Both of us BIC. I never believed any of it, but followed along with it all because it was my culture, my family, my way of life.

40 years later, and 20 years into marriage, with 4 wonderful kids, I just want out.

My wife is a mess. Multiple psychological and personality disorders keeps her in bed all day long. Mostly brought on by the church and her undying belief in a psychotic world of an all-knowing punishing God who watches everything you do, and Jesus is always in the room spying on you, and no matter what you do you'll never be good enough.... etc.

Even though I have no relationship with my wife, as she is mentally, physcially, sexually, and emotioinally vapid and removed herself from the world around her, I can't leave. I have 4 children that I refuse to abandon.

So what do the rest of you do? Those who have left, but have a spouse still in the church, and kids?

I'd like a relationship with an adult OUTSIDE the church, but how do you go about finding and meeting people, while your spouse is still ALL-IN TBM?

I am a nevermo, so forgive me if this is a stupid question. Is you distancing yourself and as much as possible, your children, from the lds church impossible? If it is impossible to distance everyone physically, can you work to open your kids' minds and help them to think critically in all areas of their life?

Teaching your kids to think critically is such a worthy endeavor that it may be a life-saver for you as well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2016 01:11PM by bordergirl.

Thanks for the advice.

My wife is strange in that she's 100% believer, but stays home in bed all the time, so doesn't take kids to church. I already told my 18yo son that I don't want him to go on a mission unless he really believes it and really wants to go. Basically, I gave him the opt-out option that my parents never gave me. Surprise, surprise... he jumped all over that one and has never been to church again, and is going to the "U" instead of a mission. Thank God! (pun intended)

I only go to take my daughter and spend time with her because she likes going. But I defuse whatever she was taught each week afterwards and let her know its bull crap and she needs to take any positive messages and dump the rest.

I'm just bummed that its so weird of a situation. All my adult "friends" were just church related stuff. And I don't want to hang out with any more mormons. I just want to be around exmos, or nomos. I'll try those websites that imaworkinonit suggested too.

Just never been so terribly lonely. :/

First of all, I am sorry about the situation you find yourself in.

I can't even begin to give you advice about how to change that situation. Maybe you could talk to a professional who can advise on living with someone with a mental illness, or how/when to move on when you just can't do it anymore. I do believe that if you are going to continue in that marriage, you should take firm stands on boundaries and not allow her to dictate the beliefs or your behavior (church attendance, coffee, etc) in the home. In other words, be proactive in freeing yourself and your kids from the mind-shackles of the church.

As far as making non-LDS friends, I highly recommend it. In Utah Valley, there are lots of groups and meetups for exmos. I don't know where you are, but if you look up the Mormon Spectrum website, you can look to see if there is an in-person community near you. I know the people who run this website and they are wonderful people. We meet up regularly for coffee, hikes, and support groups for those navigating relationships with the Mormons in their lives.

You have choices. It's time to explore ways to make your life better and balance that with your sense of responsibility to your wife and kids.

I think you also need to consider how growing up with a dysfunctional mother might make your kids likely to get into co-dependent relationships. Or at least talk to a professional and get their take on that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2016 01:54PM by imaworkinonit.

Thanks for that advice and those websites. I'm in SLC, so I'm sure a lot of them around here. I started clicking on them.

Yeah, I've had lots of conversations with my kids about mom, and about the church. I think they'll be just fine. Its a tough one with their mom, because she really is great towards them. They love her, she loves them. Its just hard being her husband, because what makes her great with the kids (i.e. she's very childlike) makes it hard to be around her as an adult. No adult thoughts or desires or interests. She'll get excited about going out for ice cream with the kids, but would never go to a concert, opera, ballet, hiking, even a walk. It's like I'm raising an extra child for the last 20 years.

The thing with living with somebody with pschological/emotional/personality disorders is there is no "fixing" it, there's just making the best out of the lemons you got. So that's why I'm looking for a new life, outside of my home, where I can associate with like-minded nonmos/exmos and have some actual THINKING, NON-BRAINWASHED, ADULTS to associate with---- I can hardly imagine it.

Thanks Again!

Interesting that you describe your TBM wife as interested in somewhat childlike activities. My TBM husband is very much the same. He's a fun dad, but he has no interest in connecting with me on an adult level. He's not interested in having any sort of meaningful conversation on any subject or even spending time with me. He'd just rather play games on his phone. He shares more interests with our kids than he does with me. I feel like his mother quite often.

It's very odd. My husband is very emotionally immature. He becomes offended very easily and pouts like a child. I've actually been researching social disorders recently in an effort to find something that would help me understand my husband a little more, but haven't found what I'm looking for yet. Perhaps this childlike behavior is unique to some TBMs?

Now that's interesting. I've been living with this for 20 years and you're the first person I've heard say the same thing. I've done a lot of research, spent thousands of dollars on therapists and counselors, and I'd say that your comment is very astute. Yes, I think being TBM is a factor. Especially if BIC.

Simply, we are all different. And our brains work and process information and emotions differently. And for some, growing up BIC has little or minor affect on us. However, for others, like my spouse (and it sounds like yours too), the effect of growing up indoctrinated (=brainwashed) has MAJOR lasting affects. Even if not BIC, but convert, if you become TBM you effectively turn off the critical-thinking part of your brain and you revert to the childlike state of relying on an all-knowing entity (the Church, but as a child it was your parents) for your guidance and thoughts. Thus, you become childlike as you are never weaned off of that reliance on a third-party source for your livelihood, and you never mature into a full-fledged adult that not only cares for their physical being, but cares for their own thoughts.

Essentially, growing up and becoming an adult requires you to throw away your carefree childlike existence and become responsible AND thinking. When most of us do this, we enjoy it, and as such we start to enjoy adult activities that help nurture those thoughts. Likewise, our enjoyment of childlike actives starts to wane. But for those that remain at the teat of the Church, with the type of brains like our spouses, they avoid this maturity, and thus avoid the adult activities that come along with it.

Does any of this sound familiar to you?
1. A focus on the afterlife and eternity, at the expense of any focus on the present.
2. An attempt to re-live or extend childhood?
3. An abject disdain for anything that most people would find "normal" adult interests: adult food (as opposed to kiddie food), lack of understand or interest in politics, "grown-up" activities like concerts, opera, ballet, symphony, Oktoberfest, comedians (oh, they're too dirty), gourmet food (oh, they serve alcohol there).
4. An almost obsession with things they did as children: same movies, same food, same interests, same stories.... like they are stuck in some sort of weird time warp.
5. Guilt over sex. Unable to leave childhood thoughts and teachings that it was bad, and that you are evil if you have or enjoy any type of intimacy.
6. Over-attachment to the children. Wanting the children to never grow up. Obsessing over spending time with them.
7. Thoughts or comments along the lines (usually meant as a compliment) "I know you'll never leave me", "I'm so glad we were married in the temple because our marriage is eternal and you'd never give that up.", "You are the best parent to our kids, they need you and love you so much."

Thanks for sharing. I really find it fascinating to talk to somebody else out there who understands.

I think there is a lot of emotional immaturity in the LDS church. The church hits the kids hard with guilt and shame, primarily focused around sexuality in their formative teenage years and it sticks with them. Then they fail to mature and realize that when they are biologically adults, that they can act like adults. Think about it. Even as adults if you are sexually active outside of marriage or doing anything "naughty" you have to run to the bishop to spill the beans and get the guilt off your chest. It causes people to be emotionally immature and not grow up. I saw it in my ex wife and I see it in a lot of single adults in Utah.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2016 07:23PM by alaskawild.

You so nailed it on the head. The indoctrination of children is so powerful and has a long-lasting impact, especially on people who are overly susceptible; and for them, the impact on the way the brain works and processes the world around them can be a lifelong burden. My wife has been in therapy for years, and is treated as PTSD. It is the same as any other child that was brainwashed. For them, in reality, there is no difference on the brain from being BIC or being born in a prison camp in North Korea. Either way, your brain is rewired in such a way that you can't process information in a rational manner.

In my wife it is manifest by not being able to mature into an adult. And as you stated, this is not uncommon for people who had guilt and shame thrust upon them in unmeasurable amounts continually through their childhood and teen years, especially regarding sexuality.

And since sexuality is a major component of maturity, somebody unable to deal with their sexuality is unable to deal with their maturity.

My Ex was very childlike. He joined church at 18. If we visited with another couple, he would spend the whole evening talking silly with the kids our talking about himself.

Yes, yes. I didn't even get into the embarrassing things she says in public. You know how "kids say the darndest things" and its cute and funny when an innocent little kid says some totally inappropriate thing to somebody? Its like that. Only she's an adult. And its no so funny.

One thing that I want you to carefully consider is that you can put your experience of your wife's mental illness into context. Your children can not. It is the only reality they've ever known.

My dad died when I was 14 years old after years of illness. My mom was a wonderful, lovely woman, but she simply could not cope with my dad's illness and death. She spiraled into depression. Her reality became my reality. It was all I knew. Due to no one's fault, my home life became a living hell.

I was removed from my home and went to live with my brother and my (eventual) sister-in-law. It was beyond difficult. But it was also the best thing that could have possibly happened to me. I was forced to grow up quickly. I was living in a heady atmosphere of graduate students from MIT and Harvard (and went to high school with Richard Bushman's kids, as a matter of interest.) My mind was opened to new things. I grew up. Most importantly, *I developed a sense of normalcy and healthy relationships.* I can't emphasize this enough.

Transitioning into womanhood was still difficult. I had to learn the hard way how to be independent, how to cope with difficult situations, how to deal with a variety of people, how to start and develop a career. Call it the school of hard knocks.

Think hard about the situation that you are presenting to your kids. They don't know what a normal adult relationship is because they've never had a close experience with it. They don't know how a grown-up woman is supposed to act. They don't know about appropriate adult interests and activities.

I'm just giving you something to think about. Along with...when will it be time for YOUR needs to be fulfilled?

I agree with this comment. Living with a parent with "issues" cans also cause "issues" in the children.

Another thing for you to consider.

If I were you (for whatever it's worth) I'd start planning an exit to the marriage. How old are your kids?
What happens when the nest is empty and it's just the 2 of you? What will THAT life be like for you?

Has your wife had mental health intervention? Would she agree to it?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2016 10:57PM by maizyday.

Totally agree. I can't picture an empty nest. We have no relationship outside of raising the kids. Once they're gone, we have nothing. And the marriage will end. Unfortunately, the youngest is only 6.

The years of therapy have helped. To some degree. Way back she was literally an unfit mother and was emotionally unstable around the kids. Luckily, with therapy she's now great around the kids and a great mom. Unfortunately, the therapy has yet to make any progress on the adult side of things. She's still stuck in this strange childlike state of being.

Which is why I'm hoping to meet other exmos to associate with and form some friendships and relationships. So I no longer have to rely on my church and my wife for the entirety of my social life.

Do you know what Mormons think of mental health professionals? Those people think masturbation is okay and gayness isn't deviancy.

Good advice, thank you. I'm constantly trying to assess the pros/cons of staying in the current situation. Not only has my wife been going to therapy for the past 10 years, but I've also started going so I could talk to a professional who could help me out from my perspective and make sure I was handling the situation as best as I could.

As strange as it sounds, my children are relatively sheltered from the "abnormalities" of my wife. For most intents, they see her as a fun, loving, nurturing mother. They know she sleeps a lot and is "sick" a lot, but the way she treats them is near stellar. She's not incapable of the emotional support that they need. Rather, she's incapable of the emotional support that I need. Her inability to mature into an adult actually has a lot of "benes" for the kids, and they don't really see the downside, the lonliness, the isolation, and the lack of fulfillment and true adult connectedness that I endure.

Thus my dilemma. For all intents, she's a great mother, and the kids don't need to be, and shouldn't be, removed from her. My therapist agrees. But for me personally, its been an empty 20 years.

The areas where the kids can be affected the most, the Church, I speak openly with them and let them know they have a choice to go/not go, believe/no believe, and pick and choose. Although my wife is TBM, her laziness keeps her from getting too involved with the kids from a religious perspective.

If she's been going to therapy for the last 10 years, maybe she needs a new therapist?

who has chosen to stay with their ill spouse that they should leave? (Well really, that's what you are saying.)

I think it is more than wonderful that this man wants to keep his family intact, and so sad that some would seemingly advise against that.

To the op: you are doing what is right. Do everything you can to keep your family together. Don't give up. There is always hope. People underestimate the damage done to children by divorce. Being mindful of the possible pitfalls to having a mom who is not functioning up to full potential will enable you to help your children cope.

I encourage you to do everything you can to keep things going. Mormonism aside (and believe me, I hate the cult for what it is)-I believe God will honor your decision.

notmonotloggedin.

Sounds a little how people behave in those serious cults, like they had in the 60s/ early 70 s, where they all act alike, almost like robots, but in your case it's a sweet childish behaviour , instead of being a moonie or child of God.
I still like childish things at times, like playing sports or visiting my friends ,instead of going to operas or ballets. I love jazz and blues concerts though and some baroque.
Your wife seems to take it to extreme though. Will she go to non violent movies?
How old is your daughter? Is she really into the church or is it just the friends and activities that she likes? What hobbies does she like that she can go to that's not church connected ?
Hopefully when she's older and is at the age to take on callings in the church, she'll think differently, especially when it consumes all her time, as soon as one calling is over, she'll get another. Be expected to visit teach, then have home teachers once a month.
That's what made me stop attending church for about ten years, from 1998-2016, when I found this site, I still subscriped to the Ensign and Liahora, read books by church leaders , etc, but I didn't go to church, not because I thought it was wrong , but because I didn't want to talk or be talked into a calling .
Is that what your wife could be afraid of also,if she doesn't attend , but still talks and thinks of the church?
Does she know the truth about the early church and JS?
You can go to church for 80 years snd never hear the truth,
I do know you won't read about it in the ensign.
As soon as I found this site, then looking up things myself on the net, I was shocked.
NOW I'm not going to church because I know it's a big scheme.
Does your wife know any of this, of course, if she's really TB, she won't want to look at anything that looks " anti".
Like the others said, there's plenty of support groups , especially if you live in Utah, sorry for talking too much.
Are there any ladies your wife's age , she can hang around with that aren't LDS?
Does she have any hobbies?
Sounds like she's church caused depressed. Maybe deep down she knows some things about the church aren't true, but is afraid of losing everything if she quits going.
There is life outside the LDS church
Oh yeah , does she like the fairy tale based ballets, like Sleeping Beauty? The Nutcracker will be out soon. If she's close to the kids, can she go with just your daughter?

Yeah, she's heard and read all the truth about the church. But when you're indoctrinated you can twist and turn everything into a simple "man does not understand all of God's ways", and poof--- all rational thought vanishes. Just look a the way the FARMS and FAIR can explain, to THEIR satisfaction, any and all realities about the church. Trying to explain reality to a brainwashed TBM is like trying to explain nuclear physics to a 4-year-old; they hear everything you say, but nothing registers.

And I agree, I'm into messing around and childish stuff too. I still like to eat candy, and play video games with my kids, and shoot hoops, and ride motorcycles, and go to X-Games, and go see monster trucks with my kids. I think there's a benefit in being balanced and enjoying the variety of activities available (especially here in SLC). Its just that my wife is so unbalanced. And likewise, she wouldn't do any of the things I just mentioned either. All, and I mean A-L-L, she does is Sleep, Read (teen books, romance, and vampires), and Watch TV. Period. Done. "Hey, I'm taking the kids sledding, wanna come" Nope. "We're all going to the park, wanna come". nope. "The Blues Festival is in town, wann a go". nope. Fill-in-the-blank. Nope. However, "wanna get ice cream" yep. "Wanna go to Lagoon, they have dippin dots there" yep. "Wanna go see some dumb PG-13 scary movie. They have popcorn and candy there." yep.

She quit going out of laziness, really. Can't wake up before noon. So she stays home and then feels guilty she didn't go.

And hanging out with ladies that are outside LDS. No way. She was indoctorinated to believe that non-members are to avoided. They will try to destroy your testimony. They will try to get you to sin. "Avoid Temptation" = Avoid Non-LDS.

Unfortunately, hanging out with ANY adults is off her menu. She's even told me, many times, "I don't want any friends. The kids are my friends. I don't need anybody else." And that's been the answer to 20 years of trying to get her out of the house.

The sledding didn't work ? Heck, I'd be out the door as fast as I get my warm gear on. I'm the only adult that I know who will do it, that doesn't have kids with.
What about those trips to the ice cream shop, etc, can you make a detour to a Barnes and noble to look at books or one that your daughter wants and she can browse , even if it's the teen section.
She might pass by some age approvals books on the way.
By the way, B&N has a treat cafe, she can even read her books there, even one that you or your daughter picked out got her.

Have you discussed with your wife the fact that her oldest child does not intend to serve a mission and that he has your full support in this?

I would think that this would stir her...

Yes, she knows now. She wasn't too thrilled, but surprisingly wasn't too upset either. I think what is over-riding everything is a general laziness. Maybe its the non-adult reaction to it. What I mean is, that most adult TBM who's son just said he wasn't going on a mission would get all distraught and try to "save" him and talk him into going. But my child-like TBM wife, can't really deal with it as an adult, so it just slides. Or maybe its just her lazy, do what's easiest, nature. It's really kind of weird because on the one hand she's 100% TBM, but on the other hand she's too lazy to do anything about it. Odd.

I appreciate all your comments. This is the first time I've ever opened up about all this (other than my therapist) and its really nice to have some people out there listen and provide input. Seriously, this is great therapy. Might ultimately not change my situation, but at least the unloading of all these pent up thoughts feels good.

I'm the last person in the world who should be saying this, but I sure think there may be a bad 'brain-brew' component to what you described in the original post of your wife's behavior.

Has she been tested and diagnosed? Was anything prescribed?

Yes, and very happily.

Even so, I stopped going to church long before my husband became unable to go. When he was still able to go (with me at home), he received a lot of sympathy from old friends. He was a hero---still going to church, even though I didn't. (I think he rather enjoyed their sympathy.)

Both at home now, we seldom bring the church subject up. I share church news with him that I get from RfM or the internet (such as J.S. with his head in his hat, while "translating" and dictating what he supposedly saw, to a scribe at the table, with a book--supposedly the BofM--sitting on the table between them, covered with a cloth). Supposedly, according to this scene, the scribe, let alone J.S., never peeked. Ridiculous.

Interesting you should say that, because I know all about the hero status.

My wife quit going about 10 years ago. She still believes. 100% TBM. Just too lazy to go. So I've been taking the kids alone for the last 10 years. And yes, I do get treated like a hero. I'm sure your husband did too. I get extra attention. Everybody is my "best friend". I can tell the bishop or EQ Pres "Now's not a good time for me to take on a calling or HT", and they're super supportive. And I get lots of "I just love looking over at you and seeing you with your daughter together. What a loving father."

So yeah, the one taking the kids gets the extra kudos badge of approval from the rest of the Ward.

I feel like my mother never fully grew up. It wasn't the level of dysfunction like you were describing with your wife, so I'm not even sure it's relevant.

She was unable to deal with us having difficulties in our lives. She was unable to deal with stress in her own life, and looked to us for emotional support. But she couldn't give it back. She lacked independence. She lacked emotional depth. She was passive aggressive. There were issues of anxiety and depression, and towards the end of her life she tried a new anxiety med that made a huge difference in her ability to reach out to others.

So I don't know how much of her personality was trained by the church, and how much was chemistry.

It's sad that your presence enables your wife to remain child-like, but your two main goals are to take care of your children, and lead (model) a healthy life.

So do that.

She doesn't have to accompany you, does she? Your older children and other friends can try the opera, differing cuisine, correct? If mom wants to stay home, so be it. You can take some kids some places, other kids other places. When you go to the comedy club with friends you met at art class, on the shooting range, in the reading or writing group/class, she can stay home, or if she changes her mind eventually, get a sitter if needed.

You need to live.

It's her choice to join you, or not.

Her mental illness(es) (or comfy-for-her choices) are not your prison. You CAN make healthy choices. If she becomes a danger to herself or others, professionals know how to deal with that.

As it is, she has little incentive to try to get better, or grow up.

Her child-like ways are not your childrens' prison, either. They need to see how adult women behave, interact in society. They need to have healthy female adult influence.

There are sculpting, reading, family activities to culturally expand their minds. Children can be absolutely awed by an orchestra, or dinner-playhouse. There's one in my area that has an extensive self-serve salad bar, then the servers bring your meal, then we watched those servers do a reasonably good job of West Side Story. Very enjoyable.

Start with a long drive, alone. Tell her you need time on your own, to think. An hour out, an hour back. You are not at work, or walking the floors at home looking for an adult to talk to. You are thinking what YOU want to do first. Stop and have a coffee and sandwich. Maybe write notes of what places, events or pursuits you'd like to investigate.

You are only as trapped as you allow.

Expect some blowback, some thrasing about, child-like fits, but you are not responsible for her behavior. I suspect she'll survive, but be kind as possible, change is scary for the young. Firm, kind, calm. This is your decision, and you choose to live. "Coming, dear? No? Maybe next time." Then go, be in the moment, enjoy yourself, share with others. Come home refreshed, tired, sated.

Yes, you have obligations, but, you also have only this one, short life. Your kids have only one childhood. Show them the authentic, grown-up, fun-loving, social, cultured, loving man you are.

My only caution to you is that as you get out into the adult world and make friends, you will inevitably meet a female companion. I strongly suggest you end your marriage before you get caught up in a new relationship.

Ending your marriage will likely be the best thing you can do for all involved as you are enabling her continuation of being in a perpetual child like state. And you deserve a LOT more than what you've living through.

Did I miss the post where your wife was diagnosed with depression? Because I really, really wish you'd stop using the word "lazy." Maybe she is lazy, but it reads like depression. That whole not getting out of bed thing, having anxiety about going to church and then being unable to make herself go and feel guilty about it -- that all screams depression to me. (Takes one to know one: I have no social life anymore either because I make plans, start feeling anxiety about it, cancel the plans, and then feel horribly guilty for not going, which exacerbates the depression. I wish I had a friend who understood and could manage to drag me out of my house sometimes.)

So you have said she's in therapy. Is she taking meds? Depression can be secondary to PTSD.

I just wish you'd stop calling it lazy.

She's been in therapy for a decade. It seems reasonable that the idea of depression being the cause and a proscription for an anti-depressant would have been explored during that time.

Yes, you are correct, she's had various diagnosis, and various treatments both medicinal and otherwise. It's just that when it comes to diagnosing personality and social disorders its not as easy as doing a blood test and seeing a specific virus on a petri dish and saying you've got "X". A lot of it is subjective and best-fits, or somewhere-on-the-spectrum-of type stuff.

While we continue with treatment through doctors, psychiatrists, therapists, and counselors, I'm no longer on a mission to "change" or "fix" my wife. The situation is what is. Sometimes you can't fix things, the best you can do is figure out how to live with them. And I'm okay being married to her and helping her out for now, and doing what's best for my kids. And I've received a lot of advice from professionals on this. And ultimately we will probably divorce once I've determined its the best move for the kids. (I know there's a lot of mixed advice out there about staying in a marriage "for the kids", but each situation is unique and has a ton of factors, so you'll have to just trust me that I've been through it all with multiple professionals and I'm fine with the decision I've made.)

She's had to deal with a lot of crap that I never did. I feel for her. I love her. I care deeply for her. But ultimately I get nothing back out of the relationship. She had various crappy childhood issues due to multiple reasons (parents, history of family issues, etc.) and due very much to this god-damn life-sucking mind-altering all-encompassing all-controlling mormon church!

Humans are complex beings and for some difficult situations there isn't a single answer or solution- and some issues don't have a solution, they just have work-arounds and coping mechanisms. Does my wife have PTSD due to the brainwashing from the church, yes. Does she have depression, yes. Is she narcissistic, yes. Is she lazy, yes. And am I a whole bunch of mixed this's and thats', and some of them even contridicary to eachother, and some of them good, and some of them bad, yes. I'm not all one thing, and she's not all one thing. We're all, each and every one of us, a huge bag of mixed fruit loops.

Thus, why I came to this board. Not to try to change my situation with my wife or kids, but to try to change my personal relationships with people. Up to this point I've only known Mormon people. My adult relationships were with my wife and with church associates. My relationship with my wife isn't fulfilling on an adult level, and my relationships with church members are all superficial and probably just "fake" since we "have" to be friends since we sit in the same pew, go to the same activities, etc. I think a lot of exmos will relate to that feeling of "are these people really my friend, or have they just been ASSIGNED to me?" And since I've recently decided to finally abandon all belief (or fake belief) in this stupid church, I want to make exmo and nonmo friends. I want to talk to people with similar circumstances. I want to have some adult friends to go do some "normal" adult activities that all the adults out there in the world do- activities that aren't mandated, assigned, controlled, or regulated by the mormon church.

I appreciate all the advice and feedback. Thank you all. And I've started browsing through some of those links to meetup groups. I see I just missed one of the annual conferences of one of the groups, so bummer there. Hopefully I'll get to finally start meeting some "real" people out there.

Do you ever sit back and think "how the hell did life turn out to be such a messy puzzle?" (Or is that just me?.. j/k)

"Do you ever sit back and think "how the hell did life turn out to be such a messy puzzle?"

Yes. And as i read your response, I saw you continue to conflate "lazy" with "depression." And seeing as how I am really struggling with depression right now, that made me cry. Because you think that about your wife, there must be other people who look at me and think, "Well, she's just lazy."

So yes. I would like to know just how in the hell my life turned out to be such a shitshow.

Sorry to hear you are struggling with depression. It is a difficult thing to endure. I hope you have the support of loved ones and of competent professionals. (my own experience: see both a psychologist AND a therapist.)

I wish you the best in your work through, management, and hopefully your recovery.

Truly sorry for any conflating or confusion of the two terms I might have expressed. Please don't internalize anything I say about my wife with your own situation. (And likewise anyone else's situation with your own.) She is not you. And you are not her. And just because she has periods of one, or the other, or both, doesn't apply to you or your situation.

Depression is real. And its hard. Its hard for the sufferer, and its hard for those around them that love them. It's nothing to be ashamed of. It's just something that some people have to unfortunately deal with and/or cope with and/or cure and/or endure, and/or etc.

Like I said, we are all a basket full of various flavors of fruit loops, and in various quantities at various times.

So when I refer to my wife's laziness, I am not referring to her depression that she's had AT TIMES. I'm referring to HER, specifically, and nobody else. And I'm referring to her attitude about life and doing things ASIDE from and PERIODS WHEN SHE'S NOT SUFFERING FROM depression.

Laziness and depression are 2 different things. And somebody can have one, or the other, or both.

I don't have time to go through the entire psychological history and assessment of my wife, so I've spoken on here in summary form. Please know that I understand the difference between depression and laziness, and I know my wife, and I know her various issues at times. I don't know you at all, and I would never presume to diagnose you.

If people think YOU are just lazy, then they are wrong. If they are mean to you about it, they are wrong and are jerks.

If possible, try to get the people around you to read about depression. Try to help them understand it is a real physiological condition whereby the brain isn't quite working right- some chemicals aren't being produced and/or used in the right way and/or quantities. Just like an elbow might not be working right. And the symptom is the depression that you're feeling.

Please don't interpret my experience with my wife, and what I know and say about my wife, as anything other than just simply that. Me. My wife. It doesn't mean any body around you thinks anything about you. Because you aren't my wife, and I'm certain your experience, and the experience of those around you is entirely different than the experience of my wife and me.

newlifenow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> My wife is a mess. Multiple psychological and
> personality disorders keeps her in bed all day
> long. Mostly brought on by the church and her
> undying belief in a psychotic world of an
> all-knowing punishing God who watches everything
> you do, and Jesus is always in the room spying on
> you, and no matter what you do you'll never be
> good enough.... etc.

.....Dad ? is that you??????.......

Of course I am joking, my MORmON male parent and resident MORmON enforcement agent, AKA capt asshole, is very dead ...... which is the best he has ever been.


> Even though I have no relationship with my wife,
> as she is mentally, physcially, sexually, and
> emotioinally vapid and removed herself from the
> world around her, I can't leave. I have 4
> children that I refuse to abandon.
>
> So what do the rest of you do? Those who have
> left, but have a spouse still in the church, and
> kids?


uhhhhh my deal got so bad that I ended up abandoning the kids, forced to in the interest of self preservation, Yah it really did get that bad! ........does that help you feel any better about your deal????

>
> I'd like a relationship with an adult OUTSIDE the
> church, but how do you go about finding and
> meeting people, while your spouse is still ALL-IN
> TBM?

you are stuck, anchored in .......just like the vipers at LDS inc planned and are counting on.

......but at least you have RFM, something that many who were trapped in MORmONISM did not have as an outlet just a few decades ago.

> Both of us BIC. I never believed any of it, but followed along > with it all because it was my culture, my family, my way of
> life.

> 40 years later, and 20 years into marriage, with 4 wonderful
> kids, I just want out.

And thus we see that no matter how innocuous that tolerating MORmON evil may have seemed at the time, having soul sucking MORmONISM in a person's life always takes a toll.

I get that you aren't into "fixing" your wife; but, because whether you keep trying to fix it or not, you're suffering in a toxic situation, and I hate to leave it like that, here goes:

In your first post about child-like state, I immediately thought about my small, Mormon-town, library bookclub I belong to. We read stupid young adult novel after young adult novel. It's almost all women. Some of the young adult novels aren't terrible, given the difficulty of writing for the genre: no ambiguity, no conflict, no challenge, every situation is a stupid plot device, most of all, no sex! For teenagers, they're fine. They're safe. But what's the allure to these adult women? It's what you say. Laziness. They're playing it safe.

Then I read your post where you said she likes to read--the books I'm reading! Vampires (not the scary-sexy ones, teenage romance vampires!) Ughh. Romance--without sex, what's that? Just a tease. Young adult, etc.

But literature opens the mind. Here's my suggestion: start a real bookclub with her. Every evening, she's in bed anyway, sit on the edge of the bed for half-an-hour and read a book together. Do it together so she has someone to confront the challenging thoughts with her. Make it an adult book, a classic, but a non-threatening one. Like, Xmas is coming; so read A Christmas Story. Who hasn't heard of the heart-warming tale of Scrooge, Bob Cratchet, and Tiny Tim. God Bless Us Everyone! Is there anything as Christian as that? And with all the childish, cartoon treatments of the story out there, she'll think its a safe kid's book. It's not. You'll get dragged into injustice, poverty, and problems.

You can work your way to Les Miserables, Hugo's version. You know, every Mormon's favorite musical! Welcome to poverty, injustice, despair--even prostitution.

You can make a trip to the Shakespeare Festival. Read the plays together beforehand. She doesn't want to go? Don't give her a choice. She's a child, remember. Children don't choose. Adults do.

Eventually, you may be reading Three Musketeers together. A fun romp, but randy as hell!

For your own sanity.....

How real can you be with your wife? Could you come out of the non believing closet? Could you have a frank conversation that you are willing to be there for her and help her, but that you are thinking of dating outside of your marriage? Some things depend on how much judgment you are willing to take from her and others..... I am still legally married to my husband. We live in the same house with our 2 kids. But even though he is still totally tbm, and completely disapproves, I date women. Our divorce is going to take a while and we haven't been "together" for years.

She doesn't need to approve..... Your welfare matters too.

I could get to the point where I'm out of the closet with her, and that wouldn't be too bad (I think), and I'm progressing towards that. That's partly why I came on here, so I could see what others do. So thank you very much for sharing your story with me.

The open marriage thing would definitely not work. She wouldn't just be upset, but it would be full-blown nuclear at the house and/or suicide watch. We've spoken along these lines with therapists and I know what that road looks like and its not worth it for me. I'd rather continue down the lonely road, the only one I've ever known(c), than venture down that nuclear road that would be devastating for my children.

So regarding dating outside of marriage, "IF" I did that, I could only do it secretly. But then I'd just be committing adultery and cheating on my wife, and its hard to imagine doing that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2016 05:45PM by newlifenow.

I'm glad you aren't going to go down the secrecy path. I think it's a mistake too.

We exaggerate the effect of being TBM causing persistent immaturity. Correlation is not causation. Immaturity is everywhere, not just in church.

Turns out that most people are not deep thinkers and want someone else to take care of them or want to avoid personal responsibility or don't want to read and study. Which is why most people love government programs and wars, and like to be a victim (feminism) or vote based on their feelings instead of commitment to the Constitution which the Oath of Office demands. Elections are won by promising the most candy to the children.

Also explains problems like our obesity epidemic and over-consumption of junk food. The adult children can't control themselves. Guys at work on energy drinks all day. People can't function without caffeine or alcohol or some other drug.

So yes, immaturity is not a mental problem - it is the norm.

Those of us who like to think are actually the strange ones. I went to therapists and shrinks for years for my "problem" which I finally realized was for my thinking problem. Thinkers go crazy in this world where little makes sense. When I gradually figured out how messed up things are, my depression went away.

I spend time studying on the internet while my wife watches the same old cop shows that all seem the same to me. I try to ignore or just go elsewhere.

It turns out that exmos still worship an assortment of religions, one of which is marriage. It is a bogus concept. As others mentioned, somehow we are led to believe all our needs must be met by our spouse. We are to control the other and if they get satisfaction elsewhere, they are "cheating". Which leads to jealousy, misery and resentment. You have to have trust and if they ever cheat you are to throw a fit or punish or divorce them and make them pay.

You are the property of your wife.

As others mentioned, if she's not interested, go elsewhere for satisfaction, and if she doesn't like it, that's her problem. No reason to blow up the family unless she chooses.

A few more thoughts.

Depression in some is situational. Was with me. I just hated my job and religion, but could work like crazy on my small farm. Once I re-arranged my life, depression went away.

My wife supposedly says she's depressed. And she recently announced after 33 years of marriage that she hates cooking. Which confuses me with her library of cookbooks and her love of cooking shows. And she seems to really like cooking when the kids come home. Which she then admitted she likes to cook for them but not me. Again, situational.


To hear that your wife is great with the kids but otherwise is depressed sounds the same. She likely is just not that into you. Most women live for their kids - the husband is just a source of money to support that. You are a job for her - and most people at work slack off if they can.

If you are providing all the money she needs, what is her motivation to do anything? Why not lay in bed?

Might want to remind her that the modern woman craves a career and she needs to get out there! Pissed off my wife when I suggested that, which was another source of confusion for me as I had been listening to the feminists.

I once worked in an Indian town in Alaska where everyone got a government check and depression and alcoholism were rampant.

Your wife appears to be immobilized, both by depression and her lds upbringing. Shake things up and ask her why the kids would want to grow up. Being an adult means staying in bed, being a kid, no responsibilities.She seems to be deeply committed to her children, would she be willing to set the example for them of critical thinking, adult activities, adult conversations, problem solving? Your kids sound smart, they will appreciate a mother that engages them in the adult world. Use her strength (being a good mother) to.help her pull herself out of the safety of lds inc., and into the challenges of being an adult and launching herself into adult life. Help her to understand that her reluctance to fully engage life cripples her children. She sounds like a a wonderful person, but my guess is she doesn't believe, and that terrifies her. Remind her she can be authentic.