Since this debate has generated some interest, I pored through the ARM archives and found my follow-up response. I hadn't read this stuff for more than a decade, until today.
Randy wrote:
>>>> Until 1852, the official policy of the Utah LDS church
>>> concerning "plural marriage" was to deny that they
>>> practiced it, and condemn all those who accused them of
>>> practicing it.
Guy Briggs wrote:
>>> And what was it that happened in 1852 to change things? Oh
>> yes, it was that little thing about presenting it in
>> General Conference for the sustaining vote of the
>> membership, making it official Church doctrine. That's it.
Randy wrote:
>> The subject under discussion here is whether or not early
> Mormon leaders denied or lied about teaching or practicing
> polygamy before 1852.
Guy Briggs wrote:
>Actually, one leader in particular - John Taylor.
Randy's response:
Although Steve Lowther's original point concerned Taylor's 1850 denial of
polygamy, the purpose of my responses and documentation is to show that
Taylor's 1850 prevarication merely followed the pattern of all LDS leaders,
including Joseph Smith, to lie about and/or deny the teaching and practice of
polygamy, until they reversed themselves and admitted it in 1852.
Guy Briggs wrote:
>IIRC, the statement in question was made in 1839, some two years before Joseph
>Smith taught the principle to John Taylor and 3-4 years before Taylor
entered into any plural marriages himself.
Randy's response:
This response indicates that you are either
a) too ignorant of the incident in question to offer any intelligent comments
on the subject, or
b) you are basing your invalid assertion on false information published by
Mormon apologists, or
c) You know the true facts, but you are deliberately lying to defend Mormonism
at the expense of your personal integrity.
The incident under discussion did not take place in 1839, as you falsely
assert, but in 1850, in France, during Taylor's second mission there, when he
himself was fully informed of, and fully immersed in, the secret polygamy
practice.
From
http://smithinstitute.byu.edu/register/t_v.html:
"Taylor, John. Son of James Taylor and Agnes Taylor. Born 1 November 1808 in
Milnthorpe, Westmoreland County, England. Joined Methodist Church about 1823;
subsequently appointed preacher. Emigrated to Toronto, Canada, 1828-29. Married
Leonora Cannon (born 1796 at Isle of Man) 28 January 1833 in Toronto. Four
children: George John, Mary Ann, Joseph James, and Leonora Agnes. Baptized 9
May 1836 by Parley P. Pratt, and ordained elder shortly thereafter. Visited
Kirtland March 1837. Ordained high priest 21 August 1837. Appointed by
revelation 8 July 1838 to be ordained apostle. Moved to Missouri in fall of
1838. Ordained apostle 19 December 1838 in Far West, Missouri. Located
temporarily in Quincy, Illinois, 1839. Accompanied others of Twelve to Far
West, Missouri, 26 April 1838. Located family at Montrose, Iowa, 1839. Mission
to England 1839-41. Left Montrose 8 August 1839. Arrived Liverpool 11 January
1840. Left Liverpool for United States 20 April 1841. Arrived in Nauvoo 1 July
1841. Elected member of Nauvoo City Council and Nauvoo Legion, and regent of
Nauvoo University. Appointed associate editor of the Times and Seasons 3
February 1842. Initiated into Masonry 22 April 1842. Editor-in-chief of Times
and Seasons 1842-1846. Editor and proprietor of Nauvoo Neighbor May
1843-October 1845. Received endowment 28 September 1843. Sealed to Elizabeth
Kaighin 12 December 1843. Three children: Josephine, Thomas Edward, and Arthur
Bruce. Sealed to Jane Ballantyne 25 February 1844. Three children: Richard
James, Annie Maria, and David John. Member of Council of Fifty 10 March 1844.
Accompanied Prophet to Carthage Jail June 1844. Received four balls into body
from guns of mob 27 June 1844. Sealed to Mary Ann Oakley April 1845. Five
children: Henry Edgar, Mary Elizabeth, Brigham John, Ida Oakley, and Ezra
Oakley. Nauvoo Temple sealing to Leonora Cannon 7 January 1846. Nauvoo Temple
sealing to Elizabeth Kaighin (born 1811 in Isle of Man) 14 January 1846. Nauvoo
Temple sealing to Jane Ballantyne (born 1813 in Scotland) 14 January 1846.
Nauvoo Temple sealing to Mary Ann Oakley (born 1826 in New York) 14 January
1846. Nauvoo Temple sealing to Mary Rainsbottom (born 1826 in England) 23
January 1846. Nauvoo Temple sealing for time to Lydia Dibble 30 January 1846.
Left Nauvoo for West in spring of 1846. To Winter Quarters 1846. Mission to
England 1846-47. Arrived in England 3 October 1846. Sealed to Sophia Whitaker
(born 1825 in England) 23 April 1847 at Winter Quarters. Seven children:
Harriet Ann Whitaker, James Whitaker, Hyrum Whitaker, John Whitaker, Helena
Whitaker, Moses Whitaker, and Frederick Whitaker. To Salt Lake Valley in fall
of 1847. Sealed to Harriet Whitaker (born 1825 in England) 4 December 1847 in
Salt Lake Valley. Three children: Sophia Elizabeth, William Whitaker, and John.
Elected associate judge of provisional State of Deseret 12 March 1849. Called
on mission to France October 1849. Arrived in Liverpool 27 May 1850. Arrived in
Boulogne, France, 18 June 1850. Left England for United States 6 March 1852.
Arrived in Salt Lake City 20 August 1852."
Note that BYU's official biography of Taylor names the seven women to whom he
was "sealed", all before 1850, as well as children born of those relationships,
indicating that they were sexual in nature, making them polygamy in very deed.
(Other historians claim that Taylor actually had 15 plural wives by 1850.) The
bio also documents Taylor's arrival in Boulogne, France, on June 18, 1850, to
begin his second European mission.
I have recommended several times that readers who are interested in learning
the facts about Taylor's and other Mormon leaders prevarications on this issue,
should read Fannie Stenhouse's "Tell It All," to obtain a first-hand account of
the events in their historical context. Since you are apparently not willing
to read it for yourself, I'll provide the relevant excerpts, beginning from
page 97 of her autobiography, with a conversation with a friend, Mary Burton:
"Sister Stenhouse, do you know the meaning of the word Polygamy!" "Why, what a
funny question to ask me, child!" I exclaimed. "Child, you call me, Sister
Stenhouse, but I'm not a child at least not quite a child-I shall be fifteen
next birthday." "Well dear," I said, "I did not mean to offend you; and I call
you 'child' because I love you; but you asked me such a strange question and
used such a strange word. "This was quite true, for at that time the word
Polygamy was as seldom used as the word 'polyandry,' or any other word
signifying a state of things with which we have nothing to do."I'm not
offended," she said, "only people have a way of treating me as if I were only
such a very little girl: -I suppose I look so." She certainly did look so, and
I suppose she read my thoughts. Womanhood, by and by, brought to her more of
reality both in face and figure as well as in the terrible facts of life; but
at that time the term "little fairy," which I have so often used respecting
her, seemed the most appropriate. The meaning of that terrible word "Polygamy"
she understood, in later years, fully as well as I did. "Well dear," I said,
"Why did you ask me that strange question?" "You must promise not to be angry
with me if I tell you," she answered, "and yet I think you ought to know." I
readily promised-what could I have refused her?-and she said: "The other day
two of the Sisters were at our house-I may not tell you their names for fear of
making mischief and they were talking together between themselves and did not
notice that I was present-or else they didn't care. And I heard one of them
tell the other that she had heard secretly that in Zion men were allowed to
have many wives, and she used that word "Polygamy" very often, and said that
was what the world called it." "Well, Mary dear," I replied, "that is no great
secret. We have all heard that said before. Wicked people who hate the Gospel
say that, and a great deal more, in order to bring scandal upon the Church; but
of course it isn't true." "Ah, but I haven't told you all," she said, "the
sisters had a long talk about it and they explained who they heard it from, and
it was from no one outside the Church; and then one of them said that Elder
Stenhouse had heard all about it and knew it was true, only of course he did
not talk about such things yet; but that the time would come when everyone
would acknowledge it, and all the Saints would have many wives. I was
frightened when I heard this, and very angry-for I thought of you-and I spoke
to her and said itwas all untrue and I'd ask Elder Stenhouse; and they scolded
me very much for saying so, and said it was very wicked for a child to listen,
and that was why I did not like you to call me 'child." '"Well darling," I
said, "I'll not offend you any more in that way-and it was very good of you to
tell me anything you thought I ought to know." Then I kissed her, and
continued: "But, after all, I don't think it's of any consequence. It's the
old scandal, just as in the early days they said wicked things of Christ and
His apostles. Elder Stenhouse knows all that people say, but he has told me
again and again that there is not a word of truth in it, and I believe him."
"You think so, Sister Stenhouse," she replied, "and I suppose I ought to think
so too, but if it's all false how did people first begin to think of it?
People don't say that theMormons are murderers or thieves, because we have
given them no reason to think so. Then why should they think of such an
unheard-of thing as Polygamy- surely there must have been some reason. Don't
you think so?" "No, dear," I answered, " Elder Stenhouse says that some very
wicked men have sometimes joined the Church, and have done all manner of
shocking things, so that they had to be cut off, and then they went about
trying to make other people believe that the Mormons were as wicked as they
were. There was John C. Bennett who lived a frightful life at Nauvoo, and then
tried to make out that Joseph Smith was as bad as he was. And Marsh, the
president of the twelve apostles, and Orson Hyde, when they apostatised not
only said bad things of Joseph, but took affidavit and swore solemnly before
the magistrates that the prophet had been guilty of the'most fearful crimes."
I kissed her again, and she said, "Well, perhaps you are right"; but I could
see that in her heart she was not convinced. Then we talked of ourselves and
all that interested us, and she told me all her childish hopes and ambitions;
and to me young as I was myself-it was pleasant to listen to her innocent
prattle. She promised to come and see me when Elder Stenhouse had gone and I
should be left alone; and when we got back to the rest of the party we were as
firm friends as if we had known each other a lifetime. At midnight, Saturday,
June I5th, I850, the steamer left Southampton for Havre-de-Grace, bearing on
board the first two Mormon Missionaries to Italy-one of them was my
husband.....
[Note that Stenhouse affirms that Mormon leaders claimed that rumors of
polygamy were "lies" spread by "wicked people" and apostates. These efforts to
blame rumors of polygamy on other people puts Mormon leaders beyond the realm
of merely withholding facts, and installs them into the category of deliberate
deception.]
Although Polygamy was utterly denied by the Missionaries in Europe, yet long
before it was openly avowed a great deal was written and said on the subject.
Joseph Smith, whatever he said and did in private, always denied it in public,
and after his death the leaders of the Church followed his example. In some
way, however, an idea had got abroad that the Mormons were somewhat unsound
respecting the marriage question. Still the elders stoutly denied the charge,
and the more they were accused the more strenuous became their denials. At a
public discussion at Boulogne-sur-mer in France, the Apostle John Taylor, in
reply to the accusations of Polygamy which were brought against him, said: "We
are accused here of actions the most indelicate and disgusting, such as none
but a corrupt and depraved heart could have contrived. These things were too
outrageous to admit of belief....... I shall content myself with quoting our
views of chastity and marriage from a work published by us, containing some of
our articles of faith-Doctrine and Covenants." He then proceeded to quote from
the Book of Doctrine and Covenants such passages as the following: "Marriage
is ordained by God unto man; wherefore it is lawful that he should have one
wife, and they twain should be one flesh. [p. 218]. He quoted many other
things also, among which might be enumerated the following: "Thou shalt love
thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her, and none else." He
quoted also many other passages of Scripture which had reference to the
subject;-each powerful to put aside even the idea of polygamy; and each equally
powerful as an argument against polygamy itself. Let the reader here note the
value of what Mormons say when their faith is called in question:-See and
judge: Brother Taylor, who spoke at that meeting, and utterly denied polygamy,
had himself---at that very moment when he so atrociously perjured himself and
when he swore that no Mormon had more than one wife---five wives living in Salt
Lake City: One of his friends there present had two wives; and the other was
married to a mother and her own daughter! Any conclusion, any expression of
disgust at these abominations and deliberate perjuries, I leave to the
reader.".....
In the beginning of June a General Conference of the branches of the Church in
Britain was held in London. The Apostles and foreign Missionaries were present,
and my husband and I were also there. We had speeches and prayers. The
business of the Conference occupied but very few minutes, for no measure was
questioned. Among the Mormons there are no opinions, no discussion. The
presiding head has made out his programme before he comes to the conference; he
knows what he wants to do, and no one ever questions him. He may perhaps for
form's sake invite the brethren to speak on any point he introduces; but when
he has furnished the clew to his wishes, the Elders who speak only spend their
time in arguments in favor of his measures. At the Conference of which I speak
the reports of the native elders were very cheering to us. Throughout England
and Wales they had been most successful in adding members to the Church.
Mormonism was then most successfully preached in Britain. There were more
Mormons there than in all Utah Territory: there were fifty Conferences, with
over seven hundred organised "Branches," and more than six thousand men
ordained to the priesthood. That peculiar influence which the Mormons call
"the Spirit," of which I have spoken, elsewhere, was spoken of by the Elders as
being a common experience everywhere. During all that Conference, I listened
carefully for a word from the lips of any of the speakers which might indicate
in any way that Polygamy was part of the Mormon faith; but not a whisper, not a
hint was uttered. I naturally concluded that the Elders, whose doubtful
expressions at Southampton had so troubled my mind, were misinformed or unsafe
men. Still I could not altogether banish my apprehension of coming evil; but
so bound to secresy were those who did know of Polygamy being practiced in
Utah, that there was not one who would admit it, and even my own husband's lips
were sealed to me. He did not deny it, but he would not talk about it, and did
everything he could to banish the thought from my mind.
Stenhouse then quotes a later letter from her friend Mary Burton:
Since you went, I have grown quite an old woman. You used to call me:' little
fairy," but, Sister Stenhouse, I am much bigger now. I am now a good deal over
fifteen, and people say that I am getting to be quite a woman. I might tell
you some other pretty things that are said about me, but I'm afraid you'd say
it was all vanity of vanities. If you stay away much longer you won't
recognise me when we meet again. And now I want to tell you something that
interests you as much as me. I have not been able to discover anything more
with certainty about those hateful things of which I told you, although the
word Polygamy seems to me to become every day much more familiar in people's
conversation. Elder Shrewsbury tells me that there is not a word of truth in
it, and he has had a good deal of conversation upon that subject with the
apostles who are here, and also with a man named Curtis E. Bolton-an Elder from
the Salt Lake; and they all positively declare that it is a foul slander upon
the Saints of the Most High. So you see that all our unhappiness was for
nought. Our Saviour said we should be blessed when all men spoke evil of us
falsely for His name's sake; and the wicked scandal which has been raised
against our religion has had a tendency to strengthen my faith, which you know
was rather wavering. And yet do you know, Sister Stenhouse, that even while I
am writing to you in this strain, I am weak enough to allow doubts and fears to
creep into my heart when I think of the conduct of some of the American
brethren. They appear to me, for married men, to act so very imprudently; and
to call their conduct 'imprudent' is really treating it with the greatest
leniency, for I have often been quite shocked at the way in which some of the
brethren and sisters acted.
I read this letter carefully through, and I sat down and thought of dear Mary
Burton, and felt deeply sorry that she should be placed in a situation
surrounded by so many temptations. To myself the letter brought a sad
confirmation of all my fears. There was something painful in the thought. Had
polygamy been openly avowed as a Mormon doctrine I should never have joined the
Church. But now, what could I do?
I was now more than ever anxious about Polygamy. From much thinking on that
subject, it had become the haunting spectre of my existence, and I dreaded what
every day might bring forth. The news which my husband brought with him by no
means reassured me. He told me that he had heard in England from the American
Elders that there was a general expectation among the Saints in Utah that at
the October Conference in Salt Lake City, Brigham Young would publish to the
world that Polygamy was a doctrine of the Mormon Church. After all the
prevarications and denials then of the Apostles and Elders, Polygamy among the
Saints was really a fact. As the truth became clearer to my mind, I thought I
should lose my senses;-the very foundations of my faith were shaken, and not
only did I feel a personal repugnance to the unholy doctrine, but I began to
realise that the men to whom I had listened with such profound respect and had
regarded as the representatives of God, had been guilty of the most deliberate
and unblushing falsehood, and I began to ask myself whether if they could do
this in order to carry out their purpose in one particular, might they not be
guilty of deception upon other points? Who could I trust now? For ten years
the Mormon Prophets and Apostles had been living in Polygamy at home, while
abroad they vehemently denied it and spoke of it as a deadly sin. This was a
painful awakening to me; we had all of us been betrayed; I lost confidence in
man, and even began to question within myself whether I could even trust in
God. There was no argument between Mr. Stenhouse and myself. It would have
been worse than useless, for it was not his doing, and he assured me that he
had as great a repugnance to the doctrine as I had. He had at first only
hinted that it might eventually be acknowledged by the leaders of the Church,
but it was a matter of too deeply a personal character for me to keep silence,
and I did not rest until he had told me all.....
After discovering that the previously-denied "revelation on celestial
marriage" was indeed a reality, Stenhouse then quotes from a letter from
another Mormon friend, one Madame Baliff:
...... I am very miserable, Sister Stenhouse, and furiously indigonant. I
little thought when I last wrote to you that I should have such news to tell;
but I suppose you know it all without my saying a word. How we all felt when
we first learned that Polygamy was true, no words of mine can describe; we
hardly dared look one another in the face. Let me tell you how it was. One
night, quite late, Elder Shrewsbury came round in a hurry, and asked to see me.
I went down into the parlour to meet him, and Mrs. Elsworth came down also,
and remained until he went away. Elder Shrewsbury looked very strange that
night, just like a man who had been doing something wrong and was ashamed of
it-and well he might feel so. He began by talking to Mrs. Elsworth about the
weather, and when they had both said all they could think of on that
interesting and original subject, we all three sat silent for some time. Elder
Shrewsbury at last spoke. He excused himself for coming so late, but he said
he had only just received some important news, and could not rest until he had
seen us. He had been round at the Conference-house, and had there seen a good
many of the Elders. They were all talking earnestly upon the same subject, for
that day they had received not only letters from the Apostle at Liverpool, but
also copies of the Millennial Star, with the Revelation in it, which I suppose
you have seen. Of course it was impossible for them to doubt any longer, but
most of them felt it was a cruel blow. Elder Shrewsbury said they looked at
one another, but did not dare to speak. Nearly all of them had been anxiously
trying to get rid of the false scandal, as they supposed the accusation of
Polygamy to be; and in public in their sermons, and in private to all the weak
brethren, they had over and over again solemnly declared that Polygamy was
unheard of among the Saints, that it was a Gentile lie; and they had proved
from the Bible, and from the Book of Mormon, that a doctrine so sinful could
never be believed or practiced by God's people. Now, all this would be thrown
in their teeth. Those who hated Mormonism would revile them for it, and, worse
still, the Saints themselves would despise and doubt them for the lies which
many of them had innocently told. Who could tell where all this would end?
When they were found to have been deceived in a matter like Polygamy, about
which it was so easy to arrive at facts and certainty, who would trust them
concerning other doctrines which depended upon their veracity and testimony
alone? Then, too, there was worse to be said about the American Elders and
Apostles. Who could believe that Orson Pratt or Lorenzo Snow knew nothing of
Polygamy? And yet they denied it in the most solemn way. And, oh, Sister
Stenhouse, think of the Apostle Taylor calling God to witness his truth when he
proved from the Book of Covenants that there was no such thing as Polygamy: and
all the while he had himself five wives in Salt Lake City! Oh, my! This is
dreadful. Whether the doctrine is true or not, I can never believe that God
would forgive all that abominable lying about it. But I was telling you of
that evening. Elder Shrewsbury told us all this, but he spoke slowly and
disjointedly, like a man whose mind is troubled. He said he hardly knew what
he was doing. Then he gave Mrs. Elsworth a copy of the Star, and he asked me,
too, to read the Revelation carefully before I condemned it. "If the
Revelation, as you call it, allows Polygamy," I exclaimed, "it is a lie, and I
hate and despise it, and you, and Mormonism, and all!" I was quite in a fury,
and I did feel as if I hated him then.
Stenhouse then relates an example of the effect the "revelation" had on naive,
trusting, European converts:
T'was fortunate for the Swiss Mission that the new converts in general could
not read any language but their own, and thus were ignorant of the deceptions
which the American Elders had practiced upon the people. Monsieur Petitpierre,
the Protestant minister, who thought that the Revelation ought to be
"prayerfully considered," was the only one who understood English, and his
knowledge was very limited. His wife did not at all coincide with him about
the prayerful consideration of Polygamy; she disposed of the subject without
any prayer at all, and it is to be regretted that in this respect the whole
body of the Mormon women did not follow her example.
Stenhouse then relates how Mormon leaders' lies and reversal of position on
polygamy negatively affected church growth in Europe:
The Pastor over the London and adjoining Conferences was the son of one of the
chief Apostles in Utah-a young man, whose good nature was far better than his
religion. He visited us very frequently, and used to bring with him the
distinguished American Elders who might be visiting the metropolis. I have no
doubt that they were sincere in their desire to do me good, but it was not kind
attentions that I then needed, it was the removal of the cause of my sorrows.
They tried to persuade me that it was all "the work of the Lord;" but I could
not see it in that light, and very often in reply to their consolations I said
very hard things of Polygamy and the leaders of the Church, whose conduct I
considered sinful. And in this I did not stand alone, for I soon found that
the President of the Conference-Elder Marsden-had been in the same position for
years, and his wife was "quite through" with Mormonism. In fact, so great had
been the distrust occasioned by Polygamy, that in the report ending June 30th,
I853, it was stated that from the whole British Church-which then numbered very
nearly thirty-one thousand souls-seventeen hundred and seventy-six had been
excommunicated for apostasy! Of those who remained faithful I cannot give a
much more cheering account. The Elders who visited President Marsden made as
damaging reports of the condition of the Saints as their worst enemies could
desire. All that my young friend, Mary Burton, had told me did not equal the
truth of what I saw for myself. No one had any confidence now in what the
Elders said;-how could they be trusted after so many years of deception?
End quotes. Stenhouse shows that Mormon leaders effectively maintained a
pattern of deceit before the entire European continent, including some 31,000
converts to Mormonism for years, and that nearly 1,800 of them abandoned
Mormonism because of those lies. Obviously, that culture of deceit caused a
major shock wave in Mormon efforts in Europe. Thus, Guy, your attempts to
show that Taylor's remarks were not lies are trounced by the documented facts
of history.
In addition, I have repeated several times another denial of polygamy from the
"Times and Seasons", vol. 6, pg. 894 (May 1, 1845):
"As to the charge of polygamy, I will quote from the Book of Doctrine and
Covenants, which is the subscribed faith of the church and is strictly
enforced. Article of Marriage, sec. 91, par. 4, says, "Inasmuch as this church
of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we
declare that we believe that one man should have but one husband except in the
case of death when either is at liberty to marry again." Sec. 12, par. 7.
"Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart and shall cleave unto her and NONE
ELSE." In ancient till God cleanses the earth, and restores the government of
his says, "know this that, in (the last days of perilous times shall come), for
men shall be TRAITORS, FALSE ACCUSERS, INCONTINENT, fierce despiser of those
that are good. No wonder then that apostates rage, or that the fulness of
truth revealed again should bring a storm of persecution."
As the BYU bio of Taylor quoted above shows, Taylor was the editor of the
"Times and Seasons." Thus, the 1846 denial of polygamy, and its attempt to
saddle rumors of it onto "false accusers," was likely penned by Taylor himself.
That demonstrates two facts: One, Taylor was an "equal opportunity liar," who
spread falsehoods about polygamy on two continents, America and Europe; and
two, your deceitful attempt to claim that Taylor's denial of polygamy came in
1839, before he was aware of the practice, is further trounced by the fact that
he continued to deny polygamy in the official church newspaper in 1846.
In other words, Guy---your credibility on this subject is non-existent.
Late LDS Apostle John A. Widtsoe admitted that church leaders lied about
polygamy in the Nauvoo era: "Authentic history says that plural marriage
originated with Joseph Smith the Prophet. And so it did. The apparent denials
by Church leaders in Nauvoo days that the Church practised polygamy were
correct." (Evidences and Reconciliations, p. 344.)
Seeing as how Widtsoe conceded that early Mormon leaders denied practicing
polygamy (which equated to lying), it's futile for modern Mopologists like Guy
Briggs to still try to claim that they did not. At some point, the rational
mind just has to accept the facts and concede the issue. Guy, here is an
excellent opportunity to show the forum whether or not you possess a rational
mind.
Randy J.