This forum has a collective wisdom that cannot be duplicated. Especially in that the group mindset here comes from a common place which is a domineering, controlling so-called church and the scars are similar, if not identical.

With that in mind, I come to you for your advice on a matter that is troubling to me.

The backstory: I grew up believing that the church treated me like crap because I was of lesser quality and virtue. I carry that feeling of inferiority to this day. I settled on a crummy career path, I married a poor match because I didn't think I deserved better, pretty much my whole life I've underestimated myself and settled for less.

The years are starting to go by faster, the kids are gone and I'm feeling underwhelmed at the prospect of winding up my years in this place that I thought was all I deserved.

The person I married is borderline narcissistic combined with hypochondriac tendencies. The combination of these two characteristics requires that I put aside my interests and follow her lead on everything. My suggestions are usually squelched and if she acquiesces, whatever I have chosen is met with obvious boredom and disinterest, making the whole thing a miserable experience. If her boredom doesn't spoil it, she will move on to physical symptoms like stomach troubles, headaches or whatever ailment will get attention directed to her.

It's not all bad, but our life teeters on the fine line between tolerable and miserable. I am beginning to realize that I could raise the bar. However, it would only be raised on my side, she is doggedly determined to live a life of a victim of all that is bad in the world.

After 25 years of this, I'm close to losing my mind, possibly not in a good way. I would like to cut and run and start my own life from scratch, doing what I want. I have been able to see what I've done to my life so far after being here at RfM and learning so much about the church and it's manipulation of young minds. It is because of this forum I am starting to yearn for a genuine life of my own.

Does this scenario resonate with anyone else here? If so, do you have any advice? I still have a great deal of difficulty trusting my personal thoughts, and I'm taking a leap here because I contemplate my problems in my own head and have never confided in anyone regarding this most important, but difficult issue. I'm hoping that this doesn't sound trivial or whiny. I'm just trying to find out if my talking to myself about it has led me to not seeing things clearly.

Help? Anyone?

From the way you phrased your post, it seems like you are approaching this with a level head and clarity.

You deserve to be happy. Why not a trial separation? See how you feel on your own, see how she responds. Your wife may be capable of sons positive change when faced with how unhappy you are. Most of all, you would get to really be yourself and try out how it would feel to be single.

Not that I think you would, but avoiding drama and hurtful words would be a great thing. Just be mattered of fact. If she wants to throw a tantrum just disengage.

Best of luck to you as you move forward!

Maybe find a reputable non-LDS counselor?

Life is short. I know someone who wore similar relationship shoes. He is now single, content, semi-retired. He is no longer a literal slave to a mentally ill hypochondriac.

At the very least, get therapy, now. Carve out some time for yourself. Take up golf or fishing (a huge amount of time necessary for these activities). Plan your escape, methodically. It will give you something to live for. Good luck.

Link: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-legacy-distorted-love/201103/the-six-faces-maternal-narcissism

I know you are talking about your wife, not your mother, but that short list might be helpful. From that list, my mother was psychosomatic and emotionally needy.

My mother just passed away. She was very old. I believe she was narcissistic, and used a variety of real ailments, including chronic pain, to illicit sympathy, attention, and get what she wanted. I had to set limits on what I would do for her. But it still affected me far more than I realized.

I feel guilty for saying this, but since she passed, the sense of relief has been shocking. I feel like my life is completely mine again. I'm more motivated, energetic, I'm thinking more clearly, and getting so much more done. Other siblings have reported the same thing. One sibling even told me some of their physical ailments have improved dramatically.

One of the hardest things about a narcissist who controls from a position of the martyr, is that you are never quite sure if they know what they are doing to the people around them, or if they are just too sick, depressed, or desperate to care. And if you don't rescue them, they might convince other people that you are neglectful and unloving, and enlist them to pressure and cajole you to do more. Needless to say, that causes problems between members of the family.

Your wife might benefit from an anti-depressant. My mother was helped quite a bit at the end by that, and a times she seemed a different person.

I suggest you start making your life better, with or without her, by deciding on some things you want to do. By yourself, and for yourself. If I'm reading this right, if you have her along, she'll sabotage the outing, or ruin your good time, and then spend the next couple days guilting you about how it wore her out. You need a break from your caretaker role. In fact, when WAS anything ever about you? Take a evening off by yourself. Or a weekend.

I suggest you confront her about at least some of her complaints. My mother usually melted into a puddle of tears and acted like she was crushed when anyone tried to call her on anything, but I found it still improved behavior for a while.

I also suggest counseling. For you and as a couple.

Just a few things I'm curious if we have in common:

*I don't think my mother was capable of deep emotional connection to other people. I think the only way she connected was through getting (never giving) attention or sympathy. Most other emotions she expressed seemed superficial.

*I believe that we, her children, were completely interchangeable. I think we were interchangeable with her caretakers as well. I don't believe she cared who she was talking to, as long as she was talking. I'm telling you this because if your wife is like this, she'll be okay without YOU. She'd be just as happy, or UNhappy with anyone who takes care of her. I'm not saying this to make you feel bad. I'm saying it to make you feel BETTER. My father took care of my mother most of her life. When he passed, she was just fine and her needs still got met. I'm not even sure if she missed him. But she has always found a way to get what she needs.

Ultimately, you absolutely deserve a better life. Having a one-sided relationship with emotional vampire who never gives back will suck you dry. Maybe she can change, maybe not. But YOU can.



*CAUTION: if your wife isn't the melting, guilt-wielding kind of narcissist, when you confront her, she may fly into an abusive rage. Have an exit plan to end that conversation. Do not sit and take it. But even if she does explode, you'll have more information on whether the relationship is workable.

Well, I feel better just knowing that once again, I am NOT alone-others have seen/experienced the behaviors I'm dealing with.

Thank you for the suggestions. Straight away, counseling is out. Tried that before with very poor result.

I believe that the suggestions to work my way into finding things to do that I desire and build up my 'alone time' account is a step in the right direction. Although I anticipate sabotage that will be designed in a way that she needs my presence for some reason or other is going to occur. As I think about that, it starts to become clear that I have deeply ingrained 'obedience' behaviors that I have to overcome. I have spent way too much time worrying about being where I am expected to be at any given moment. Sheesh. I need to put myself in charge much more than I am. I suspect that the things I am 'in charge of' are things she doesn't really care about. I gotta expand that list to my favor.

Thanks again, at least now I know that I'm somewhat rational in what I'm thinking.

I don't know much about relationships, people, or psychology. Have you considered a fast, loud motorcycle? Or maybe a sports car?

First, I must say that I am in my early twenties and have not been married, and can't possibly understand what a 25 year marriage would really be like. I do know couples who have been married for decades, and I have observed that there are three general types of long term marriage relationships: those that are angry with varying degrees of abuse, those that are platonic with varying degrees of boredom, and those that have a mature love with bouts of hot passion.

Personally, when I grow older, I would want to spend the second half of my life in love with someone with a lot of hot passion!

Pyper Pepperpot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Personally, when I grow older, I would want to
> spend the second half of my life in love with
> someone with a lot of hot passion!

Oh, YEAH......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:D :D :D

First wife was always using illness to get attention and sympathy, and to get people on her side, etc.

I'm not sure about her narcissistic (think that term is thrown around a little too much on this forum) levels, but she was a master manipulator of every scenario.

All I can say is I'm glad we are divorced. I wasn't the type to accept her BS so I'd call her on it, which just made it worse of course. Ha ha ha.

I eventually realised that every effort of mine to break down her barriers basically made them stronger. Every time I thought I had the upper hand in a situation and my position was very logical and made sense, she'd blindside me and 'win'. She was simply always several steps ahead of me, and I'm a smart guy.

I'll repeat, I'm much, much happier that I'm out of that situation. The pain of the divorce was worth it once out the other side.

My words aren't worth much, but you're in a controlling relationship, and you now see that. YEA! The first step is the hardest - recognizing where you are.

You have some good advice above. Get counseling, alone or together. You sound stable and sane. The counseling for you will really be to have a "neutral" sounding board to talk out what you want and where you want to be. Counseling for you together is unlikely to work at all, because she sounds content in her misery.

Are you happier alone or together? The only way to answer that may be a trial separation as discussed above.

Definitely get some hobbies/people of your own. Buy an apiary. Join a motorcycle gang. Paint. Weld. Race cars. Scuba dive. Garden. Whatever strikes your fancy. If she wants to come, let her, expecting a meltdown. Know it's coming. When it arrives, either send her home alone (if you have a ride), or bow out early and take her home. The next time you go, she isn't invited. When she complains, point out how much misery it caused her last time. See, you're caring!

But I would find a real, neutral human to talk it out with. You probably won't need to go but 3 times.

I would start to get a life of your own. Go see a movie by yourself. Play golf, fish, do woodworking, go out to a restaurant, or whatever. Go away for the weekend. Travel. Either go by yourself or with a male buddy. But start making a huge chunk of your time about you and about what you want. Stop seeing your wife as the deal-breaker. If she doesn't want to do what you want to do, or can't put on a happy face about it, do it by yourself. She's gotten her way for more than long enough.

Once you have achieved a greater independence, then start thinking about how you want to spend the rest of your life. I've always said that there are worse things in life than being single.

You do not have to start with divorce in order to change the dynamics of your marriage. Start by standing up for what you need. You are choosing to accept, but you do not have to do that. You cannot blame a spouse for what you could do differently when you chose to.

Now, I'll admit that 25 year old habits are hard to break. But that doesn't mean you can't.

If you don't work through how and why you've not addressed this until now, you will likely get another defective relationship, if any.

Go to counseling, and live authentically in this relationship. (You might not have to divorce her because she might divorce you.) But whether or not you ultimately divorce, you will be in a better position with kids and with any future relationships by having accepted your own ownership for going along and doing something different.

It will take practice setting boundaries and being assertive.

Why didn't you answer your phone? Answer: I was at the movie/in class... It isn't allowed. You should have called the ambulance if it was a true emergency.

See a non-LDS therapist (yourself) who is qualified treating co-dependency. They will help you understand how to methodically get your life back. That might include separation and divorce. What is more frightening? Living the remainder of your life like you have been? Or stepping into the unknown, which includes freedom and choices? You can do this.

Anon OP

You sound very rational. You also sound balanced and fair. My two cents is this:

I think you should really - really - level with your wife. Be 100% honest with her about your feelings - ALL the feelings you've expressed her. You can do this verbally or in a letter. The key is to express all your feelings with perfect clarity while also making it clear you're doing so in order to try to *preserve your marriage* and to create more closeness between you both. That is, you make it clear from the outset you're not just going off, or criticizing - you're trying to dramatically improve your marriage.

If she freaks out while you're trying to express yourself, or shuts you down, refuses to hear it, and she doesn't soften up in the next, say, three days - you at least then know she's probably never going to change, and you at least gave her a chance.

But she might be so taken aback with your confession that she begins taking measures she's never taken before. That might be provoked by fear of losing you - but then, so be it.

The second thing is to let her know that you'll help her if she chooses to make those big changes, and you want to make them together.

The third thing is that you need to make sure she understands that if big changes are not made pronto, you're done. This can be made clear with words like this, "I am not happy in our marriage. I want that to change, and fast. I want to enjoy my life - every day, every moment - and I want to do that with you. So I want to explain to you what changes I want to see in our marriage". And you can throw in along the way, "if those are changes you do not wish to make, I can respect that. But then, I will need to make my own changes, including creating a life that I truly enjoy". If she says, "what - are you talking about divorce?", simply say, "of course".

Boom. Just do it. You have nothing to lose. Stand up for yourself.

AND, seriously, if she won't make those changes - get out. Life is too short to spend it being controlled by miserable, hypochondriac narcissists. A close relative of mine spent thirty years in a relationship much like yours. Counseling didn't work, all the pleading didn't work - nothing worked. The lady was a nightmare. Finally, one day, he just said, "I've had enough". It was big leap for him, and scary - but it has turned out to be the best decision he's ever made. He loves every minute of life now, is achieving goals like never before, and has found lots of great companionship (including romantic companionship). He's never been happier.

Good luck.

tcrbachman@gmail.com

Again, thank all of you for your kind and thoughtful comments and advice.

I have been giving the situation a great deal of thought, looking at it through the eyes of those who have posted here. First, it looks to me like I am with a woman who has learned to manipulate others to get her needs satisfied. Some of this comes from what I believe is her insecurity. She can barely read a paragraph and explain what it said. Her skills are limited to what she learned as a child/teen/young adult. Learning new skills or tasks scares the daylights out of her, mostly because of her lack of confidence due to her reading level.

So, rather than pull her own weight, she to paraphrase - 'relies on the kindness of others' through mental manipulation and application of guilt, using aches, pains, sickness and so on to elicit guilt for not rushing to take care of her or to simply bask in the attention, if given. She appears to walk a very fine line between being reasonable enough in her life to tolerate and manipulation of everyone around her, especially me.

Now, based on this rather harsh assessment, I turn inward. I am here and remain in this subservient position because, as a friend once stated, you have to choose to stay with the devil you know, or take the leap and deal with the devil you don't know. Obviously, to this point,nit has been stay, although there have been a few times when I was 'that close' to walking.

Why didn't I walk? It isn't easy to self-diagnose with accuracy, but I believe I don't trust myself to make a correct decision. As I stated in the OP, I grew up as a lesser member of a ward that had superstars, thus defining the difference between 'good member' and 'member to be looked down on and criticized at every opportunity' to a much greater degree than your average Ward. (By superstar, I mean the absolute apex of mormon royalty outside of GA'dom.)

I grew my esteem in that environment of basically being completely unable to rise to a level of respect within the ward. I did the Eagle thing in Boy Scouts. No help. I applied and was accepted to BYU thinking that would help. Nah. At BYU it was worse, because I transferred as a soph. and wasn't an RM. Again, a way lesser mormon.

Growing up, I listened to advice from people who I trusted, but in reality didn't give a rats ass about me and the advice generally sucked as I look at it in retrospect, so my career goals were pooh-poohed as 'the wrong choice'. I followed the advice because, well, I was a lesser mormon, therefore a lesser person and clearly I was not capable of making those decisions-others would make better choices for me.

So, as a single person dating, I dated below myself, because well, you know by now. Ultimately, I married below myself...and here I am some 25 years later realizing that I am on the downward arc of my life span, living a life that isn't my own. It isn't awful, I have read many stories about marriages and lives that are much worse than mine, but I really feel like I cut my own legs off at the knees, trying to please others.

What I need most is to feel like I am capable of starting over and doing so with a new set of tools and a new set of eyes. If I can do so without being heaped upon with guilt about abandoning a 'helpless' woman. I believe I would take the risk. I know that I will financially face a severe ass-kicking and will merge with little to work with.

Tal's advice about laying it on the line has been done, things improved, for a short while, then the old routine was reinstated. I believe at this point it is face harsh conditions while trying to restructure the marriage to resemble equality or to pack it up and find another campfire.

Stay tune for another episode. I will check in if things change.

Thanks again all! This truly is the only place I feel I can describe the situation and have it understood due to the mormon spin on it.

Anon (OP) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> She
> appears to walk a very fine line between being
> reasonable enough in her life to tolerate and
> manipulation of everyone around her, especially
> me.
>

She isn't walking a fine line, it only looks that way to you because you are not skilled in the black arts that she is. Her skill set comes naturally to her, she is probably a genius at it. Never try to take her on at it, you'll get crushed.

Her goal appears to be to keep you at her level. Her fear is you'll become something much greater than her, and suddenly want out of the suffocating marriage.

Now you see it for what it is, her prophecy is realistically about to come true.

Your relationship difficulties are not Mormon specific, the LDS themes are used to manipulate you, but you are not the first, or the last, person in a marriage to suddenly start seeing the reality of your "relationship". This happens inside and outside of Mo-ism. You just have a Mormon theme to how she manipulates you and those around her. If you were a JW, or a Southern Baptist, the relationship would look pretty similar.

See a divorce lawyer and get all the info you need about getting yourself free - just in case you have to.
A spouse with the personality you describe could make your life hell if you are unprepared.

After finding out what your legal options are, talk to your wife about making some changes in the relationship.

The best option would be some compromises that let both of you enjoy your lives, now that the kids are grown.
But if this is not possible, you are free to decide what you want to do next.

Anon OP

I have one little concern.

You say that you've been upfront about your feelings with your wife, and that that caused temporary improvement, but then she reverted back. What I want to know is if you made it crystal clear to her that *if changes were not forthcoming, you were done*.

I say this because telling a partner that (A) you feel a certain way is one thing; but (B) telling a partner, "I am going to leave if *this*, *this*, and *that* do not change, and change permanently, asap", is a much different thing.

Why is that an important thing? It's important because when you do (B), what you are doing is putting the ball in *her* court to decide *whether you stay or leave*. Does that make sense? Telling someone how you feel is just...telling them how you feel. But telling that if they do X, Y will happen; and if they do *not X*, Z will happen, is presenting them with a clear scenario in which *they* choose the outcome. Approaching it in this way, I think, will go a long way for you psychologically, in that this will no longer be a situation in which you (unconsciously) assume the entire responsibility and burden and choice for what it is about to occur. No - lay out the two possible futures for your wife, and let *her* decide. Is she going to learn how to be a responsible adult, or is she going to spend the rest of her life doing the "helpless narcissist" thing? She can do either; it's just that you make it clear that for her to choose the latter, she is choosing *it* over *you*.

That is completely fair. Moreover, Anon OP, in unwittingly continuing to assume the entirety of this choice yourself, you are still enabling her helplessness schtick. But if you lay out her options for her, *you are respecting her autonomy*. You are showing that you expect her to step up and make a decision on her own. And you are being completely clear with her about the consequences of that choice. You are doing her a favour by doing that.

So in short: an expression of your feelings does not count. An expression of your feelings *with an explanation of what WILL occur if she chooses not to do A, B, and C* DOES count.

And this has a benefit for you, too - you don't have to spend the rest of your life with lingering (if misguided) guilt about "abandoning" someone. No - present the case as I have suggested, and you spend the rest of your life thinking, "my ex-wife chose clinical narcissism and passive-aggressive manipulation over me". Which will be true.

Lastly, your concern about not being able to choose wisely is understandable; but it is still misguided. With your wisdom and renewed strength, you will strike out and begin meeting new people. You will be casual, friendly, open - but also well-paced. Non-Mormonism is not Mormonism, obviously, where everything's a big rush toward marriage. You can date, get involved with new activities, meet new people, and begin building an awesome life (with you becoming more awesome yourself); and when you have that momentum going, and you meet someone who is stable and positive and supportive, you can begin to take steps toward you two sharing your lives. If it stops working, you end it. If it keeps working, you cherish it and keep it going. It's simple.

Lastly lastly - I honestly would suggest trying to forget about the sting of a low-ranking past. Just forget it. We're here now. You're not a Mormon anymore, and you're not the same person anymore. Just...set new goals, hire a weightlifting trainer and start hitting the gym three times a week (it makes a huge difference in confidence), buy a few new well-fitting, flattering duds, blow the old stuff up, fire the energy vampires from your life, let your WIFE choose whether she loves you more than her own weird dysfunction, take up new challenges (mountain biking, university class, whatever), and start kicking ass YOUR way. Once I (albeit sorrowfully) ended my marriage, I did this kind of thing, and it really worked. At the age of forty, I was playing the equivalent of Division II rugby against university students half my age - and destroying them. It was a lot of fun, and I made tons of new buddies. I began to date, and in the end, that worked out, too.

The Hindus worship three main gods: Shiva the Destroyer, Brahma the Creator, and Vishnu, the Preserver. Be all three: destroy the bad in your life, create new sources of joy and meaning in your life, and then preserve them, while constantly keeping the cycle going. We only have one life to live - what else are we supposed to do? Spend the next thirty years in frustration and misery?

No.

Just go do it, Anon OP. Lay it out for your wife - let her choose - and go boldly forth from there. I'm not saying it'll always be easy, but that's part of why you should do it.

Thus saith Dr. Love



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2015 04:09PM by Tal Bachman.

Ultimatums rarely go well.

I agree with LM, if that is how he feels and he wants to give it another chance, it would be better done with a therapist to give that kind of message. they'd also do it in a more thoughtful manner.

In addition, the ultimatum only has power if you really mean it, not if it is being used to manipulate someone. The best relationship negotiations often come when a person is emotionally done with the relationship, and so they are not now negotiating from a position of weakness. It sounds like the OP is not quite there yet, and a therapist/counselor might help clarify his thoughts and feelings for him.

Tal:

Changeovers can be detailed and complex.

Things are being done as quickly as is possible.

tevai

I was in a similar situation.

27 years married to the same woman, active (pretty much), sealed, 2 BIC ungrateful children, Finally reached the point of attempting SUICIDE, requiring hospitalization, medication, psychotherapy, culimating in a SECOND SUICIDE ATTEMPT despite medications, suffered for years without sex in a, all in an attempt to placate a domineering, bitchy, fat, controlling, emotionally and physically absive TBM wife.

Does my bitterness show? LOL

No seriously, it took all the strength I had and the approaching death of my father, with whom I was very close, to decide that it was literally a life or death matter. Not only the death of my body, but the death of my mind and soul.

My ex-wife's mantra was 'Well, I can only hope that in the Resurrection he'll be healed and be restored to me...' to my face, no doubt.

DON'T PUT YOURSELF THROUGH WHAT I WENT THROUGH!

It will take all your courage and strength to leave the situation, but it literally becomes a matter of survival for your body and soul and mind to GET OUT. At least it was for me.

Now, I am happily married, a committed Orthodox Christian, I visit the sick and dying in the hospital, support widows and orphans, and have a happy and fulfilling life of spirituality and genuine Christian service and love - with my wife and others. I am 90% medication free, no longer symptomatic, titrating off the final medication (it was plural noun back them), with a loving, wonderful support system. For me, getting out and getting my life back has been nothing short of miraculous.


You CAN escape. It IS possible. For me, the truism really became: "And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith." 1 John 5:4 - decide what you have faith in - for me, it was first in MYSELF and my ability to decide what I was going to become, then in a real God, not the imaginary gods of Mormonism.

I honestly don't believe that you will ever become whole - with genuine emotional, spiritual, and mental health - in a terribly bad, crippling marriage, and committed even in the least manner, to Mormonism.

Just my $.02

Wow! Thanks for sharing that!

That's worth more than 2 cents.

Dude, get on the first train moving and don't look back. She hasn't changed in 25 years and neither have you...that is the stone-cold reality. You'll die a miserable wretch trying to make this person happy.

Life is a wonderful thing my friend and as was stated in another thread today, hours are like diamonds, don't waste them away.

All relationships have a shelf life. Never forget that.

Get out, set some goals for yourself, take some names, kick some ass, start being super selfish and enjoy your last years. This isn't a dress rehearsal mate...you're nearing the end of Act II. Make Act III all about you and your children and grandchildren.