Eliza (2014-08-10). Wife No. 19: The Story of a Life in Bondage, Being a Complete Exposé of Mormonism, and Revealing the Sorrows, Sacrifices and Sufferings of Women in Polygamy (Illustrated) (Kindle Locations 584-589). Enhanced Media. Kindle Edition.
At one of these meetings, William Law electrified and almost stunned his listeners by testifying that the Prophet had made dishonorable proposals to his wife, Mrs. Law, making the request under cover of his asserted "Revelation," that the Lord had commanded that he should take spiritual wives, to add to his glory. He also stated that Smith made his visit to his wife in the middle of the night, when he knew her husband to be absent. Mrs. Law was present, and her husband called upon her to testify as to whether he had made the statement correctly. She corroborated all that he had said, and added that Joseph had asked her to give him half her love; she was at liberty to keep the other half for her husband.
Young, Ann Eliza (2014-08-10). Wife No. 19: The Story of a Life in Bondage, Being a Complete Exposé of Mormonism, and Revealing the Sorrows, Sacrifices and Sufferings of Women in Polygamy (Illustrated) (Kindle Locations 584-589). Enhanced Media. Kindle Edition.
A little more from the same book:
Joseph not only paid his addresses to the young and unmarried women, but he sought "spiritual alliance" with many married ladies who happened to strike his fancy. He taught them that all former marriages were null and void, and that they were at perfect liberty to make another choice of a husband. The marriage covenants were not binding, because they were ratified only by Gentile laws. These laws the Lord did not recognize; consequently all the women were free. Again, he would appeal to their religious sentiments , and their strong desire to enter into the celestial kingdom. He used often to argue in this manner while endeavoring to convince some wavering or unwilling victim: "Now, my dear sister, it is true that your husband is a good man, a very good man, but you and he are by no means kindred spirits, and he will never be able to save you in the celestial kingdom; it has been revealed by the Spirit that you ought to belong to me."
Young, Ann Eliza (2014-08-10). Wife No. 19: The Story of a Life in Bondage, Being a Complete Exposé of Mormonism, and Revealing the Sorrows, Sacrifices and Sufferings of Women in Polygamy (Illustrated) (Kindle Locations 699-705). Enhanced Media. Kindle Edition.
Joseph not only paid his addresses to the young and unmarried women, but he sought "spiritual alliance" with many married ladies who happened to strike his fancy. He taught them that all former marriages were null and void, and that they were at perfect liberty to make another choice of a husband. The marriage covenants were not binding, because they were ratified only by Gentile laws. These laws the Lord did not recognize; consequently all the women were free. Again, he would appeal to their religious sentiments , and their strong desire to enter into the celestial kingdom. He used often to argue in this manner while endeavoring to convince some wavering or unwilling victim: "Now, my dear sister, it is true that your husband is a good man, a very good man, but you and he are by no means kindred spirits, and he will never be able to save you in the celestial kingdom; it has been revealed by the Spirit that you ought to belong to me."
Young, Ann Eliza (2014-08-10). Wife No. 19: The Story of a Life in Bondage, Being a Complete Exposé of Mormonism, and Revealing the Sorrows, Sacrifices and Sufferings of Women in Polygamy (Illustrated) (Kindle Locations 699-705). Enhanced Media. Kindle Edition.
only way out to save oneself is no contact. They become furious to try and show them the error of their ways.
My parents dated in HS. They married at 21 and 20. I was born 18 months later. Neither of them got through a year of college. My sisters came 3 years after me and then they had 2 more.
They just took on too much too early with very little preparation. A lot of the mistakes they made were from being young and naive. Neither of them were 40 when I graduated from high school.
They just took on too much too early with very little preparation. A lot of the mistakes they made were from being young and naive. Neither of them were 40 when I graduated from high school.
I relate almost 100% with this. I see that this was written in August of 2014. I began understanding the narcissism part (after the end of Mormonism part) at around the Spring of 2015 - and I have been digesting the whole thing ever since.
I'm really glad I found this. It's been an extremely degrading and devastating past couple of years waking up to these harsh, intense realities...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2016 07:54PM by Susan I/S.
I'm really glad I found this. It's been an extremely degrading and devastating past couple of years waking up to these harsh, intense realities...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2016 07:54PM by Susan I/S.
I hear you, paradox. My Mormon father was a full blown narcissist, and my mother was of the anything for housing persuasion. My brothers and I were bad and needed frequent beatings and forced deprivation to set us right. Church was a nightmare and home was a torture chamber. Not one of us is psychologically whole. When you damage children, you damage the adults that they will become.
I'm skeptical of the number of people who currently claim to be 'kids of BPD/NPD parents' (those personality disorders are really not at all common and armchair psychology is usually not very accurate), and plus, many kids with BPD parents end up being BPD themselves, so the separation gets blurred. The number one predictor of BPD especially is trauma...nearly everyone with BPD has a history of abuse and trauma, and many accredited psychologists don't even believe it can be categorized as an 'illness' anymore because it's just a catchall term for 'traumatized woman [usually] that we don't know how to categorize/difficult person that we don't know how to help.' Because of this, many psychologists/psychiatrists are skeptical and want to take it out of the DSM altogether. If you were abused and traumatized, you have a much higher chance of having it yourself. But again, there are so few people with these disorders that categorizing them due to your own negative experiences with them, or because they were abusive, can perpetuate stereotypes and stigmas about mental illness. I'm not questioning the abuse; I'm just saying, maybe they're just an abusive asshole. You don't need to have BPD or NPD to do that. A lot of negative behavior we try to assign to mental disorders because it 'explains' it.
That aside, I had a severely abusive parent myself and I know how difficult it is. Coming to forgiveness has been helpful; she, too, was abused. It's very difficult, sometimes almost impossible, not to 'pass it on.' I've worked on it a lot so that I won't when I do have kids. Hugs to you.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2016 06:16PM by woodsmoke.
That aside, I had a severely abusive parent myself and I know how difficult it is. Coming to forgiveness has been helpful; she, too, was abused. It's very difficult, sometimes almost impossible, not to 'pass it on.' I've worked on it a lot so that I won't when I do have kids. Hugs to you.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2016 06:16PM by woodsmoke.
And there's a scale of it, like with other disorders. I personally believe that NPD and ASPD are pretty much the same thing, but the latter is more likely to result in violent and unlawful behaviour.
Maybe, but that's part of the problem--BPD gets lumped in when really it's more of a post-traumatic stress disorder. People also often use "He/she is a narcissist" interchangeably with someone having NPD; again, two totally different things. Moreover, until more research is done, I think it's just as effective to say 'I had an abusive parent who did these fucked up things and it traumatized me' rather than stigmatizing mental illnesses even further when we really DON'T know if they are related or not and when the DSM itself changes so constantly (after all, being gay or trans were in there as 'mental illnesses' until about two seconds ago). The sexist and generally unhelpful nature of BPD diagnosis and treatment is also very well documented (I did part of my dissertation on the evolution of this diagnosis, which is why I know a bit about it). Personally, I find it much more compelling when someone talks about their own trauma than when they try to convince me that someone else has a 'disorder.' Personality disorders, out of all mental illnesses, have the least science backing up the fact that they even exist. Many psychiatrists believe them to be myths.
http://www.emergenceplus.org.uk/what-is-personality-disorder/92-why-are-personality-disorders-controversial-diagnoses.html
http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2008/04/02/why-do-therapists-stigmatize-people-with-borderline/
http://brainblogger.com/2006/06/20/anti-stigmatization-psychiatry-discriminates-against-people-with-borderline-personality-disorder/
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2016 06:47PM by woodsmoke.
http://www.emergenceplus.org.uk/what-is-personality-disorder/92-why-are-personality-disorders-controversial-diagnoses.html
http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2008/04/02/why-do-therapists-stigmatize-people-with-borderline/
http://brainblogger.com/2006/06/20/anti-stigmatization-psychiatry-discriminates-against-people-with-borderline-personality-disorder/
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2016 06:47PM by woodsmoke.
. . . your second and third citations contradict what you are saying. Their argument is not that BPD is misdiagnosed or does not exist, but rather that psychologists discriminate against borderlines because they are so difficult to treat. That presupposes that the disorder exists.
I disagree with other points you make, too. Yes, DSM III is different from DSM III Revised, is different from DSM IV. But all of those take the disorder seriously and are trying to define it more precisely. Other research, meanwhile, suggests that you are correct that there is a bias towards diagnosing BPD in women rather than men and is motivated by a desire to correct that imbalance. Expectations of the disorder are rising from 1% of women and 0.1% of men, presumably the old imbalance that you refer to, towards 3-4% for women and men.
Given that morbidity is still only about 1/20 of society, would it be unreasonable to find a lot of people here who have experienced it and/or NPD? Not at all. The latest data on prison populations puts sociopaths at the highest frequency, somewhere around 40-50% of violent criminals, followed by BPD at around 25-30%. And those data are for men. So if you go into a prison environment, guess what? You're going to find a lot of people with those disorders. If you go to the visiting room of a prison, you'll also find a lot of people who suffered exposure to that sort of disorder. So the fact that people cluster around a diagnosis or two does not mean that they are wrong.
In this thread, the argument is that there is a symbiosis between Mormonism and personality disorders. That seems reasonable to me if there are structural elements of Mormon culture that resemble those that give rise to the disorders--and in my opinion there are. You say that the greatest single factor is childhood trauma. That is not entirely correct. It is trauma or pronounced neglect or a failure of the primary caregiver to provide appropriate mirroring. I think those phenomena do indeed show up with greater frequency in Mormonism, the land of conditional love and overburdened parents.
Can we conclude much from what is written in this thread? No, because people are self-selecting by choosing to participate. But it is too glib to say there is no plausible connection. As Miller wrote about German society decades ago, there could well be elements of a particular society's child-rearing techniques that lead to greater frequency of personality disorders. To that extent what we see in this thread is compatible with the notion that Mormonism produces more NPD and BPD than does general society.
I disagree with other points you make, too. Yes, DSM III is different from DSM III Revised, is different from DSM IV. But all of those take the disorder seriously and are trying to define it more precisely. Other research, meanwhile, suggests that you are correct that there is a bias towards diagnosing BPD in women rather than men and is motivated by a desire to correct that imbalance. Expectations of the disorder are rising from 1% of women and 0.1% of men, presumably the old imbalance that you refer to, towards 3-4% for women and men.
Given that morbidity is still only about 1/20 of society, would it be unreasonable to find a lot of people here who have experienced it and/or NPD? Not at all. The latest data on prison populations puts sociopaths at the highest frequency, somewhere around 40-50% of violent criminals, followed by BPD at around 25-30%. And those data are for men. So if you go into a prison environment, guess what? You're going to find a lot of people with those disorders. If you go to the visiting room of a prison, you'll also find a lot of people who suffered exposure to that sort of disorder. So the fact that people cluster around a diagnosis or two does not mean that they are wrong.
In this thread, the argument is that there is a symbiosis between Mormonism and personality disorders. That seems reasonable to me if there are structural elements of Mormon culture that resemble those that give rise to the disorders--and in my opinion there are. You say that the greatest single factor is childhood trauma. That is not entirely correct. It is trauma or pronounced neglect or a failure of the primary caregiver to provide appropriate mirroring. I think those phenomena do indeed show up with greater frequency in Mormonism, the land of conditional love and overburdened parents.
Can we conclude much from what is written in this thread? No, because people are self-selecting by choosing to participate. But it is too glib to say there is no plausible connection. As Miller wrote about German society decades ago, there could well be elements of a particular society's child-rearing techniques that lead to greater frequency of personality disorders. To that extent what we see in this thread is compatible with the notion that Mormonism produces more NPD and BPD than does general society.
I also wonder if it is appropriate to say that BPD is really, or even often, mislabeled PTSD. In fact, comorbidity of the two disorders is 50%, meaning that if you have BPD you may well have PTSD as well. Comorbidity with major depressive illness is also about 50%.
Is this surprising? No. If you abuse or neglect (extremely) a little kid, you can produce PTSD. The same things also produce major depression. That does not mean that BPD, depression, and PTSD are the same; but it does mean that addressing the causes of one would probably reduce the frequency of the others as well. That obviously has implications for our discussion of Mormonism.
Is this surprising? No. If you abuse or neglect (extremely) a little kid, you can produce PTSD. The same things also produce major depression. That does not mean that BPD, depression, and PTSD are the same; but it does mean that addressing the causes of one would probably reduce the frequency of the others as well. That obviously has implications for our discussion of Mormonism.
"When you damage children, you damage the adults that they will become."
+1
+1
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