A mormon hobby.

https://www.healthyplace.com/abuse/emotional-psychological-abuse/gaslighting-definition-techniques-and-being-gaslighted?fbclid=IwAR3JPO8dcsKVzxdlBnCkRxbqZNkP4iwNIbY10R778X3gfpuRd0PQKVHG8Yk

I just printed off a copy of this article to give to someone I know.

Thank you, Susan!

Oh God yes...a Mormon cult strategy.

Beautiful explanation, thank you, I've got it bookmarked to share on demand.

I think "Doubt your doubts" is the perfect catchphrase for a narcissistic organization such as TSCC. I don't know who came up with that, but they must've been an expert gaslighter.

Edit: I guess it was Uchtdorf who said it, that's what the search box came back with. I can't believe a pilot would say that. It's like saying ignore your internal collision alert system.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2019 10:56AM by ptbarnum.

For some odd reason, I can't really understand the concept of gaslighting and this article confuses me even more.

It seems to emphasize another person's actions who is the gaslighter, like,

Withholding, countering, blocking, diverting, trivializing, forgetting, and denial.

But it also seems to list ways the gaslighted victim will feel such as,

Second Guessing, sensitivity, confused, crazy, apologizing, unhappiness, making excuses for another person's behavior, knowing something is wrong but no way to express it, lies to avoid put downs, trouble with decisions, you used to be more confident, feeling hopeless, wonder if you are good enough,...

At what point do we take responsibility for our own feelings?

At what point do we take action to cut ties with a gaslighter?

How do we know when it is me vs. How do we know when it is them?

You know it when it happens. Or at least, you know something is happening, just not exactly what. It has a different feel than a healthy relationship, but you have to have had at least one healthy relationship to know what healthy is supposed to feel like, so if you get gaslighted while young, it takes a lot if work to discern the feel of gaslighting, but once you do, you can spot it when it shows up again.

There's a difference between two regular people having an argument. Saying things like, "It's not me, it's you, dangit!" when we're angry is common. It's very normal to project a bit on the other person and we all want to win the quarrel for various reasons. Thing is, when normal people cool down they will usually see your point of view, apologize for the hotheaded comments,
and move towards compromise. A narcissist, a gaslighter, will only ever double down and double down again. They will go to the utmost extreme to win. No retreat, no quarter given. You will never be acknowledged as an equal and will never hear a sincere apology, nor will there be any acts of amends ever made by a gaslighter/narcissist. The best you can hope for once they cool down after a fight is that they will pretend the whole thing didn't happen.

Narcissistic gaslighting is usually very subtle and pervasive. It's not just ONE disagreement where you have to take all the responsibility and do all the repairs, it's EVERY disagreement. It's not even disagreements a lot of the time, it's that you are constantly undermined any time you open your mouth. Everything you do, everything you don't do. Your entire existence is reflected back to you as failure in some vague but very serious way. Your efforts are belittled, your feelings not just invalidated, your feelings do not exist until the narcissist creates them for you. You are not human to them. You are an empty automaton waiting to be filled with more of their essence. You are told what your feelings are. You are told who you are inside as if they are in your head with you, watching, judging. You are even told what you do and don't like, and somehow, you allow them to convince you.

Something deep down feels very wrong, but you are confused as to what exactly it is, and you feel like it's your fault you can't solve the puzzle.

Your question if "how do I know when it's them or when it's me?" is part of what keeps the gaslighted person still attached and willing to stay. It drives you nuts,this question, because as empathic people we are inclined to want to always acknowledge that every relationship is at least 50% on you, 50% on me, and most of us are willing to work hard and give more of ourselves than we expect back to resolve a conflict or get along amiably. A gaslighter is not like that. A highly narcissistic and manipulative person does not feel 50% accountable towards making things work. They feel owed, entitled, more deserving. They do not need to put forth effort, they are perfect.

If you look back at the pattern in the relationship and it has always been 100% on you instead of normal balanced accountability, if it started off with little things and grew to encompass your whole being, and if you just can't tell where you fit and are questioning all your decisions and even feelings and thoughts, then you're being gaslighted.

Edit: anecdote from my own experience. I was about 15, cooking dinner. Grease spattered and I burned my wrist, instant 2nd degree, blister forming while I ran it under water. My father told me to stop hollering. I said it hurt, he said it didn't. I asserted that it did. He said no, it doesn't, and punished me for "lying".

Mom took me to the doctor the next day. I had the burn dressed and the doctor gave me a couple of days worth of Tylenol 3 w/codeine for pain. My father flushed them in the toilet, because I didn't need pain meds for something that didn't hurt. I was sent out to split firewood for lying. As I split the wood, I felt bad for lying. I felt bad for feeling "fake" pain. But...it hurt, didn't it? I certainly felt something coming from my wrist and it was nagging and unpleasant...isn't that what the word hurt meant? I thought it hurt but then I thought maybe I was mistaken about what pain is. I thought I was really screwed up, because I must not be feeling the same things other people feel. I wasn't normal if at age 15 I didn't know what pain really is. And since I didn't understand pain, how could I be sure I understood anything?

I am crazy, I thought. I don't deserve to be free. I am a burden on everyone. After I was done with the wood, I apologized to my father and I really meant it. I was so sorry I didn't know right from wrong. I cried myself to sleep because I was such a disappointment to my parents.

That's gaslighting. If someone has done this to you, get away from them and get help.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2019 01:38PM by ptbarnum.

I have been in a relationship that has a few weird things happen. Have I been gaslighted?

1. Stories not adding up making me have feelings of mistrust, but I am never able to get to the bottom of it.
2. Questions put to the person about progress of certain promises are often answered in a way that they are annoyed by the question and I am told to just stop with the questions. Sometimes, it almost seems like this person senses that I will ask and preempts the question with some kind of drama to avoid the question.
3. As time goes on and the due date for the promise comes, I am told that they only told me they would do it because they didn't want to lose me.
4. When I said, it's now or never to fulfill the promise after giving in 3 other times, I am told that I am being manipulative.
5. Often, when I am questioned about what I am doing and I tend to give less details because I sense she will criticize the answers. When I act like this, I am accused of hiding something or being evasive, playing 20 questions.
6. A certain goal was agreed upon, in the relationship, but this person's actions, plans, comments were often contrary to what a person would do if they were working on the goal.
7. I often see her act dishonestly to other people in her life.

Yep. Especially #2, preemptive drama. Anything to circle the narrative back to them and their needs, away from yours. Anything to hijack the narrative so they either look like hero, or victim, or both. Anything to give them the control advantage.

Saying "I only lied and promised you to do this thing because I was afraid to lose you if I refused in that moment," is essentially, "I don't have any intention of acknowledging your needs, I lied so you'd stop with the chin music, and when you try to hold me accountable for lying, I am going to guilt trip you into feeling bad for making me feel threatened." Essentially, "look what you made me do."

Thus she 1. never has to keep her promises and 2. doesn't have to accept the consequences of her behavior.

If someone else does something wrong and you are made to feel like it's your fault they did it, and that you're bad for being upset by it, you are being gaslighted. If you feel instinctively that you are being taken advantage of but simultaneously don't trust that instinct, you are being gaslighted. If the person is generally a compulsive liar who always tries to slip through the net and won't take responsibility, you are being gaslighted, it is intentional, and they aren't going to change.

It hurts like hell, and you didn't bring the relationship to this point, but you can set boundaries and stop giving 2nd, 5th, or 125,000th chances. You will miss them and the good stuff you had, but you won't miss the crazy train. I strongly recommend professional counseling for anyone stuck in a relationship like this, it brings clarity and can help you make decisions.

+1 That "Look what you made me do," thing is the most telling. Everything she does wrong becomes your fault.

Holding your own with this type person is nearly impossible and can take a huge toll on you.

You can't fix these people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience---to paraphrase Mark Twain.

Good luck. Don't doubt yourself and don't let anyone make you doubt yourself. You are all you have in the end.

ptbarnum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You know it when it happens. Or at least, you know
> something is happening, just not exactly what. It
> has a different feel than a healthy relationship,
> but you have to have had at least one healthy
> relationship to know what healthy is supposed to
> feel like, so if you get gaslighted while young,
> it takes a lot if work to discern the feel of
> gaslighting, but once you do, you can spot it when
> it shows up again.
>
> There's a difference between two regular people
> having an argument. Saying things like, "It's not
> me, it's you, dangit!" when we're angry is common.
> It's very normal to project a bit on the other
> person and we all want to win the quarrel for
> various reasons. Thing is, when normal people cool
> down they will usually see your point of view,
> apologize for the hotheaded comments,
> and move towards compromise. A narcissist, a
> gaslighter, will only ever double down and double
> down again. They will go to the utmost extreme to
> win. No retreat, no quarter given. You will never
> be acknowledged as an equal and will never hear a
> sincere apology, nor will there be any acts of
> amends ever made by a gaslighter/narcissist. The
> best you can hope for once they cool down after a
> fight is that they will pretend the whole thing
> didn't happen.
>
> Narcissistic gaslighting is usually very subtle
> and pervasive. It's not just ONE disagreement
> where you have to take all the responsibility and
> do all the repairs, it's EVERY disagreement. It's
> not even disagreements a lot of the time, it's
> that you are constantly undermined any time you
> open your mouth. Everything you do, everything you
> don't do. Your entire existence is reflected back
> to you as failure in some vague but very serious
> way. Your efforts are belittled, your feelings not
> just invalidated, your feelings do not exist until
> the narcissist creates them for you. You are not
> human to them. You are an empty automaton waiting
> to be filled with more of their essence. You are
> told what your feelings are. You are told who you
> are inside as if they are in your head with you,
> watching, judging. You are even told what you do
> and don't like, and somehow, you allow them to
> convince you.
>
> Something deep down feels very wrong, but you are
> confused as to what exactly it is, and you feel
> like it's your fault you can't solve the puzzle.
>
> Your question if "how do I know when it's them or
> when it's me?" is part of what keeps the
> gaslighted person still attached and willing to
> stay. It drives you nuts,this question, because as
> empathic people we are inclined to want to always
> acknowledge that every relationship is at least
> 50% on you, 50% on me, and most of us are willing
> to work hard and give more of ourselves than we
> expect back to resolve a conflict or get along
> amiably. A gaslighter is not like that. A highly
> narcissistic and manipulative person does not feel
> 50% accountable towards making things work. They
> feel owed, entitled, more deserving. They do not
> need to put forth effort, they are perfect.
>
> If you look back at the pattern in the
> relationship and it has always been 100% on you
> instead of normal balanced accountability, if it
> started off with little things and grew to
> encompass your whole being, and if you just can't
> tell where you fit and are questioning all your
> decisions and even feelings and thoughts, then
> you're being gaslighted.
>
> Edit: anecdote from my own experience. I was about
> 15, cooking dinner. Grease spattered and I burned
> my wrist, instant 2nd degree, blister forming
> while I ran it under water. My father told me to
> stop hollering. I said it hurt, he said it didn't.
> I asserted that it did. He said no, it doesn't,
> and punished me for "lying".
>
> Mom took me to the doctor the next day. I had the
> burn dressed and the doctor gave me a couple of
> days worth of Tylenol 3 w/codeine for pain. My
> father flushed them in the toilet, because I
> didn't need pain meds for something that didn't
> hurt. I was sent out to split firewood for lying.
> As I split the wood, I felt bad for lying. I felt
> bad for feeling "fake" pain. But...it hurt, didn't
> it? I certainly felt something coming from my
> wrist and it was nagging and unpleasant...isn't
> that what the word hurt meant? I thought it hurt
> but then I thought maybe I was mistaken about what
> pain is. I thought I was really screwed up,
> because I must not be feeling the same things
> other people feel. I wasn't normal if at age 15 I
> didn't know what pain really is. And since I
> didn't understand pain, how could I be sure I
> understood anything?
>
> I am crazy, I thought. I don't deserve to be free.
> I am a burden on everyone. After I was done with
> the wood, I apologized to my father and I really
> meant it. I was so sorry I didn't know right from
> wrong. I cried myself to sleep because I was such
> a disappointment to my parents.
>
> That's gaslighting. If someone has done this to
> you, get away from them and get help.

This!! Couldn't have said it any better.

Reading this post took my breath away. I didn’t know what the term meant. Thank you ptbarnum for this explanation.

At what point do we take responsibility for our own feelings?

As soon as possible.

At what point do we take action to cut ties with a gaslighter?

As soon as possible.

How do we know when it is me vs. How do we know when it is them?

If you’re not sure if it’s you or them, go ahead and cut ties. You’ll be doing one of you a big favor

This, absolutely ^^^

He blamed them for making the temple "too secretive" thus driving away the youth. Couldn't be farther from the truth when you were told to never discuss any aspect of the temple and its rituals.

Fine, Bednar, let it all hang out. Show dead dunking in all its thrilling detail, show wash/anoint shindigs with the geezers you've never met. That'll really drag the kiddies in by droves. No, he doesn't mean it, he just wants to lash out from on high and found a pretext, which is what gaslighting is all about.

So...I have a youngish daughter that really doesn't recall events correctly. I wouldn't have worried if it was one or two, even three events, but it seems that she remembers her whole childhood as though she was in an alternate reality. I don't want to come across as gaslighting her, so I ignore the inconsistencies. Should I be worried?

I think it wouldn't go amiss to bring it up to a doctor and ask if it's developmentally appropriate. It depends on age and the types of events, I think. One of my sons has temporal lobe epilepsy and it messes with short term memory on occasion, but he takes a daily pill and it's all good. You can probably just call and ask the doc whether they think you ought to bring her in.

The doctor will want to know if you are talking about misremembering events that did or didn't happen, such as, she has memories of the giraffe when we certainly did not go to the zoo, or we did have a picnic and she doesn't remember. They will also want to know what the onset and the duration are, like how long after an event happens does her memory change, and is it very durable or does she come around when you stimulate memories of what actually happened.

It's really nice that you don't want her to feel gaslighted, it's important for a kid to feel like they can trust their perceptions. You just also have to keep an eye on the perceptions.

One more thing. In my experience of gaslighting, it wasn't just the manipulation and feeling crazy that hurt. It was the intent behind it, the sadistic enjoyment he got out of the absolute control. There was always an element of ridicule involved, he made it clear he thought I was pathetic, stupid and weak. He was laughing at me, at my pain, at how easy I was to turn into his little parrot. A parent who is kindly working with a child to remember and sequence the world properly is 180 degrees in the other direction, and even if she argues with your version of events, she will instinctively understand your good intentions. That is what matters most, I think.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2019 11:03PM by ptbarnum.

PT, thank you for your clear and compassionate description of gaslighting. I've been there, too. I didn't even realize what was happening. My best friend had to point it out to me.

I'm not sure if I will ever be able to forgive the person who did it. As far as I know, he does not regret what he did, so why should I forgive him??

Ugh this got posted before I finished, sorry it didn't make sense, let's see if the edit works. :-)

Thank you! I am glad it was clear. I have been asked IRL to explain gaslighting a few times and I found I really struggled to define it, to get the right words in the right order so both myself, and the person I was explaining to, were on the same page.

Part of the problem is that gaslighting is so sneaky in itself, like you said, you don't even recognize it, a lot of times someone else has to point it out and it can take many forms.

About forgiveness...I wrestled with the idea for a long time, i was told by many that I wouldn't see real progress in my personal healing until I could truly "let go" by forgiving my abuser, a la Jesus. Sorry folks, I said, Jesus-level compassion and absolution is setting the bar miles too high for me in regards to my father...the best I can get to is, if I was told by the government that I had a free pass to do anything I wanted to the guy, right up to public execution on national TV, with no consequences whatsoever...

I wouldn't do anything. I'd just walk away. That is, from the deepest part of who I am now, literally the best I can do. Sorry not sorry if that isn't good enough for other interested parties, because I've come to believe forgiveness, in the case of things that are egregious violations of human dignity, is just baloney.

There...that looks more coherent.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2019 02:06PM by ptbarnum.

Great video about gaslighting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOph-dPpjrQ

This one's more my style:
https://youtu.be/moX3z2RJAV8

Star Trek. Captain Picard is literally gaslighted, tortured to see five lights.

But there...are...FOUR...lights.

ptbarnum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This one's more my style:
> https://youtu.be/moX3z2RJAV8
>
> Star Trek. Captain Picard is literally gaslighted,
> tortured to see five lights.
>
> But there...are...FOUR...lights.

Grammar Nazi time - shouldn't it be gasLIT?

Both are correct according to the Almighty Internet.

https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/the-past-tense-of/gaslight.html

My therapist and support circle all use 'gaslighted' and I am not going into group time to tell a bunch of people who have been shamed and told they're wrong all their lives that they're conjugating their neologism wrong...I'm thinking I might lose popularity points on that one.:-)

Gaslighting is all in your imagination. Don't worry, you'll get over it with my help.

ROFL, sure, sure...and you take PayPal, I bet. :-)

If you want to experience a good example of gaslighting,try this. If you are a regular watcher of Fox news, watch CNN for a while. If you're a regular CNN watcher, watch Fox news for a while. In each case, you'll see a bunch of people who seem to be the authoritative experts, smugly telling you how crazy and invalid your perceptions are, while telling you what they want you to believe. This isn't a political post. It goes equally in both directions.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2019 08:37AM by azsteve.

azsteve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you want to experience a good example of
> gaslighting,try this. If you are a regular watcher
> of Fox news, watch CNN for a while. If you're a
> regular CNN watcher, watch Fox news for a while.
> In each case, you'll see a bunch of people who
> seem to be the authoritative experts, smugly
> telling you how crazy and invalid your perceptions
> are, while telling you what they want you to
> believe. This isn't a political post. It goes
> equally in both directions.

The best thing I did is to stop watching TV news. I occasionally read newspapers and online stuff.

The amazing thing is that my friend watches news channels obsessively, and yet I seem to be better informed than him. Not only do I know all the stories he hears about, but also a number he doesn't.

I would mention several non-US news channels but that wouldn't go down well.

I don't think TV news is very informative, unless you think a group of people barking at each other, and heavily edited content, is actually "informative".

The key thing is to learn to read between the lines. Anyone who tells you there are only two choices in life is usually lying, but there are exceptions to that too.

Good article.

One little thing to add. Only people that know you well can do it to you. They use what they know, what you have shared with them, against you.

Exactly! It's why I become so paranoid around my sister and her family. I know anything I say will come back to haunt/bite me.

AND I was going to say by my "husband." But the leaders come first. Dealing with them was such a mind fuck, I did get married to him to get them out of my life. After he left me, oh my hell!
Somehow I worked 2 jobs, raised 2 kids all while he was telling me I was crazy (along with his boyfriend screaming at me saying I'm crazy. They wanted to take my kids from me, so they were trying to drive me crazy, but I survived somehow. It was hell. I should never even speak to him again and yet he lives here with me. He is different now. He knows he lives here only because I allow it and if he does anything to mess me up, he'll be out of here so fast. I didn't get child support or spousal support. I did it myself even with all the abuse.

Those 2 kids I raised mostly on my own turn 34 today.

No wonder I feel like I live in different realities. My current boyfriend I feel was gaslighting me recently, but I saw it for what it was and called him on it, shut him out of my life for a month and he came back begging. I have made him go to my therapist with me so that he can learn not to do what he just did to me. He did it when we first got back together and we were in a long distance relationship.

Mormonism taught me well how to be the "victim." I've always been the one in my family who took care of everyone else and they ALL come to me when they need me and I take them in. And some of them see me as the one they can use and abuse. The others appreciate what I've done.

I really believe mormonism taught me a lot about being the victim of gaslighting. I wish someone had a movie of what they put me through. I can't explain it if I tried. The leaders put me through. I realized recently the reason I burned the letter from Boyd Packer is because it was so abusive that I thought maybe I was the person he told me I was and all I did was write a heartfelt letter asking about my gay boyfriend and if there was any hope only for him to be OKAY. And he made me feel like the worst person who ever lived and I only let ONE person read it as I felt like such a worthless human being by what he told me and he didn't even know me. My husband never even saw the letter.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2019 09:37AM by cl2.

I gave this to a young relative who is going through a nasty divorce and her relationship has been a text book example of the gaslighting from what I have seen and heard. He actually said, "I only lied because you made me."

I think she may have had her eyes opened for the first time. I am hoping so because she could easily cave and go back. Mormons. Lots of small children already.

So thank you Susan I/S. This gives her a real chance I would say.

"I only lied because you made me."

OMG! Yup yup yup. Or it's cousin, "I only lied because I didn't want to make you uncomfortable/upset you". And of course it is YOUR fault that you are uncomfortable or upset. And a warning, I only lied can turn into I only hit you because you made me very easily. This, unfortunately, is where gaslighting can end up. Gaslighting can also be used to divide you from your support system and that is exactly what abusers want/need.