runrunrun Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > My primary objection to political correctness is > tha we all are being forced to believe, practice > and do the same thing.
Example?
> Sorry - I want to be able to appreciate many > different cultures and customs -
So do I. The point is that having one "culture" dominate and shove out any others doesn't result in any appreciation.
Me, I'm just fine with schools not doing religious or "santa" stuff in December. 'Cause my kids and I aren't religious and we don't do "santa." Let the people who want to be religious or do "santa" do it all they want -- on their own time, with their own money, in their own homes or businesses.
Nowadays it's just a synonym for politeness. You are respecting another person by not demeaning them. That's all.
Examples: "Disabled" vs. "crippled"
"African American" vs. "Coloured"
"Developmentally disabled" vs. "mentally defective"
and so on.
Many older people grew up calling blacks "coloured" and didn't realise the term is no longer acceptable. Continuing to do so means that you wish to assert your dominance over someone else by refusing to call them what they wish to be called.
Other than these would violate the Establisment Clause of the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution Trees and Santa are secular, Natvity scenes are not . That simple.
Children need to understand the cultural roots of the holidays they see celebrated. It's good for them to learn about their culture's traditions and it doesn't matter that only some or none of them believe in the religions discussed.
Learning about a religion is not the same as practicing that religion.
There can be no peaceful coexistence without some mutual understanding and the more diverse the society the more important this is.
I am happy to celebrate any and all holidays, but I don't see a reason to ban Santa or other central traditions from schools just because some people have differing traditions which are also valid and need to be appreciated.
War on Christmas? That's a fatuous argument, a way to demean people like me who enjoy Christmas and want to share it with anyone who isn't so self important that they must recoil at the idea of Santa.
What on earth does Santa have to do with religion? I understand that he's technically st. Nicholas, but Santa is portrayed pretty much universally as being a secular figure.
Yeah, "Santa" is a modification of a christian saint, even though that's not how the imaginary character is presented now.
"Santa" is, however, a modern mascot for christmas -- you do realize that christmas is a christian holiday, right? And that lots of people don't celebrate it?
And that even some christians far on the fundie side don't do "santa," because they consider it a secular corruption of their holy holiday, and "santa" displays offend them?
How about we let schools teach school subjects, and keep them entirely out of religion, myth, fantasy, "culture," etc? Is that really such a bad idea? Parents can teach their kids their "culture" at home, without some "culture" they may or may not want being foisted on their kids at school, along with religions, myths, etc.
I think my point may have been missed, hie. The correlation between Santa and the Christian celebration of Christmas seems to be about as culturally related as the Christian celebration of Easter and the Easter Bunny.
That isn't a perfect likening, because I know Santa Claus has its origins in Saint Nicholas, but he is currently celebrated as a secular icon of Christmas, at least most commonly, as far as I know. But the point I'm making is Easter and Christmas are both religious holidays, they both have icons that are most assuredly not religious and therefore I don't understand how it's appropriate to ban displaying the image of Santa under the guise separation of church and state or enforcing one's cultural ideas or Norms on the rest of society or whatever you want to call it.
Other things I understand, but I don't agree with, necessarily. I can see someone taking offense to a nativity scene or something like that because it is obviously a religious decoration.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2016 12:41PM by midwestanon.
midwestanon Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I think my point may have been missed, hie. The > correlation between Santa and the Christian > celebration of Christmas seems to be about as > culturally related as the Christian celebration of > Easter and the Easter Bunny.
No, I got your point. I just wanted to make sure you knew there were still religious "overtones," including from those who are all for "banning" Santa. In fact, in our local school district, the only people who've asked to "ban santa" at the schools are the super-fundie christians. I hoped the irony wouldn't be lost on you :)
> I don't understand how it's > appropriate to ban displaying the image of Santa > under the guise separation of church and state or > enforcing one's cultural ideas or Norms on the > rest of society or whatever you want to call it.
Let's remember, first, that the original article *didn't* call for "banning" santa, and didn't say anything about church & state separation.
And, second, my approval of not having schools spend time & money & resources on "santa" have to do with me preferring that schools teach school subjects, and not waste numerous days on myths & holidays that people can and do celebrate on their own, in their own way (including not at all). I hope I was clear on that...?
> Other things I understand, but I don't agree with, > necessarily. I can see someone taking offense to a > nativity scene or something like that because it > is obviously a religious decoration.
It's been my experience that the vast majority of people who push for religious displays or mentions in public schools only want their own religion displayed and/or mentioned -- not anyone else's. And that they typically display far more anger and rancor than people who are either tired of having stuff pushed on them in a public setting by some majority they're not part of, or who reasonably suggest we either let all religions into schools or keep all of them out. Your mileage may, however, vary :)
Cheryl Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I've spent over 30 years in public school > classrooms and now you're claiming to know more > about my work than I do.
Um, I didn't make any such claim.
> I'm done with your know it all attitude about me > and my work. I'd never claim to know more about > what you do than you.
What bee got in your bonnet today? I didn't claim to know anything about your job. You didn't answer my question, either: is "santa" presented in school (when you did it) as a myth? It never has been in my kids' classes.
Culture is culture. There is no escaping it, school or anywhere else. To discourage it's dissemination at the school level seems both futile and overboard. And for better or worse, religious celebrations are part of the cultural Zeitgeist. There's nothing wrong with making room for other ways to celebrate holidays, or be more inclusive, but to exclude everything? I don't see how that's the right way to go.
Things aren't always balanced and sometimes people go overboard, but in my opinion the way holidays are celebrated in our country roughly reflect the demographics of our country. Maybe I'm wrong, but that has been my observation.
Literature, news articles, references in normal conversation all make reference to nursery rhymes, Bible stories, cultural fables, and holiday traditions. Anyone who lacks a thorough understanding of these subjects cannot fully appreciation or comprehend what they read or hear in daily life.
It's foolish to try to strip culture out of education because it means the citizenry lose part of the country's identity and it undermines the ability to interpret language, customs, and varying beliefs of the nation.
One example in my own life was that my mormon parents prevented my exposure to face cards, vocabulary about coffee and alcohol and many other common aspects of American culture. That meant my mind skipped over sometimes important ideas when I read literature or listened to my teachers lecture or tried to mix in normal society. Withholding exposure to holidays has the same limiting affect.
There's a vast difference between learning about these topics and being indoctrinated or forced to believe one culture or religious idea is better than another.
My two granddaughters, aged 8 and 4, are being taught NOTHING about any religious holidays. They know that Santa Claus brings gifts (so does the Easter bunny) but they know nothing of the religious traditions behind these things.
I am fond of Noah and the Ark images, and I have several of them around my house. One in wood, one in ceramic, one in a painting, etc. My older granddaughter refers to them as "the boat."
I ask my son if she even knows what an "ark" is, or the story behind it, and he says, "no."
My granddaughters love to play with the little wooden animals on "the boat," but my fear is that one day, they will be exposed to the more general meaning, symbolic if you will, of the story of the Ark, and not have a clue of what people are talking about.
I understand not raising the girls to be religious, if that's what my son wants to do, but I object to their being culturally IGNORANT.
Should I try to broach this discussion with my son in a non-religious context, so that the girls will have some idea of what is being represented here, without being totally at a loss at some future date??
This sounds like my daughters. We were given a Noah's ark puzzle and I never told her the story. My daughter has access to a toy Ark at her preschool, but she has no idea the Bible story as well. Last year I asked her preschool teacher to change the "J" theme from Jesus to something else. She did accommodate me, but I still wonder if I made a too big of a deal out of it. I just remembered that my grandma had an interesting Christmas decoration of Santa in the Noah's ark when we visited her last Christmas. She told both my girls about Noah and the ark and that he saved the animals. They were not impressed, haha. I agree that culturally speaking, it's there. It's in literature (I had an English teacher tell us if you aren't going to read the Bible for religious reasons, read it for literary reasons.) There was one crossword puzzle I did with "rainbow" as the answer as God's promise. My husband and sister-in-law didn't know the answer. I also spoke with a friend who grew up JW in Europe. She said that she knew about Christmas because you can't escape it. It was everywhere, so culturally you need to be aware.
That being said, I do struggle speaking religious with my oldest daughter. I've brought up God, just general stuff about praying, and she became frightened. She didn't like the idea of someone looking over her. She said that if she needed help with anything, she'd come to her parents. She was confused. So then I thought, was I too clumsy in presenting this info? Probably. But also it's different praying in a family setting, group setting (in church), personal prayer each week from age 3 (or younger), it is the norm. When it's suddenly sprung on you at age 6, it is not the norm. So, I have yet to personally tell them any of the Bible stories, but I'm no longer going to sweat it if they hear it from other people.
At the end I might mention that there are some people who believe this whole thing actually happened and ask them if they think that is possible. Gradually, from birth to about age seven and sometimes eight, kids begin to be able to differentiate between real and imaginary.
Problems happen when kids are pressured with rewards and punishments to believe impossible stories as true long after they're old enough to know better. Mormons and members of other authoritarian churches indoctrinate by withholding love or giving approval or gifts to children who "believe" what they're told without question.
Kids are better at figuring out real and imaginary stories if they have many experiences with both and if the parents don't force the issue but let the children explore and think about myths and realities naturally.
The same people who recoil against Santa / Christmas are the same people who gladly take that Christmas bonus ( if employer gives one) and who gladly take the paid Christmas days off.
I get the different beliefs and celebrating Christmas or not celebrating Christmas. But to push to take it out of schools / workplace. To raise hell about it. What do they want? So how about we just take it off the books. No more Christmas holiday / Santa. Now you can work instead. No paid time off, No bonus. No employee benefit to you because of this Holiday.
"The same people who recoil against Santa / Christmas are the same people who gladly take that Christmas bonus ( if employer gives one) and who gladly take the paid Christmas days off."
Santa doesn't provide my Christmas bonus. I get a bonus around Christmas because we finished our fiscal year in September and made a profit that gets shared among those that did the work.
Santa doesn't pay my wages on Christmas eve. or Christmas day (I get both off)....the company does, as a way of thanking the workers for doing what they do.
I get my year end bonus and holidays off for working hard all year, developing medical devices that save lives. Santa and his elves don't do that and they don't pay me to do it.
However, I don't really have a beef with Christmas or any other cultural expression around the holidays....I'm not that much into Christmas, I'm not Jewish, I don't celebrate Quanza. If they want to eliminate all of it, I'm OK with that. If they want to decorate and wear Santa hats, etc...I'm OK with that too. I just don't see that any of it effects me much.
I do see it as a bit of a distraction at schools or work places, and it would be fine with me to not express it there, but I'm not that bothered about it to ask for it, and I don't want to spoil what's fun for others.
pathfinder Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The same people who recoil against Santa / > Christmas are the same people who gladly take that > Christmas bonus ( if employer gives one) and who > gladly take the paid Christmas days off.
I don't get a "christmas" bonus, nor do I get paid days off for it.
> I get the different beliefs and celebrating > Christmas or not celebrating Christmas. But to > push to take it out of schools / workplace. To > raise hell about it. What do they want?
Once again, the original article did NOT advocate "pushing it out of schools." Or work. Let's be clear on that.
Me, personally, I don't see any good reason to pay public school teachers and staff and overhead to make santa decorations and have holiday parties at public schools. If the day's not going to be a school day, then give the kids the day off and let 'em celebrate however they want (or don't want) at home. Let school be school, not holiday parties.
And what most people "want" is simple fairness. We live in a diverse society, with a growing number that don't do "christmas." So either include all the holidays of everyone, or don't do any of them. Letting the dominant, majority group push their "culture" on everyone else is neither fair nor reasonable.
> So how > about we just take it off the books. No more > Christmas holiday / Santa. Now you can work > instead. No paid time off, No bonus. No employee > benefit to you because of this Holiday.
Fine with me. I don't get paid time off. I don't get a bonus (for christmas, though I do get a year-end profit sharing one that I'd get whether there was christmas or not). I don't get any employee benefit for it. And that's fine with me. Neither christmas nor santa have anything whatsoever to do with my job, work, or pay.
Sorry to dash your ill-considered premise to shreds, but there you go.
>>Me, personally, I don't see any good reason to pay public school teachers and staff and overhead to make santa decorations and have holiday parties at public schools.
We do it for the same reason that your employer might have a party, or coffee and donuts, or a dinner, or anything else that makes the workplace a bit more tolerable and humane. We work kids very hard and they need some time to relax and enjoy the company of their peers while pursuing a pleasurable activity.
Schools are also more than just course work. We have to tend to kids physical, social and emotional needs as well. Otherwise the kids won't be able to learn.
We *have* to teach culture so that the kids can become functioning members of society. My kids didn't know anything about the origins of Thanksgiving. They had no idea who a veteran is. I had to teach them. Teachers do more than transmit reading and math. We also transmit our nation's culture and heritage.
summer Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > We do it for the same reason that your employer > might have a party, or coffee and donuts, or a > dinner, or anything else that makes the workplace > a bit more tolerable and humane.
Except my employer isn't a public entity that's taxpayer funded...
> We work kids very > hard and they need some time to relax and enjoy > the company of their peers while pursuing a > pleasurable activity.
They can do that on a day off, but schools won't do another day off because they lose money if they do.
> We *have* to teach culture so that the kids can > become functioning members of society.
I'm sure there are teachers who actually do *teach* about the various celebrations that go on this time of year, and what cultural significance they have. I'm also sure (because I've observed it) there are teachers who teach nothing of the sort, and just do parties filled with the traditions and decorations of the dominant christian culture. I'm all for the former, I'm against the latter.
As a teacher, I'm sure you also recognize the "fine line" that has to be walked. For example, if you teach that christians celebrate the supposed birth of Jesus on Dec. 25, do you also teach that the bible stories strongly suggest a birth in the spring, and not the winter, and that their celebration took over the Roman Saturnalia because that way christianity was more palatable as a state religion to the ancient Romans? While all of that is fact, teaching it would probably get you into hot water. For good reason. And so even teaching facts about the celebrations this time of year is problematic, if the teaching is to be honest and fair. Which is why it's a good idea to keep religion and religious celebrations out of schools.
Now to break that down just a bit since it might be a bit complicated.
Seriously, bonuses and time off? Is that what we are seriously talking about?
No, but really, the hell?
I wonder if the the industrial military complex is profiting from this war on Christmas? Do you think we will hit this kind of arms race stalemate and we'll call it the Dumb War?
I always find it kind of sad that those who fight to include their religious belief system in government fight even harder to exclude someone else's.
"...refrain from using religious-themed decorations or images like Santa Claus".
The people teaching our kids are either too dumb to realize that Santa is not a religious icon, or too smart to regard religion as anything more than fantasy.
As a teacher, I think conversations about what it means to be inclusive are ones we should be having at school and district levels. The reality is that we have increasingly diverse student bodies; many of the students may not celebrate Christmas at all or come from cultures with very different traditions. We should recognize and respect all of them -- a tricky feat given limited class time, curriculum requirements, low budgets, and political sensitivities.
As a parent who raised kids in the Morridor during our family's transition out of Mormonism, I was uncomfortable with the heavy, relentless celebration of Mormon Christmas in the schools -- and so were my kids. School choir concerts in December featured nearly all religious music. Christmas decorations, carols, and parties dominated. It was assumed that absolutely everyone was Mormon. When I tried to bring up the issue, I was rudely dismissed with the "war on Christmas" argument that Mormons love. Mostly we just ignored and endured. Perhaps the worst occurred in January, when all the Mormon kids showed up with expensive new everything that they'd received for Christmas.
It would have been nice if we could have done anything to acknowledge that not everyone celebrates cultural Mormon Christmas.
I worry about that myself. My daughter doesn't attend church and I have no intention of raising her within a religion. She's in 2nd grade, so her classmates are talking about baptisms. Her cousins and neighbors are or have gotten baptized. At this point, everything has gone over her head (like friends talking about Primary teachers or missionaries during play dates), but some things are starting to stick. She is wondering why we celebrate Christmas and not Hanukkah. I'm glad that she has this question, so we can talk about it and learn about it at home. I'm secretly relieved at this point that she doesn't want to be baptized (thus not feeling left out.) There is no separation of church and state in Utah. I do worry about how much church stuff will permeate into the classroom. It's kinda nice that she learns traditional Christmas hymns in her choir classes (though I do cringe when I hear one overtly religious about Jesus and it's not a traditional hymn.) I will need to deal with issues as they may come.
The real war is the war on Yule and winter's solstice. I celebrate it by taking photographs of winter in it's barren yet majestic glory and every time someone ruins it with red and orange flashing Christmas lights or a strain of "Hark the Herald Angels Sing" in a car with the windows down. May they burn in trademarked by Christians Hell.
"A senior officer in the Atheist Secular Army stands accused of committing war crimes in the decades long war against Christmas.
Col. James B. Atkins, a 25-year veteran of the ASA, faces charges of crimes against humanity, including genocide, torture, and use of chemical weapons on the battlefield.
The notoriously ruthless Atkins was detained earlier this week by American officials and is being held at the U.S. detention camp at Guantanamo Bay Naval Base in Cuba. A date for his tribunal has yet to be set.
Prosecutors allege Atkins violated long-held international laws and treaties on numerous occasions over the past couple decades as an Atheist commander leading the charge to destroy Christmas.
Atkins routinely deployed tear gas on innocent civilian carolers who dared sing Christmas songs within earshot of him, according to Melanie Roussell Newman, a spokeswoman for the U.S. Justice Department.
“We’ve been trying to bring this guy to justice for years,” Newman said Monday. “There’s no telling how many Christian soldiers have been brutally subjected to Atkins’ seemingly endless diatribes about separation of church and state and why Christmas should not be a national holiday. Survivors say the torture sessions would go on for hours and hours.”
The charge of genocide against Atkins stems from allegations he tried to systematically wipe out the entire known population of elves, an ethnic group best known for baking cookies in trees and making Christmas toys in Santa Claus’ workshop at the North Pole.
“When’s the last time you saw a real-life, bona fide elf?” Newman asked. “Not a midget dressed like one with fake pointy ears, either. The fact that they aren’t around supports claims that Atkins exterminated them.”
If convicted, Atkins could face a firing squad of a dozen Red Ryder carbine-action 200-shot Range Model air rifles.