"Are ALL cults bad?" that's what my tbm sister asked me when I told her she should look at howcultswork.com. She didn't care if Tscc is a cult or not. Wouldn't affect her testimony either way.

OKay....

Cults are bad. People should know that. They manipulate people and they LIE.

my brother said that he "doesn't have a problem" with gay people. but "gay sex is morally wrong." He's a jack mo.

fuck em. they won't listen to anything i say. Its pointless.

do you debate your tbm family or try to avoid all religious conversations?

I tryto avoid religious conversations for the most part so long as they don't start them

But I'm available if anyone shows an interest. Of course the TBMs don't.

The trouble with mormon thought control is what you pointed out. They only think cults are bad if it's some other cult. They only think manipulation and harassment art bad if someone else is doing it. They only abhor lying, mismangaging funds, and dictatorships unrelated to the mormon church.

Debating religion or politics with my family would be tooooo frustrating for all of us.

I'm happy living my life "my way". I suspect they are waiting for me to "need" their religion. It will never happen.

K

It took me forever to get here, though. I never brought it up, and like bona dea, I used to engage if they started religious conversations. For me, that only led to tsuris. So even if they start them now, I avoid, avoid, avoid!

There are *so* many other things to talk about, but if your life is imbued with religion, sometimes that's all you want to discuss, especially to someone who doesn't believe like you do. I understand people worrying about my soul, and I appreciate their concern, but it always ends up going so much further than that. These aren't really conversations anyway; IOW, no one really cares about what I think or why I think it. They just want to tell me why I'm damned. It gets old.

I certainly don't avoid religious conversation, but I never bring up the topic. Kolobians and christians alike are bound to bring it up all by themselves.

Once they do bring it up I allow them to begin making unfalsifiable claims they could never back up, then I ask them what evidence they can provide to back up their claims.

Once we wade through all the nonsense reasons they come up with, kolobians' last line of defense is their "testimony from the holy spirit."

This is where it gets really good. I remind them that when Adam left the garden he built an altar and prayed to his god for guidance. Then I ask, "Who answered his prayer?"

Endowed Kolobians know it was Lucifer, though it's really never occured to them before, and they refuse to answer because they think they'll be divulging sacred secrets. It always shakes them up, though.

Unendowed Kolobians guess that it was god, then I inform them about the temple's version of things. What's great about it is that unendowed members always (always) say that I'm lying, that Lucifer can't answer prayers. I feel like that's a small seed I'm planting that will grow and grow until they finally go to the temple for this first time and say "oh, I guess Lucifer does answer prayers."

How can prayer, then, be a reliable source of truth?

(that's where my conversations with Kolobians always end)

Wish I could be there to hear those conversations. Love it.

I LOVE IT, chulotc!!
I'm going to incorporate "Kolobians" into my many conversations with TBMs (probably only when they call me a "persecutor" or "anti-Mormon" or a "basher/hater". When I'm finished with them that's all they have left in their sparse arsenal--resorting to name-calling).

I would LOVE to have LDS oriented conversations with family. I am pretty good at mixing LDS scripture, words of so-called "Modern" Apostles and Prophets and a healthy dose of logic and reason in refuting most LDS related topics, and do it all without rancor or upset on my part. (Wasn't always that way!)

The very FEW occasions when I've engaged family members (when THEY start it) have not turned out well--for them (all TBM). I think it pisses them off that I remain cool and calm in the midst of a lively "Kolobian" conversation and so, refuse to discuss it.

At family get-togethers we still manage to have a rousing good time, laughing and joking and acting silly, so it really hasn't affected our relationship--on the surface at least. For me it still remains, to a minor degree, an "Elephant-in-the-room" deal. For them?--dunno...prolly not. When they're ready, I'll be there to "plant a few seeds"--anti-Kolobian seeds!

I find it's hard to debate with my TBM family members. They tend to defend their church leaders very vigorously, and when I point out undeniable inconsistencies and harmful effects on members, they just respond with, "Well, nobody's perfect." Well, then, who's to say the church doesn't operate on man-made doctrines as a result of imperfect leadership? The answer I often get is, "We know it hasn't been tainted because our prophets have been ordained by God himself!"

The minute people bring out the "because God says so" card, there really isn't much room for debate. It gives their leaders a blank check to do whatever they want, even if members themselves acknowledge that everyone makes mistakes. My viewpoint has zero legitimacy because it isn't sanctioned by their god, and any criticism I make is often interpreted as a direct attack on them.

I don't seek out debates, but they tend to rope me into them because they still don't understand why I can't just get with the program already. It's unfortunate, because church is such a massive part of their lives, and they don't have much else to talk about aside from work or politics.

Hi, faboo.

I havn't had the occasion to discuss the "God says so" defense
with TBM family but it often comes up in the occasional conversation with other TBMs. When they use the line ""We know it hasn't been tainted because our prophets have been ordained by God himself!", (or similar) this MAY help:

I would respond by pointing out the times those "ordained" have made miscues, as in the Mark Hoffman case, Joseph's obvious lies and his "Quakers on the moon" hokum, and B.Young's "death-on-the-spot" for racially mixed-marriage philosophy, etc., etc.

They'll usally respond with something like "Well, they ARE men, after all, and are subject to mistakes.", to which I might respond, "How do you tell the difference between when they are speaking "for God" and when they're just giving out their personal opinions, and if it's as hard for you to tell the difference as it was for me, then you can't be absolutely certain they ALWAYS speak for God, can you, and if
you can't be certain, why follow them? You might be just as well off listening to Joel Osteen or Pat Robertson--or better yet, your OWN intuition and brain. Your JUST as smart and JUST as "inspired" as ANY of those guys and have as much right to God's direction as they--or that they CLAIM to have."

This is the point at which they usually switch gears and start with personal attacks on you and your "lack of faith" or "why are you attacking my beliefs"?, etc.--which is EASY to respond to, and the conversation usually ends because they've run out of legit points. They may try to end it with, "It doesn't matter to me really, because I CHOOSE to follow them, in spite of all your logic and reason." I finish by saying "God bless you, then, as you go your way. Are we still friends? I hope so, even though we disagree. At least you now know why I choose NOT to follow them."

Try that approach next time--it MIGHT work...
It's nothing if not entertaining...

Seeds of doubt.

In the beginning stages of my trip out of Moism, I had, to that point, dismissed several "ANTI" points I had heard over the years prior, as being just that--anti or sour grapes remarks from delusional and misguided fools.

In the year prior to leaving, as I was just beginning to consider some of the "hard questions", my wife began her reading of three "Mark Hoffman" books and would comment on some point or other to which I would make some anal, dismissive or sarcastic response (she never hounded me). However, the question DID come to mind, albeit, fleetingly, "How is it possible for God's inspired leaders to be fooled by a 2 bit con man?", and promptly dismissed the thought, and, unknowingly placed it in some "place" with all the other negatives I'd heard
over the years.

However, as I got deeper into the exit process on totally unrelated LDS issues/topics, those "dismissed" anti subjects began to resurface, adding to my growing discomfort with my LDS beliefs, and ultimately contributed tremendously to my exit/resignation from Mormonism.

The point is, for me, at least, I never pass up an opportunity to "pay it forward" (ie., plant seeds) as long as I try to do it without causing anger or offence (TOUGH to do). I never look at my anti-Mormonism comments or discussions as "not doing any good" or "they don't care what I think", as reasons or excuses for not saying something. Ya just never know...

I know they feel the same about what I say.

There's no point, and it just hurts feelings. They know where to come if they find themselves looking for truth.

like my TBM BIL who had no problems with peep stones, helen mar kimball, and latter day animal sacrifice. I don't waste my time with him anymore.

Usually winds up with me traumatized after finding out some ridiculous thing I didn't know she believed. Like when I called to thank her for the $10 she sent me to buy food storage (!), and she said she doesn't believe in science.

I have a hard enough time respecting my mom without hearing that Kolob is at the center of the Milky Way galaxy or whatever. I'm all, "No, Mom, there's a supermassive black hole at the center of the galaxy."

Everything I say just bounces off like she's made of plastic, and we go around and around and I end up thinking she's an even bigger weirdo than I did going in. It's not worth it.

:-)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2011 02:04PM by munchybotaz.

but was happy to debate after they had come after me with all sorts of character attacks, false assumptions. When _they_ would come after me first, I let 'em have it. Even before I really discovered how deep the fraud and avarice are in Mo'ism, I would always defend myself with my own philosophy.

Once a few years ago my parents even took me on a trip to Europe so they could really come down on me about my "choices." I remember dad saying "well you should just be like Enos who had to pray for like 2 days to get answers." I simply said that that kind of devotion to a specific thing is likely to create a response to the person, regardless of the subject. That's just the human mind being its powerful self. He agreed and has shut up considerably since that trip. Since I was good at defending myself, their Mormon selective memory kicked in, and the 7-hour discussion that took place between Prague and Brussels completely evades their memory to this day.

After that, there were a few emails which I actually prefer. Emotions have a chance to stabilize before you communicate, you can do a little research, take your time. As expected, those emails got passed around the gossip mill, which was a bit of a breakthrough on my parents part. The fact that they were willing to distribute my absolute resistance and resentment of Mo'ism to other delicate ears was a sign they were getting used to the reality of it. A couple relatives contacted me and said I raised very good points in those emails and they agreed (jackmos basically).

I sometimes wonder if my remarks influenced any impressionable younger minds in the extended family. No one else I knew of was so vocal and candid, and then you add things like facebook and info can really go far.

But I don't recommend arguing, just a minimalist approach that diffuses the point/counterpoint method however one wishes.

Well, originally my mom and I would engage in discussion with them not knowing I was rapidly losing confidence in LDS claims.

Once we left though it turned into my RM bro challenging me and my others demanding answers. My RM bro was easily dispatched and the rest unanimously disappeared from the radar as if on cue.

None of them have spoken in almost two years, but my parents still answer the phone, but we never discuss religion except when someone is going on a mission.

I avoid, but they usually bring it up. I haven't figured out why they do that. Defense mechanism, perhaps?

Most of my experiences are similar to those mentioned above. My addition to the conversation is to make sure you let people know that you CHOSE to leave.... you didn't wander, fall away, prefer to sin, lazy, etc.

"I willingly left because I found out the church is not what it claims to be, and no, it's not a good place to raise a family."

when any little thing starts us fighting I always attack them by attacking the cult.

I called my mother a liar once. She asked me how she ever lied to me, and then I unloaded with every cult lie I could remember her teaching me. She said it was the enemies of the church that change cult history to make them look bad. I said it's all cult history, unadulterated (excuse the pun), and it's the cult that changes.I noted that the cult just changed the preamble to the BoM because of DNA evidence showing Native Americans have Asian DNA. My parents seemed to just shut down, like they were compartmentalizing what I was saying - filing it in some "too hard basket".

It's terrible how this cult has turned them into vegetables who can't think for themselves anymore.

and don't have any contact with most of them. Problem solved. My mother calls me a couple times a month just to check on me and I appreciate it. I laugh every time she tells me some faith promoting story that happened to someone we know and I know her well enough to know that she thinks it might just be the thing that will jolt my memory (of how I believed in the church), ya know, that belief that they just know is still down deep inside somewhere. So far, nothing has been a big enough jolt to get to the recesses of my brain where that belief must be hiding. Because I can't dig it out no matter how hard I try. Oh wait, I don't try, maybe that's why. But other than that, my mom says nothing about religion and we have pretty plesant conversations.

I have quit bringing up facts about the Mormon church to my TBM wife because it always leads to tears on her part. Church is a large part of her life and she is always doing good things for people...and she is happy...so I just leave it alone. Once, during a rather heated discussion, I told her that I was just trying to find out the truth about a lot of things regarding the LDS church. I asked her if she wanted to know the truth and she said, "No, I don't!!"

Well, I guess if someone doesn't want to know the truth, there just isn't much point in pursuing the discussion any farther.

My oldest son feels the same way I do about the LDS church. He made the classic statement once that: The truth is anti-mormon.

That pretty well sums it up.

I avoid. It's not worth the conflict.

If my TBM daughter starts talking mormonism, I just engage her, but don't debate her. It drives her brother NUTS--but I told him it is pointless to debate the issues. I never tell her I agree with anything she says, but just listen. Just like I do with other members of my family.

BUT I do find it interesting that my parents kept bringing up my inactivity. When I went inactive, I still believed and they knew I went inactive over what was going on in my life (and were rather shocked as I was the most devout in the family including them). As they pursued me going back to church, I told them more and more about what had transpired in my life and THEY LISTENED. Every now and then, my dad would bring up the idea of me going back and we'd have a more in depth discussion of what happened in my life. He would then tell me what had always bothered him about the church and issues his parents had with the mormons.

So--I never had to CONVINCE them I really didn't believe deep down. They knew I didn't.

I believe I had a different "coming out" than most people do as my family got to watch my life completely fall apart over my marriage and I had been the most devout of any of them--including most of my extended family. My life was a disaster and I was the one who "did it all right." So when I finally started discussing my nonbelief, they had had a front-row seat to WHY I might lose belief.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2011 03:11PM by cl2.