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Posted by: LJ12 ( )
Date: July 22, 2019 10:59AM

I mean, stuff that actually happened or was spoken about in church whilst you were still a TBM? Before you did your research?

The things that sent alarms bells ringing for me when I was still a TBM were:

1) My Dad died (non-mormon parents as I’m a convert), and members were not sad, and in some cases were cheerful. I was in the depths of grief because my dad is the one person in my family I got on with. They said really stupid stuff like “Its ok, he’s in a better place now!” and “wow, I didn’t know you had a dad!” In contrast non Mormon friends were normal and empathic.

2) I went to stake conference and the topic was supposed to be about following Christ. What the stake presidency actually talked about was a) the preparation they and their families had to go through for talking in and getting to stake conference, and somehow Levi jeans came into it b) Tithing, tithing, tithing tithing. That was the whole stake conference.

3) Members not behaving in a Christ like way and simultaneously acting like they thought they were righteous and wonderful. My RS president beamed from ear to ear whilst trying to give me a half finished bottle of tomato ketchup; people often did not make eye contact with me at church; I’d get invited to families’ homes for Sunday dinner but when I got there no one really talked to me; married women acted suspicious of me making it difficult to make friends (so insecure wtf); old disgusting men were hitting on me; and the worst one: my phone NEVER stopped ringing, and my answering machine was always full.

That’s not to say everyone and everything was bad, but it was enough to make me miserable, the result being I felt I had to strengthen my faith in order to make staying easier. Note, I still wasn’t questioning that the church wasnt actually true. I just wanted more knowledge and liked the idea of becoming an apologist (lol!). I ended up on, which is of course a complete joke, and then obviously it wasn’t long before I found out the truth.

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Posted by: valkyriequeen ( )
Date: July 22, 2019 11:17AM

Most people don't leave because they are offended, but the way my whole family was treated from the beginning when we moved to our new "ward" stuck with me until I finally decided I'd had enough of being treated the way I was, but especially my family. All of us were practically shunned from the get go, and IMO, part of it was because we're a mixed race/culture family. One time, when my husband and I went to a wedding reception, one woman in particular looked at us with a real look of disgust in her face. Gradually, we went more and more inactive. Then one day, I was listening to my favorite local talk radio host and he talked about changing your thoughts and re-wiring your thinking. That lead me to investigating the taboo "anti mormon" sites and after finding out all the truth, rock in the hat and everything, my already weak shelf finally broke. Once in a while, we'll run into someone we know in a store and they'll say how much they miss us, but we don't buy it for a second.

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Posted by: Finally Free! ( )
Date: July 22, 2019 11:59AM

It's interesting because I couldn't put my finger on any one or two things that was a "red flag" to getting my out of the church. Your question prompted me to re-read my exit story from several years ago on the bio board to see if there was anything.

Re-reading what I wrote then reminded me of just how much the church negatively impacted my family life and how strong an impact it had on my making the decision to look up the facts of the church. I could see that the church wasn't building familys, or supporting them, but really tearing them apart. Keeping people busy with callings, overwhelming people with the need to be "perfect", not supporting families when they struggle or even going so far as to blame them for their problems rather than helping.

I think after years of seeing the impact to my parents, my sister, and finally in my own marriage, it broke the hold the church had over me just enough that I could start to look at facts about the church from non-church sources. (Richard Packham was a great help in that area and took the time to answer a few emails from me and pointed me to this site).

I think when my eyes were open enough I was able to see what the church was doing in California with Prop 8 and that disgusted me. That combined with getting the facts behind the creation of the church, the BOM, the Pearl of Great Price and other things the church is quietly backing away from now were the final straws.

But I do think the thing that started me to see was how the church treats its people. It takes advantage of the people who it's supposed to support. It took a while, but it finally sunk in that a church lead by a "loving father" wasn't supposed to do that.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: July 22, 2019 12:13PM

If you’re wearing rose colored glasses, you don’t see any red flags.

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Posted by: FelixNLI ( )
Date: July 22, 2019 01:34PM

Like your comment/quote babylon. It speaks a truth.

"If you’re wearing rose colored glasses, you don’t see any red flags."

I googled to see if it was a babylon original. Couldn't find it, only similar quote.

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Posted by: FelixNLI ( )
Date: July 22, 2019 01:44PM

A friend who had one foot in and one out began asking my tbm indoctrinated mind the type of questions that required me to think out of the Mormon box. I think it helped that he had a PHD in philosophy. This led to my reading some books about Mormon history that were not approved reading by the church.

Ultimately it was the level of dishonesty practiced by early church leaders and Joseph Smith in particular and then later leaders in hiding any aspect of the history that wasn't considered faith promoting. I hate deceitful players.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: July 22, 2019 03:53PM

I read it somewhere recently, but don’t remember where.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: July 22, 2019 12:46PM

1. Ritualistic thinking.
2. Rules following thinking.
3. Authority worshiping.
4. Corporate-tinged caring, community, and fellowshipping.
5. Lack of real feelings.
6. Hot bed for passive aggression.

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Posted by: LJ12 ( )
Date: July 22, 2019 12:53PM

Elder Berry Wrote:
> 1. Ritualistic thinking.
> 2. Rules following thinking.
> 3. Authority worshiping.
> 4. Corporate-tinged caring, community, and
> fellowshipping.
> 5. Lack of real feelings.
> 6. Hot bed for passive aggression.

* All of THIS. Especially passive aggression. Still dealing with that from family.

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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: July 22, 2019 12:54PM

My family wasn't that TBM, especially my dad. We never fit in. I was going to make sure my family fit in and that my family was forever. I always worried about losing my family from a very young age.

Then a big deal was dating some nonmormons I worked with and they treated me much better than mormon guys ever had. I had a very difficult time getting dates with mormons. I was nice looking according to anyone who knew me back then. I was very devout mormon. I was TOO INDEPENDENT. The men I worked with couldn't understand why I wasn't dating. So I dated one of them--a nonmormon. I didn't marry him. And I went right back to the fun dating game that mormonism isn't. I met my husband 5 years later and found out 7 months in that he is gay. My story is on here extensively. I had dated him 7 months. Then I got to deal with the leaders over the situation. It was not pretty. I had actually been going inactive at the time I met my future husband and when I found out he was gay and damned (according to leaders) if I didn't save him, then I stuck it out as we really didn't know what the answers were and the church was giving us wrong answers. I was a total mess emotionally, psychologically, etc. WE married. He started cheating. I went inactive so he wouldn't be called as one of the next bishops (as I was gold he would be). Eventually, after I had been inactive long enough and my marriage had ended, it all fell apart. Just in a matter of minutes.

I never did believe like I had before once I dealt with the gay issue. Then when I finally realized I no longer believed, I looked back and wondered why in the hell I had ever stayed--forever family is why. My parents never thought I'd leave. Nobody thought I'd leave. I still get people asking me if I really don't believe including my younger brother (who left as a teen).

I now have been in a relationship of almost 15 years with the first nonmormon I dated. We reconnected after 27 years apart.

My family is mostly out. My daughter is the only grandchild/great grandchild who is active mormon. My niece and nephews, siblings, etc., are thrilled I left. They still just can't believe it. I went inactive when my kids were 8. They are 33. And my siblings still can't believe it.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2019 12:57PM by cl2.

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Posted by: LJ12 ( )
Date: July 22, 2019 01:16PM

Thank you for sharing and I’m so sorry with the whole awful stuff that happened with the church and the gay issue. It’s so absolutely lovely you later got back together with your nonmormon guy. I found a lot of mormon returned-missionaries wouldn’t consider dating me , I’m guessing because I wasn’t a virgin and/or had a child. These were the same guys who as missionaries would have called me golden and worshipped the ground I walked on (in some cases it was literally the exact same guys). Such a total double standard and it really messed with my head. I suppose that had an effect on me. Lots of things like that added up to major discontent. It’s just not a nice place to be. If you don’t fit in, it doesn’t matter how ‘golden’ you are. Having said that two guys I dated were lovely and they are two of three mormon friends I still have, out of hundreds.
I was also worried about my family which is why I converted my brother. Regret that now of course. He’s more TBM than I ever was, which is ironic as I was always more religiously inclined as a child, and I was very TBM myself.
No one EVER thought I’d leave. I didn’t warn anyone either as I knew from reading stories what they’d try and do.

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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: July 22, 2019 09:35PM

part of the culture. When I was with my "husband" (still married and we share the same house which I hung onto after he left), I was treated better than any other time and he was cheating with men. People still adore him. My older sister and I had a good laugh over the fact that we believe he is still considered mormon royalty and we are the "fringe" element. I'll try to find the mormon royalty list again and post it here.

We didn't know how to play the part. My older sister did marry into a mormon "royalty" family (and so did I and we would be considered mormon royalty because of our ancestors). I could count on ONE HAND how many mormons I dated.

My boyfriend gets a big kick out of how people react to us when they see us around town. Actually, the mormon women still think they can "save" my husband and invite him to dinner, etc. A cheer went up when he left me. In the singles ward we met in, there was a lot of resentment over the fact he chose me.

My daughter is considered mormon royalty by her association with her dad even if he is gay. It is all so funny if you allow yourself to laugh about it. It is the way I've had to cope. My daughter did marry into a wonderful family though, who think I'm great just as I am. We've know them for over 30 years. They happen to be related to my father through marriage. We got a big kick out of that. My daughter is also more TBM than I was, which is pretty difficult to be.

I don't miss the mormon life at all. AND I hate it when people make it an issue and not allow me to just live my life. I'll see if I can find the mormon royalty list. Caffiened might have it (spelling of his name??).

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Posted by: CrispingPin ( )
Date: July 22, 2019 01:59PM

Over a period of many years, I had become quite adept at rationalizing, compartmentalizing, and using intense mental gymnastics to deal with doctrine, policy, and traditions. For me, the only “red flag” that I couldn’t ignore was the nature of god (specifically the Judeo-Christian god. Once I realized that I didn’t believe in god, mormonism had already been discarded from my life.

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Posted by: heartbroken ( )
Date: July 22, 2019 02:15PM

As a good little TBM I was so brainwashed the Mormon church could do no wrong. Then I went on a mission and my eyes were opened.

First red flag was how numbers were so important. It was as if the mission president needed his quota or he was in trouble. I was really seeing the corporate side of LDS Inc.

Then I remember being discouraged from converting refugees. There were a lot in the European country where I "served" and were the ones who would talk to us. I also felt that since missionaries were not allowed in the refugees' countries of origin, God was reaching them in a country where they could be baptized. They could then return to their country and convert people. The mission president and local members didn't see it that way...

It sickened me when the mission president and APs were so embarrassed by the low mission stats when the general authority visited. I remember thinking that I was not there to please the mission president or the general authority.

When I came home I tried to stay active in church but it seems that once I found fault with some of the practices, my mind kind of opened up and I found myself more critical of just about everything church related. After a while I just couldn't take it anymore. Once the toothpaste was out of the tube...

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: July 22, 2019 05:18PM

Women's issues: Pedestals vs. Priesthood didn't smell right

Temple: Creepy

JS's history: Once I read what they actually wrote instead of the Sunday sugarcoated versions, I realized it's what they don't tell you that was disturbing

Book of Abraham: That papyrus / mummy stunt was conman textbook

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: July 22, 2019 09:15PM

The temple was horrible and I blamed myself that I didn't feel comfortable. Sure, I went there on youth baptismal trips, but I always felt best after we left. I thought it might be better as a young man getting ready for a mission. I couldn't have been more wrong. At every turn, I did things wrong. I wore a short sleeved shirt. The poncho didn't fit and I was standing there naked while a group of temple workers walked in circles not knowing what to do. All the standing and sitting downs, the changing of robes, taking off slippers. The sash part of the costume fell onto the floor. I couldn't even see it in a dimly lit room. A cranky worker found it and flicked the back of my ear. "You never ever let any part of your clothing touch the ground."

The beating continued as the endowment continued. When I got to the veil, another worker noticed that my robe, sash and baker's hat string was on the wrong shoulder. My Dad was also done incorrectly. There was a meeting that lasted several minutes. All of the others waiting went ahead. It was finally decided that we both could proceed, albeit wrong. I had no idea what was whispered into my ear. It sounded like pig-latin to me. I anticipated the opportunity to sit in the celestial room. The room was empty. Only my Mom was there and when we went to sit down, we were told to move on. The workers took pride in shooing people out of the celestial room.

Aside from feeling uncomfortable in the temple, I felt compelled to lie and embellish church reports. Yes, inflating the numbers of church documents didn't sit well.

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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: July 22, 2019 09:43PM

Mormon Royalty
Writen by a Former Bishop:

Our family has moved a fair amount as a result of job promotions involving relocations to other cities. One of the things that we have noticed is that each ward and stake has it's own royalty as well as a middle class and of course the "less fortunate fringe". When you move into a strange ward, you are quickly classified into one of the groups and there is little chance of ever being elevated to another group although downgrading is possible. Any outward indication or confession of a personal or family problem justifies immediate downgrading. To achieve royalty status, one needs to have at least several of the following traits in their favor:
1. Personal Wealth (tithing numbered in minimum 5 digits preferred)
2. Pedigree (Descendants of polygamous ancestors)
3. University Education (BYU grads score top points here)
4. Professional status (Doctors, dentists, lawyers, or Church Education System...CES types can be forgiven their lack of wealth)
5. Utah like grooming and accent
6. Large gregarious family
7. Evidence of embarrassing fully Mormon culture...language, tardiness, music, dress standards, FHE
8. Relatives or at least friends in high places
9. An LDS Track record: Mission, temple marriage, etc.
10.Absolutely no hint of being a real person with real problems
11.the ability to sound incredibly sincere and to bring tears to your eyes almost at will

The Mormon Middle class may have some of the traits of Mormon Royalty, but are marred with such horrible defects as:

1. Witnessed drinking cola in public
2. Rooted for the University of Utah over BYU
3. Once received Church welfare or worse still public welfare
4. Stayed home to watch the Superbowl instead of attending Church meeting
5. Wife works outside the home
6. Kids don't attend seminary
7. Too many non member friends
8. Failure in a church calling
9. Unglamorous employment (factory worker, tradesman, sales clerk, etc.)
10.Convert of less than 10 years
11.Loud laughter

Then of course we have the fringe element, the poor bastards that everyone else can look down on thank God that they are so much better than the they are. The following are some qualifying traits:

1. Low economic status regardless of reason
2. Lack of formal education
3. Too much formal education coupled with independent thinking thus qualifying as a hated intellectual
3. Facial hair, unconventional hair cut, or the dreaded tattoo
4. A foreign accent
5. any hint of homosexuality
6. Mormon Fundamentalist views or sympathies
7. Read the SL Tribune instead of Deseret News
8. Non traditional modes of dress, men with ear rings or women with piercing in nose, eyelid, etc.
9. Buy lottery tickets
10.Question authority or ask embarrassing questions in a church class

It's interesting that as you move around that you can be perceived and categorized differently but there is almost no chance of any elevation if you stay in one place.

Royalty usually serve as Stake Presidents, Relief Society Presidents, Bishops, etc. The Middle Class are the ward clerks and Primary teachers, while the fringe are entrusted with such Holy responsibilities as Ushering. Occasionally a sincere Church leaders experiments with calling persons to positions above their class level and usually discover that they do just fine. However, the royalty types are generally very uncomfortable with the practice so it is seldom resorted to by those in authority.

A former Bishop from Canada

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Posted by: macaRomney ( )
Date: July 22, 2019 10:46PM

A scout master that was way too interested in doing his calling. He really liked to visit the boys everyday. I would hide but was forced to go along with it all. He later went to jail for indecent things.

Then a bishop who use to preach about obedience constantly. I was always getting lectured at. mostly for things like wearing a colored shirt.

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Posted by: alsd ( )
Date: July 23, 2019 03:10AM

I would say that for me, I never really "knew" the church was true. I was really always questioning it and hoping for it to be true. But I never got a confirmation, despite decades of trying.

What started me down the rabbit hole was reading an article on FB a TBM friend had posted which linked to the church essay on race and the priesthood. I read the essay and blindly thought that it seemed like a nice explanation. By pure chance, the very next day, while trying to do the right thing and read the scriptures with my teenage children, we read 2 Nephi 5:21. Right there, in black and white, in plain language, the Book of Mormon was directly contradicting the church essay. I had to read the scripture four or five times quietly just to make sure I read it correctly and had the context correct. Yep, without question, the church today directly disavows a Book of Mormon teaching, a teaching that is specifically mentioned at least four separate times in the Book of Mormon (2 Nephi 5:21, Jacob 3:8, Alma 3:6, 3 Nephi 2:15). Don't get me wrong, the BOM teaching is appalling by any decent standard. But the book cannot be called the "Keystone of our religion", and "the most correct book", while the church disavows its teachings. To me that meant one of two things, either today's church leadership has gone astray and they are false prophets, or the book was false and a fraud and the entire church is just wrong. It was trying to rectify that contradiction, between two official church sources, that led me to where I am today.

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Posted by: presleynfactsrock ( )
Date: July 23, 2019 04:04AM

My big red flag was the very disappointing temple ceremony. Seriously, this event was so not what the sales force advertised it to be AT ALL.

Was it spiritual? Hardly.

Was it boring, juvenile, insulting, comical, while also being abusive, manipulative and threatening? Yesiree.

Did it appear man-made stupidity? Yup.

Did it insult me? You bet.

I was attending university and the comparison of spending time in learning mind-blowing new information there with this so-called inspired and amazing temple ceremony (which I was told would lead me to the celestial kingdom) was laughable and nonsensical.

Sooo, I soon started reading Fawn Brodie's, No Man Knows My History and, with this amazing treatise of the conman Joseph Smith, Jr., my journey to discovery and truth and freedom had begun.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2019 04:09AM by presleynfactsrock.

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Posted by: kentish ( )
Date: July 23, 2019 03:42PM

The answers when I posed a question to the Gospel Doctrine class I was teaching. The question: Why, if we claim to be the one true church bearing the name of Christ, is he not the focus of our talk and attention the way he is in other churches?

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Posted by: cftexan ( )
Date: July 23, 2019 10:00PM

Like Dagny said above, womens issues and the temple. Im a strong feminist. Feminism has no place in Mormonism. Temple was a huge red flag, it was so culty. The final straw was Prop 8. I was out. I really couldn't care less about the history and other stuff. All I care about is their modern philosophy. Its so wrong, nothing much else matters in my

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Posted by: hgc2 ( )
Date: July 24, 2019 12:05AM

1. First time at temple before my mission

2. Fawn Brodie: "No Man Knows My History"

3. Book of Abraham origin

4. Book of Mormon description of God vs description in first vision. One God or three?

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