I've had to deal with stalkers, peeping toms, flashers and the like in real life.

I've had drunk men wait in front of my apartment, watch me walk in the door and then demand oral sex.

I've had men follow me home from the landromat and expose themselves.

I've had stalkers who knew when I left work who followed me home.

I've had peeping toms who would either watch me leave and come home every day and then leave notes describing what they would want me to do to them or vice versa.

I've had to put aluminium foil on my windows to prevent stalkers trying to watch me bathe or undress.

I've had men try and assault me late at night after clubbing walking back to my vehicle.

I've had flashers expose themselves or masturbate in their cars whilst driving.


But I have never had any problems with men like these in the ladies' room. These men are sick and have problems with impulse control. They aren't going to go the trouble of pretending to be trans just to watch women wash their hands, adjust their hair or clothing or perhaps put on lipstick or touch up their make-up...which is about all they would see while watching from a stall. It's a non-problem. It doesn't happen.


Why is this suddenly an issue now? Trans people have been around since the beginning of things. They are a tiny minority that has faced rejection by their families, homlessness, joblessness and acute discrmination in every phase of life. Many have to turn to sex work to survive. Women like Caitlyn Jenner are the exception and not the rule. Many people still don't understand transsexuality or gender identity and this makes trans people easy prey to hate and fear campaigns conducted by religious organisations.

Mormons have a long history of using perceived external threats to maintain internal control and both Mormons and evangelical Christians use fear as a motivation tactic. Having lost on marriage equality, they needed another issue that would inspire fear. The gay menace replaced the black menace. Now the trans menace is a new "threat" that must be guarded against.


You have already used a public restroom with a trans person. You just didn't know it. It would be unsafe for trans people to be forced to use the wrong restroom. There are already laws against lewd behaviour. If you are in a locker room with a trans person they are not different from you. Take some time to do some basic reasearch and study. Don't let your fear of the unknown be used as a tool to engender hate and destroy the lives of others who are no threat to you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2016 11:36PM by anybody.

Totally spot on, anybody...

Thank you for saying this SO well!!!

:)

This is basically along the lines of what I wanted to say earlier in the other thread, but was too afraid to because I'm trans, & I don't think people will believe what I have to say. So I thank you a million times over.

Sorry,look here instead

https://www.facebook.com/tncrowder21/posts/10100695106313698

The people freaking out about aren't listening to those who experience what is really happening to the victims and survivors of harassment, stalking, sexual abuse, sexual assault, and rape.

I'm not worried about sharing a bathroom with a trans woman.

I do, however, worry about walking dogs on the streets because of past harassment.

I worry about being groped again by a straight male 5th grader that that thinks its funny or ok to sexually assault a female school aid. In this same school, I have concerns about being slashed by another 5th grader of the same demographic.

I'm concerned that the semen thrower in our town has never been caught.

The least of my concerns is about a person born with a penis that identifies as a women is peeing in the stall next to me. Several posters that are educated about trans issues and are trans themselves are telling you the reality here. If you refuse to listen and understand, it's because you're wallowing in blind, willful ignorance with your hands clapped over your ears. It's not the the trans people we need to worry about, it's the predators that fit a common demographic that we're being misled from.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2016 12:03AM by Itzpapalotl.

Just today I felt compelled to respond to a very religious cousin's commentary on Facebook regarding the public restroom controversy. I was surprised to see my equally religious aunts "like" my comment. Here's what I posted...

It's my belief that people shouldn't be sending their little kids into public restrooms alone under any circumstances.
Same-sex pedophiles (who very often have no sexual interest in adults of either gender) would not be barred from entry under your solution nor by the current laws being debated in the public square—and these pedophiles are likely the biggest risk a child would face in those settings.

I have a strong suspicion that the transgender community has no more of a predilection towards sexual interest in children than the rest of society as a whole. I think people who view the transgender community as deviant (and I'm not even getting into the validity of that stance) do make the mistake of assuming one deviant (in their view) behavior begets another. I've not seen any compelling studies showing linkage between the transgender community and child molestation.

For many years, the homosexual community was unfairly painted with this same brush until study after study failed to find linkage to same-sex adult orientation (adult homosexuality) and child molestation. [See the link below to a UC Davis paper on this.]

Until someone can show me otherwise, I think fear mongers are doing to the transexual community what they did for decades to the homosexual community.

Frankly, I think this is a solution in search of a problem. And if you really want a solution, it's don't send your kid into a public restroom alone.

And, finally, my comments are NOT an attack on anyone's religious beliefs or stances on issues of morality...I've narrowed my comments to the specifics of whether there is statistical evidence that the transgender community poses a greater risk of sexual assault on children. I've yet to see it.

http://psc.dss.ucdavis.edu/.../HTML/facts_molestation.html

Here in Seattle, a man recently entered a women's locker room at a public pool twice claiming his gender identity was female. He began to disrobe in front of the women. His second visit coincided with a group of young girls who were changing for swim practice.

The women objected, but management could do nothing. Since the man declared his gender identity was actually that of a woman, it was perfectly legal for him to enter the women's changing room and disrobe. He was the only woman in the room with a fully functioning penis, and it was his desire to reveal it to all present. Every little girl in the changing room could have had her mom standing there beside her, but there is no legal recourse to stop this man from indulging himself in his desire to strip naked in front of these little girls. The new law allows him to do so with impunity. A single pervert has essentially rendered the common sense usage of a public pool something that many families will now choose to never again partake in. Perhaps some of you will consider these families to be bigots and transphobes.

I understand that we have had transgender people among us for decades now. And for the most part, they mingle among their chosen gender without disruption, because they are committed to an actual lifestyle that mimics the gender they've chosen. But now that we've carved out special rights, it has opened a door that infringes on the privacy rights of a huge segment of the society. Is there a compelling reason why families should be forced to surrender the timing of when they want their children to first see the fully naked body of the opposite gender?

I guess I'm asking if you're all really on board with public pools and gyms no longer being able to offer actual gender-specific privacy any longer. Do some of you feel that the rights of the less than one percent of the population outweigh the rights of women and girls who may wish to not be exposed to male genitalia and men watching them as they undress?

The root of the problem is not actually with most transgender people. It's simplistic to characterize push back against these laws as somehow victimizing them. The real problem is that 99% of sexual predators are fully functioning heterosexual men. And they will never actually consider themselves to be transgender until the moment they are caught exposing themselves or peeking at your daughter in the women's locker room. Now they've been provided with a law that gives them a get-out-of-jail-free card. The law now provides them with complete freedom to enter the women's locker room as often as they wish. If they are ever confronted, they just need to utter these simple words: "My gender identity is female."

Here are a few recent examples of abuses of these laws:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/wa-man-women-bathroom-test-transgender-ruling-article-1.2535150

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/15/a-sex-predators-sick-deception

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Man-Dressed-as-Woman-Arrested-for-Spying-Into-Mall-Bathroom-Stall-Police-Say-351232041.html

This man was observed lurking in and out of the women's bathroom. Ultimately, the only thing he did that was actionable was he filmed his escapades. If he had chosen to simply leave his camera at home, there was likely nothing illegal about what he did: http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2016/04/01/california-man-dressed-woman-busted-videoing-womens-bathroom/

I've had drunk gay females try and grope me or feel my breasts. I've had a straight male manager expose himself right in front of me in my office. Lewd behaviour is lewd behaviour. None of the cases you cite involved actual trans people and their is no evidence that trans people are more likely to be child molesters or rapists -- the vast majority of whom are cisgendered heterosexual men.

Use your common sense. Would it make sense for a trans man to use the ladies' room or locker room? What about a trans girl in high school who is already being bullied by mean boys who would have to face them again in the bathroom or locker room?

Trans people -- especially trans women of colour -- have death and violence rates many times higher than the general population.

This is a more typical incident: a young trans woman was attacked by a group of black girls at a Mcdonald's in Maryland just for using the restroom.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beating_of_Chrissy_Lee_Polis

The problem with these laws is that under the guise of showing compassion for an infinitesimal small segment of our society, they've opened the door for government-sanctioned lewd behavior.

The man who decided to undress in front of young girls changing for their swim team did nothing illegal, and any attempt to remove him would have been a violation of his rights. Moms who were outraged that a full grown man was undressing in front of their daughters could have been prosecuted for expelling him from the women's locker room. And you're claiming this is common sense?

You cannot legislate a perfect life for everyone in our society. Transgender individuals face many more challenges than most of us. But so do millions of other members of our society that face other types of disabilities and challenges. We can try to accommodate as many people as possible, but when your solution for accommodation opens the door for legalizing lewd behavior, it's insanity to promote is as "common sense."

I think Tall Man Short Hair raises a very good point that I haven't seen adequately addressed by anyone outside anecdote.

I wouldn't want my daughter to see a grown man undressing in a locker room simply because he believes he's a woman despite the very obvious fact that he was born with a penis.

This thing is not as black & white as some posters try to argue it is. It just isn't...

I think most posters arguing against these laws are trying to point out that these issues are very much NOT black and white. These laws on the other hand, are black and white and ignore a great deal of the complexity involved.

Just look at your post, it is black and white, "he believes he's a woman despite the very obvious fact that he was born with a penis."

According to your post, if you have a penis, you're a man... No dealing with genetic disorders, Sexual dimorphism, or other very real reasons why someone with a penis might actually be a woman. These people don't "believe" they are the wrong gender, there is very real science about it. It's not just something they came up with as a whim. Would you say someone "believes" they are gay? Do you "believe" you are male? These are innate qualities that define us, they are not chosen at a whim.

These are complex issues that need time and discussion to figure out. These laws are literally being put in place overnight. No discussion about what impact they might have, no way given for law enforcement to actually enforce the laws. Just quick knee-jerk reactions to fear based politics. They are not laws helping anyone, they are harming a minority group that isn't being given a say in how this impacts them.

Yes, you might not want your young girls to see what appears to be a naked male in a locker-room, but have you even asked how this has been being handled up to now? Have you asked if these laws are in response to an actual problem (i.e. has a transgender person actually caused a problem in a bathroom/locker-room? Answer: No). Has there been any real, helpful discussion about how to make things work in a free, supposedly equal society? Nope, lets just make the minority out to be villains AGAIN, because that's what these laws are doing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2016 04:39PM by Finally Free!.

The science hasn't done anything other than demonstrate that some people are genuinely convinced that they are a different gender than what they actually are.

How does that translate into they actually are not the gender they very clearly are?

I own the fact that I don't get it, despite how open-minded I am, but facts are facts.

A man is born with a penis, has a penis, but genuinely believes they are a woman: I don't want that dude getting naked in front of my daughter.

The other points you tried to make are strawmen so no apology for not addressing them...

It sounds like you've decided to stick with black and white thinking on this opposed to seeing the complexity of the issue (the very thing you were against). Penis means male... You don't get much more black and white than that.

How do you deal with those who've lost their genitalia in an accident? Do they just "believe" they are the gender they were? But, I guess that's another strawman, go ahead and feel free to ignore it.

I'm not sure how to debate this because you've dismissed actual science and my examples as attempts to make strawmen, opposed to things that actually do happen which demonstrates the complexity with this that needs to be dealt with.

I have to say, I'm disappointed. I usually look to your posts as well researched and thought out and more open minded.

Like I said, I own that I don't get it, and I'm open to having my mind changed, but someone with a penis shouldn't disrobe in a locker room filled with girls (especially if my daughter is in there.)

Sorry to disappoint. This is just one of those things that I haven't really been able to wrap my head around.

I don't have any kind of problem with people changing their gender; it's none of my business. More power to them. I certainly wouldn't support any legislation that would tell them they can't.

I'm curious why we continue to encourage people to change reality to conform to what seems to me to be a delusion in the minds.

I'm curious, do you feel the same way about sexual attraction? Are homosexuals having "a delusion in the minds"? If I remember right you have been supportive of that (maybe I'm remembering incorrectly), even though, men are sexually built to be with women and visa versa. Are you for conversion therapy to help them with their delusions? Really, I'm asking.

I might be coming across as argumentative, but I'm just trying to explain the other side of this and show that it's not a simple matter with easy solutions, and that maybe it's not a good thing to write off a minority group.

Transgender people aren't delusional, which is what you seem to be insinuating. The brain is the most important sexual organ in the body and there are medical, science based reasons why what's in the brain doesn't match the physical characteristics, and you seem to be saying people who faces these issues are delusional.

Take for example (feel free to write this off as a strawman) medical cases where children are born with both sets of genitalia. For a long time, doctors had parents make a choice of which way to go, long before the child could make that determination themselves depending on what their brain told them. Often parents got it wrong and the child in question now has to face living a life where their brain doesn't match their physical body or doing something about it... But you seem to think that's delusional.

Having a penis doesn't make you male. If you were to lose it in an accident, you don't suddenly stop being male. (I know, I know, strawmen everywhere. Sorry, I can't help pointing out real cases where it's not black and white.)

So, I don't believe homosexuals are experiencing a delusion of the mind, simply because the reality is that a gay man is actually physically attracted to other men. It's real.

The delusion would be if they were physically attracted to other men, but believed they were straight because their church told them there's no such thing as gay.

If I happened to born as I was (a man) but believed I was really a woman, I would have a quick reality check when I looked in the mirror and saw that I was in fact not a woman.

Clearly that would be devastating, because in my mind I would believe I was a woman, but in reality I can see that I'm not.

I think someone who believes in their mind that they are a different gender than what they are is more closely linked to a girl looking in the mirror and seeing she's fat when in reality she's too skinny, and continues to starve herself because she believes in her mind she's fat.

Homosexuality is objectively real, it's not a delusion, and there's nothing about the evolution of our species that requires a man to only be attracted to a woman simply because that's how humans procreate.

But gender as a word loses all meaning unless we can come to an agreement on what gender actually means, and right or wrong the way humans have always defined gender is based on physical anatomy.

To your other point, if a man somehow loses his penis does that make him a man still? The answer is yes, and I'll explain why in my next question:

If Caitlyn Jenner, after all her surgeries, were to be cloned: What would come out of the test tube? A male or a female?

"Clearly that would be devastating, because in my mind I would believe I was a woman, but in reality I can see that I'm not."

Now, if only you could see how devastating that is for the people who have to deal with it, rather than dismissing that devastation as delusional.

"If Caitlyn Jenner, after all her surgeries, were to be cloned: What would come out of the test tube? A male or a female?"

Physically? male, Mentally? probably Female, I don't know all the medical facts around her case, and honestly, it's none of my business. Did you know that in the case of identical twins, one may be gay and the other not. They are essentially clones, yet have different sexual attraction. Again, it's interesting that you don't call that delusional, but do with transgender people.

I find it very interesting that you can see and even recognize the devastation that these people go through and seemingly them delusional. Couldn't you use the exact same argument against gay people? They have penises, they "should" be attracted to women, they can look in the mirror and see that their parts line up with the opposite sex, and so on and so on. Yet you recognize that homosexual brain is what drives attraction. It also drives gender identity.

You didn't answer my cases about children born with both genitals. Which are they? They have both. When they look in the mirror, how do they simply decide? What if their parents decided for them incorrectly? This does happen. There are medical cases. There are other medical reason why transgender people exist, it's not just delusion.

"But gender as a word loses all meaning unless we can come to an agreement on what gender actually means"

People have used the similar arguments regarding homosexuality and marriage equality ("marriage loses all meaning if men can marry men!" and the like). It is a complex thing we do need better definitions and more education, not laws that vilify minorities.

These laws and black and white thinking isn't helping anyone.

Well like I said, I don't have a problem with people changing genders. I have a problem with loose penises in girls' locker rooms :)

And has that been such a problem up to now that we need to have laws with a very large impact to a minority group? To my knowledge it hasn't been an issue until politicians made laws based on fear and ignorance.

You aren't OK with an exposed male near your girls, I can understand that... It's awkward and might cause a difficult conversation.

Are you OK with a muscular, bearded transgender man being forced to use a locker room with your girls? That's what these laws require. It's not a straw man when it's actually happening.

Look up the images of very masculine transgender men in women's bathrooms who are there by law ("We Just need to pee" for your google search). They are real people who are just trying to live their lives, but now simple daily actions are far more complicated and embarrassing than they should be.

Should we just ban transgender people from all bathrooms and locker rooms everywhere? It's not as simple as you or these laws are making things out to be. It's not black and white. These laws are oversimplifying a very complex issue.

You said, "I own the fact that I don't get it, despite how open-minded I am, but facts are facts."

You aren't using all the facts. Calling a group delusional that you admit to not understand does not sound "open-minded". It sounds like you are basing your opinions on ignorance and fear. How many times has the argument against gay marriage been, "I don't want to have a potentially awkward conversation with my children". That's essentially the argument you're making here.

Which is why I'm disappointed. On other topics, say about atheism and religious beliefs, you promote education and learning about the topics your talking about to people who post things out of ignorance. Yet here, you're perfectly happy labeling a minority as delusional. Which is terribly sad as we have transgender people who post here and may read what you've written, and have to deal with the invalidation of being told that they are delusional on a board that supposed to be supportive.

I don't understand where the idea comes from that trans people with penises are going to start undressing in front of little girls. HAS THIS EVER BEEN A PROBLEM???? If it's such a problem that we need to hastily enact laws against it, then let me know of the many times you've dealt with trans people disrobing in front of you children.

Trans people have to oee just like the rest of us. Maybe they should find a nice alley. Geesh.

Make that pee.

I too live in Washington state and agree with 'Tall Man, Short Hair ( )'.

The way the policy is written here, anyone can use any restroom or dressing room they want.

They is nothing to stop the hormone infused high school boy's football team from using the girl dressing room when ever they like.

There has to be some boundaries.

The State's human rights commission has said having a gender neutral restroom would subject the users to harassment.

Again, like Tall Man, Short Hair() said, these new rules/laws just opens the doors for perverts to do anything they want and then really give the transgender a bad name and greater backlash.

"Again, like Tall Man, Short Hair() said, these new rules/laws just opens the doors for perverts to do anything they want and then really give the transgender a bad name and greater backlash."

How exactly are these new laws protecting anyone? For years, this hasn't been a problem. There are zero cases of a transgender person attacking anyone in a bathroom. These are laws created out of fear and ignorance. They are laws creating problems. If a pervert wants to do something in a bathroom, these laws aren't going to stop them.

There are already laws against lewd behavior (regardless of whether or not the perpetrator is in a bathroom), there are laws against rape and harming a child. These new bathroom laws do not add anything to the existing laws except to make life incredibly uncomfortable for a minority group that just wants to make the same use of a bathroom that everyone does. They want to get in, take care of their business and get out, just like everyone else.

Let's say that you go into the bathroom and see someone who is dressed and has all the appearance of being of the opposite gender for the bathroom you are in. They are transgender and are forced by law to use this bathroom. When they explain this, do you say, "Oh, I see that you are obeying the law, it's working!" or do you, go get a manager, call the cops, etc calling the person, who is obeying this horrible law, a pervert when they were just trying to make use of the facilities the only lawful way they could.

There are many reasons why people are transgender. I have yet to hear a single one say that they have taken such dramatic steps to change everything about their life because they wanted to be a pervert in a bathroom.

Please educate yourselves before giving into fear based politics.

Well, okay. But the church still isn't true.

It was a fraud from the beginning
It's a scam now and ever shall be
Fraud without end
Amen, Amen

The problem is that these issues go beyond just bathrooms. In some areas nudity is considered ok within a locker room, shower area, sauna, spa, etc... To have a person who feels like a woman but looks like a man enter those areas is understandably troublesome.

This is especially a problem for adults who try to teach their children that a man in a woman's bathroom is a danger but cant distinguish between what a man who feels like a man and a man who feels like a woman is. How could a child know if they are really in danger or not?

It bothers me that people are in such a rush that they throw out the word bigot at the drop of a hat these days. What was considered normal 5 years ago is now considered bigotry. That doesnt seem right. Just because people disagree with you doesnt mean that they are bigots.

I think the best way to deal with the bathroom issue is not to try to classify people. Instead we need better bathrooms. The bathrooms in America were built with the pre-supposition that only 1 gender would enter them. If that is no longer the pre-supposition then the bathrooms should be redesigned. The stalls should actually have privacy. The walls and doors should go from the ceiling to the floors. There shouldnt be gaps in them either. No matter what you think about it people just want their privacy and security. That is why having stalls that are actually private will eliminate those problems. That way everything that happens outside the stall has nothing to do with what happens in it. I think that businesses were just trying to save money by building cheap stalls that really only meet the bare minimum of what is needed. By making them actually private it would end this debate and give everyone the privacy they want.

Good points.

Another question: I've been told that some countries (I'm thinking in Europe) don't consider nudity of either sex particularly offensive. What is this like in those countries? I don't know about bathrooms, but I've heard that the rape rate is very low in, say, nude beaches.

There are totally serious problems on both sides out there. I just sometimes wonder how much our fear of the problem increases the problem.

Hear hear!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2016 12:58AM by dogeatdog.

I would rather see my 8 year old granddaughter in the same bathroom with Caitlyn Jenner or Laverne Cox than I would to see my 12 year old grandson in the same bathroom with the Rev. Ted Haggard or the former U.S. Senator Larry Craig. What’s that you say…but, hey, their plumbing matches their birth certificates and that’s the important thing, right? No, no, apparently that isn’t the important thing.

Has there ever been an instance of a transgender person being arrested for lewdness in a public restroom? U.S. Senators sure, but transgender folks, no, I’ve never heard of it happening.

The issue of where transgender folks will be allowed to pee seems like much ado about nothing. It’s just a smoke screen used by the “religious freedom” folks to camouflage their bigotry. What these folks would really like to see is the Bible becoming the supreme law of the land. They would be tickled pink to see a Christian version of Sharia Law on our shores.

Thanks, but no thanks.

flyfish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It’s just a smoke screen used by the
> “religious freedom” folks to camouflage their
> bigotry. What these folks would really like to see
> is the Bible becoming the supreme law of the land.
> They would be tickled pink to see a Christian
> version of Sharia Law on our shores.
>
> Thanks, but no thanks.

What will be next? Will these religious dolts also insist that men be prevented from displaying their genitals to little girls on playgrounds as well?

Help us to become as enlightened as you, so we may prevent these religious zealots from ruining everything we hold as right and just.

I tend to agree with leftfield that this is a solution in search of a problem.

You are so right on this I was thinking along the same lines driving home.

I was thinking how if my wife had run into a Trans in the ladies room she would probably strike up a conversation.

I can hear it all now

"hey sweetie I just love your nails"
"Your hair looks great did it take you long to do?"

ECT....

And these folks just want to blend in and feel normal.

A trans woman would not feel safe or comfortable in the mens room. And we would feel weird seeing them there.

We don't care if a trans man uses the mens room we might not ever notice. And I have had experience when a regular woman has used the mens room just because the ladies has a line.

I am more concerned about the regular perverts that just seem to stay at the urinal way too long.

never let you young men under the age of 14 use the public restroom alone. Send him in with a bother or friend or you go in and wait. If you are a woman nobody cares if you stand inside near the door.

If you do encounter weirdness or a pervert in the rest room call over someone that works there or get security.

People are taking this way too far! What is next security posted at the rest rooms....Or worse all the rest rooms are locked and a matron has the key....and we need to find her.