My wife's VT invited us over for dinner last night. When we got there we were joined by VT's husband, one of VT's friends, and three missionaries. "Great, I can look forward to a 7-on-1 team-up by the Mormons," I thought.

While we were chatting over food, I started to get the impression that VT's friend (a recently retired 60-ish woman) may not be Mormon as previously assumed. That was confirmed after dinner during the missionaries' dog-and-pony show of "sharing a message" with us and showing "The Restoration" video. As the "message" wound down, one of the missionaries asked VT's friend when would be a good time for them to share more messages with her.

Her immediate response was an abrupt, "No," accompanied by an cold, blank stare into the missionary's eyes.

All of the missionaries did a double-take, and the woman looked each one in the eye without offering any further explanation; like she was just daring one of them to make another appeal to "share a message" with her. None of them did, and I could barely suppress a chuckle at their confusion and discomfort. Whatever it was they saw from their perspective, it clearly didn't fit into a scenario that allowed them to proceed.

The way she said "No" wasn't angry or rude, but it clearly conveyed a message that "the subject is closed and you had damn well better accept it if you want to avoid a tongue lashing."

She had clearly mastered the power of "No". I was very impressed.

Slay, queen.

Yup. It was a trap.

That was very rude of the VT to spring that on her dinner guests.

That's exactly the point I've made with my wife whenever she suggests inviting the young family next door over to meet the missionaries.

"Have they expressed any desire to be Mormon? Do you really want to put them on the spot when the missionaries make the inevitable offer to 'share a message' with them? They are good neighbors, let's be good neighbors in return by letting them pursue their own religious beliefs on their own and in their own time."

You might want to give your nice neighbors a heads-up that, although she means well, your wife is a rabid Mormon. If the wife makes any invitations to them to come over, they might want to contact you before accepting to find out first if it's a recruitment invitation or a friendly neighbor invitation.

Amyjo Wrote:
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> That was very rude of the VT to spring that on her
> dinner guests.


I bet the VT friend is like "what kind of friend to I have????"

HOW rude

Love this story. I am almost jealous that you got to witness this even if you did pay the price of such an evening.

I've always thought an unadorned, unexplained, naked "No" is the most powerful. The second you add an explanation the "No" is put at risk for becoming a host for the beginnings of parasitical agendas such as Mormon missionaries to bore into your brain.

Empowering! Great story.

With tbm's, there is frequently a hidden agenda. It's unkind and dishonest to trap people into a "message" hidden behind a seemingly friendly dinner.Yeah, that's real Christian.

Good for her. I would be livid if I got set up like that.

Such power in such a short word, wielded well! :)

to use it.

That's a good observation.

My 2 year-old uses it. Adamantly.

Good thing she'll never be brought up mormon and lose that :)

https://www.babycenter.com/0_resistance-what-to-do-about-the-endless-nos-age-2_63741.bc

Imagine if that 2-year-old grew up without any social learning? You'd have presidential material. Some people, normally, grow to include others--family, friends, community, country, humanity--in their self-concept (holonic awareness). Others get stuck along the way.

GregS Wrote:
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> She had clearly mastered the power of "No".

We would all do well to achieve the same mastery: there is real power in it.

I will never...EVER...understand why TBMs think that their non-Mormon friends want to be ambushed like this. And this isn't an uncommon thing - when I was TBM, we frequently had "missionary challenges" each week in Elder's Quorum. It was always something along the lines of "We invited our good friends, the X family, over for dinner the other night. As soon as they got to our house, we had the missionaries there ready to share a message. They wouldn't commit to the discussions yet, but we're working on them!" And this type of behavior was not only accepted, but encouraged!

Mormons are spiritual hillbillies. I'm sure at their core they mean well, but they don't understand how other people could be hurt, or just put off by this type of shit. My TBM friends would have no problem ambushing me with a missionary dinner (I learned a long time ago, never accept an invitation to dinner at a Mormon's house), but would be outraged if they came over for pizza and board games at my house, only to be greeted by my pastor and an invitation to learn more about Lutheranism.

"Mormons are spiritual hillbillies".

True. But also social neanderthals as well. Offensive combination. They really need to work on their "bait and switch" techniques.

(I guess that was not a nice thing to say about neanderthals.)

Mormons are pretentious. I know because that's what I used to believe as a mishie when completing a LDS Media Referral for (barf) "Together Forever". Mormons used to think that it was the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Kinda reminds me of the time in high school when a friend invited a bunch of us over for a "spiritual get-together"....


.....and it turned out to be an Amway pitch!!

Grrrrr.......

Exactly!

These missionary ambushes have always reminded me of a college "get-together" I was invited to. I saw an easel in the living room, and my first thought was that some kind of charades game was on the agenda.

That horror was soon dashed and replaced by a greater one once the Amway pitch began.

This might be an opening for you to make the point with your wife about how inappropriate and rude it is to invite people to dinner with a hidden agenda.

It's dishonest and manipulative. It's pretending to want to become better friends or hang out with people, when the real purpose is to influence them under the guise of friendship. Bait and switch.

I believe that it's possible to introduce the idea to a TBM that what the church encourages them to do is non-helpful, dishonest, and maybe even immoral. It might diminish her blind trust of leaders.

I remember as a TBM how my husband cracked my faith in visiting teaching. He used to gently make fun of my guilt for occasionally not doing my visit teaching. (And I always tried, but sometimes we couldn't find a time that worked for the ladies). He used to tell me that those ladies were probably home crying because their visiting teachers were neglecting them, etc, etc. He'd made up ridiculous scenarios where these ladies really needed and missed us, or needed our message. He'd get me laughing about it.

I eventually realized that those ladies weren't SAD that we couldn't visit them. It was obviously a hassle for them, and they didn't WANT us to come. If they LET us come, it was just to be nice to US, to help us do our duty. In other words, we were coming to make ourselves feel better, and check off our box, not for their benefit. I realized the whole thing was stupid.

This was just a small item on my shelf, but things added up.

I hate this and not just from Mormons. But, mormons are trained to do it a lot. Visiting teaching messes with my head. I am socially awkward and I have a hard time understanding People's motivations and if they are being sincere. So when VTs come over and act friendly I assume... ( or I used to) that they want to be friends. When they rush out after a lesson or they don't ever talk to me outside of their mandatory visit it hurts. I didn't understand it for the longest time. Now I do. Its lying. They are checking off a list of names so they can say they did what they were supposed to for the church.

Other examples were friends that invited me to parties... oh.. tupperware! sex toys? Kitchen supplies...So fun.

My first missionary ambush was soon after I met my wife and before I realized it was an established tactic and accepted practice.

The plan was for me to meet my wife-to-be at her cafe as she was closing up. She unlocked the door to let me in, and I proceeded to help her to tidy up before turning off the lights.

A few minutes later, there was a light rap at the door despite it being after closing. My wife called from the kitchen and told me to let them in, she was expecting them...they were "the Elders" from her ward. Wuh?

I let them in, we introduced ourselves to each other. They already knew who I was and why I was there, which put me at a distinct disadvantage. My wife called from the kitchen again saying that she would join us in a few minutes and to not wait for her.

The missionaries then asked if they could share a message with me. Why not, I figured, my date would soon be finish in the kitchen and we'll be on our way.

Nope, I ended up getting the whole spiel even after my wife joined us. The missionaries made no attempt to wrap it up so that we could be on our way.

To her credit, my wife, who I already loved and adored, was mortified and apologized profusely for what must have felt like an ambush. I admitted that that was exactly what it felt like, but she explained that the missionaries knew she was dating a non-Mormon and just wanted to meet me...she had no I idea they were going to give me a lesson.

In hindsight, that should have been exactly what she expected.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2017 03:14PM by GregS.

Members have been assured that their friends won't be bothered by these missionary ambushes.

The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.553:

"Every gospel teaching experience is a spiritual experience for all parties, regardless of whether it leads to baptism or not. Our goal should be to identify as soon as possible which of our Father's children are spiritually prepared to proceed all the way to baptism into the kingdom. One of the best ways to find out is to expose your friends, relatives, neighbors, and acquaintances to the full-time missionaries as soon as possible. Don't wait for long fellowshipping nor for the precise, perfect moment. What you need to do is find out if they are the elect. '[My] elect hear my voice and harden not their hearts.' If they hear and have hearts open to the gospel, it will be evident immediately. If they won't listen and their hearts are hardened with skepticism or negative comments, they are not ready. In this case, keep loving them and fellowshipping them and wait for the next opportunity to find out if they are ready. You will not lose their friendship. They will still respect you.

"Of course, there are discouragements, but nothing is ever lost. No one ever loses a friend just because he doesn't want to continue with the visits from the missionaries. The member can continue the association with no threat to his friendship or special relationship with that family. Sometimes it takes more time for some to come into the Church than for others. The member should continue to fellowship and try again at a later date for conversion. Don't be discouraged just because of a temporary lack of progress. There are hundreds of stories about the value of perseverance in missionary service."

["It Becometh Every Man," Oct. 1977 Ensign, p. 3]


See? Just keep pushing and pushing; they'll be OK with it!
"You will not lose their friendship. They will still respect you."
"No one ever loses a friend just because he doesn't want to continue with the visits from the missionaries."
"…wait for the next opportunity to find out if they are ready."
"…try again at a later date for conversion."

But it's their own dam' fault if they won't listen!
"…their hearts are hardened with skepticism or negative comments…"

Wow, just wow.

That bullshit about "...mine elect hear my voice and harden not their hearts" is D&C 29:7, and has to do with the Saints gathering in the Fall of 1830! Spencer W. Kimball totally misused it; it has nothing to do with harvesting converts.

But he did make it sound good, didn't he?

Section 29

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, in the presence of six elders, at Fayette, New York, September 1830. This revelation was given some days prior to the conference, beginning September 26, 1830.

1 Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Redeemer, the Great I Am, whose arm of mercy hath atoned for your sins;

2 Who will gather his people even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, even as many as will hearken to my voice and humble themselves before me, and call upon me in mighty prayer.

3 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, that at this time your sins are forgiven you, therefore ye receive these things; but remember to sin no more, lest perils shall come upon you.

4 Verily, I say unto you that ye are chosen out of the world to declare my gospel with the sound of rejoicing, as with the voice of a trump.

5 Lift up your hearts and be glad, for I am in your midst, and am your advocate with the Father; and it is his good will to give you the kingdom.

6 And, as it is written—Whatsoever ye shall ask in faith, being united in prayer according to my command, ye shall receive.

7 And ye are called to bring to pass the gathering of mine elect; for mine elect hear my voice and harden not their hearts;


The bullshittery will never end, cuz when you don't have truth/facts on your side, it's all you're left with.

"Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Redeemer, the Great I Am, whose arm of mercy hath atoned for your sins..."

Wait, did mormon Jesus only get his arm crucified?
I mean, if that's what did the atoning, the rest of the body doesn't matter...?

(This is supposed to be "Jesus" speaking through Joseph Smith in 1830. So one wonders why "Jesus" uses flowery (and incorrect) 16th century English. At least this one (me) wonders that...if "Jesus" talks to Monson today, does it still sound like badly composed 16h century English? Not like, "Yo, Tommy dude, what's up?")

What if he has an arm of mery and an arm of wrath? ...and an arm of virtue, and stealth fingers, and a beetle brow of inquiry?


This ghawd thing sounds a lot more complicated than it was made out to be in Seminary, even college seminary!

I love how the ambushed woman responded, but my heart hurts for her. She may not have had any idea what she was walking into. She may have thought that someone was being kind by inviting her to dinner only to later realize that they had an ulterior motive. It hurts to be used.

Did she know you weren't mormon? If she thought she was totally alone, that is maybe even more impressive.

Posted by: Done & Done: "Love this story.... I've always thought an unadorned, unexplained, naked "No" is the most powerful. The second you add an explanation the "No" is put at risk for becoming a host for the beginnings of parasitical agendas such as Mormon missionaries to bore into your brain.
---

So true! The naked 'no' works for whoever asks you to do something you don't want to do (baby-sit someone's kids, take a dinner to someone, etc.).

(And, I love the comparison of how a 2-yr.old quickly finds out the power of 'no'--if his/her parents allow this to work for him/her.)

Yes, there is no more powerful response than a simple, firm, "No," while looking the person directly in the eye.

As a nevermo, I would be furious to be set up in this way. It makes these Mormons seem like they have no idea whatsoever about being sociable or offering hospitality. For nevermos, a dinner party is often a primary way of entertaining. The minute the missionaries set up a video I would have walked out, saying, "I'm sorry, but I thought this was a social event, that you were offering hospitality and that you wanted my company." Turning a dinner party into a religious recruiting event is a huge insult to the invited guests.

Even people who have MLM events have the wit to tell you what the "party" is about.

How long was the video? I'm thinking that if it were me being duped like that, it wouldn't take long to figure out that it was an LDS recruitment tool, at which time I would probably have made the "Time out" sign with my hands and said something like, "I'm so sorry--I didn't realize you would be doing some religious recruiting tonight. I have lots of things at home I need to be doing, so I'll just say thank you for a lovely dinner, and I'll be going. Hope the rest of you enjoy your movie and the rest of your evening." Stand up, pick up my purse, give my hostess a cheek kiss if we (had been)(are) fairly good friends, grab my coat and keys, turn and say pleasantly to the VTs or whatever, say, "It was nice to meet you," and I'm out of the door.

That's a very good way to handle such a situation.

Why do Mormons view missionaries as spiritual giants? This woman, like the rest of the world, viewed them as still wet behind the ears teenager with no life experience.

Most likely she will find herself dropped like a hot rock by these "friends" because of her refusal to be spiritually enlightened by arrogant teenagers. They can't waste time and energy with someone who won't be joining them in their delusions.

I did have a chance to chat with her for a couple minutes alone. I told her that I was also a non-member and thought she handled the missionary's invitation for future messages very well. She said she doubted "the kids" had lived enough to learn anything worth teaching her.

But Russ Nelson says that they can help!

They'd get a NO know from me too.

The elephant in the room is the pretend niceness and after dinner entrapment and hostage situation she must have felt (instinct), the fact that the rest of you were on the lds/ weird/ freaky/ creepy cult-tick side and didn't also find it frightening.

Too bad she was all alone.
Good she was awake, alert.