I have a question that possibly is not helpful to have an answer to, but I am asking anyway.

Very often in converstions, my husband argues with whatever feeling I express or statement I make.

He reminds me of the (not biologically related!) granddaughter whose pediatrician said that among other things, including ADHD, she manifests ODD--oppositional defiant disorder.

I have heard the phrase, you would argue with a gatepost.

He also seems to think it is his duty to point out the flaws in whatever has happened. "Good job," is rarely in his vocabulary.

Also, the most quick on his feet to make excuses and find a way to make whatever is happening someone else's fault I have ever seen.

When I have tried to talk to him about it, he pulls a scripture "there must needs be opposition in all things." to justify this.


so my question is: is this actually a Mormon culture thing? For the "priesthood holder" to think it is his duty to correct evrything his wife and children do? To basically say, "I told you so," or "I would have told you how to do this right if you had included me."

This opposition in all things (being the devil's advocate!!!) all the time?

Is this a Mormon thing? Or is this just him, using a scripture he's managed to find as a justification for behavior that is not normal, even in Mormon culture?


(On the other side of things, by the way, in actions he is faithful, compassionate, takes care of things that need to be done even when he is exhausted or sick, serves others as if that were the joy of his life.)

Thanks for how kindly and compassionately you have always taken time to answer my questions and those of others who post here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2020 11:22AM by relievedtolearn.

Personality. I have many in my life like him. One is my older sister. Since I was a young child, I've always been wrong and I'm 62 and she's 63. We don't talk much or have much to do with each other anymore. I just got weary of it. I started standing up to her and she didn't like it.

I have a few men in my life right now. Both my "husband" and my boyfriend have always corrected me. I finally got to the point with my husband to just say "It was me" if I hear him bitching about anything in the house like somebody put the tomatoes in the bowl wrong or dishes in the dishwasher and I'd yell, "It was me."

My boyfriend is quite intelligent and he knows it. He could always have done something better. The thing that is hilarious is watching my "husband" and him tell each other how to do things. I'm not divorced for "business" reasons, but he is gay so it isn't an issue.

My kids and I had to learn to use dark humor with their dad, my husband. We've had to find the humor in the insanity. My kids and I find humor in the relationship the boyfriend and husband have. We just laugh behind their backs.

You can't win an argument with him about these things. As someone told me years ago with kids--pick your battles. Don't let him get you involved in arguments that aren't any big deal because you won't win. Take a stand on things that REALLY matter. Let him be the "smart" one and you can just stand there and listen and know he is full of shit.

Boy I have a good attitude toward relatioships, but it isn't just the men in my life. As I stated, my sister did it and does it, too. She has been the most difficult person I've had to deal with in my life especially since I was in school with her. I only had 6th, 8th, and 12th grades to not have her bullying me. I only chose to get along with her at all costs because I loved her kids so much and still do. They are in their 40s.

It isn't personal, although I know it feels like it. Don't let his personality problems make you feel less about yourself. I would assume he does love you a lot. Even my gay husband loves me a lot. Can't live without me in his life for some odd reason. I can't live with my boyfriend. He is SO territorial. Talk about arguments over petty things like where I moved a paper to when I cleaned his house. Now I make him pay me to clean as he still wants me to and he isn't allowed to say anything about his mess I move around to dust.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2020 11:32AM by cl2.

Thank you for the new term. ODD. And it means odd. Yay!

You have company, my dear. We are not supposed to diagnose ourselves or others but I am going to make an exception this time since you hit the nail on the head for me and I am diagnosing right now and nobody is going to tell me I can't.

I cannot say anything that isn't cut off or corrected. All comments are negative and when protested am told they were joking so you can't argue back without looking like a fool. He always knows better. He was always right.

No this is not a Mormon thing. I am talking about someone who was never religious and didn't know what a Mormons was until they met me.


This morning I said the shut-down was probably going to last 12 weeks. And all I got was a very firm, "You Don't know that!"

Uh, the word probably was in there, dear.

He asks questions long enough until he finds something he can disagree with - saying I'm lying, etc.

I always think "He cuts off the legs of those around him so that he can appear taller."

I love that phrase --to appear taller.

I always use, "Blowing out others candles so their own appears to burn brighter."

I get the same thing from Mrs. Boner. It’s not a priesthood thing, it happens when a spouse takes a religious “I’m better than you” morally-superior high ground. It’s also passive-aggressive behavior from both our spouses.

In my case I let her finish the “here’s the right answer/way you should think” and then say something like, “Im an adult and don’t always need to be contradicted or corrected when I express an opinion. I don’t do it to you. Please stop doing it. Thank you in advance. If you want to discuss something, then let’s discuss it, but please don’t talk down to me.”

She generally backs off for a while. But, when it happens again, I remind her, “I thought we agreed not to interrupt to just contradict, if you’d like to discuss, I’m all ears.

What I’ve done is to assert my rights and to not play the passive-aggressive game. Think in advance how you’ll call him out on his passive-aggressive “opposition in all things” ending-conversation-bullshit. You don’t have to be mean or angry, just direct and assertive.

It’s really hard whenever a spouse thinks they’re superior to the other in any way. Passive aggression is potentially deadly for relationships. Very best wishes!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2020 11:44AM by BYU Boner.

Horay!! I'm not alone !!

I suspect we are all married to the same person. I think mine has had the actual diagnosis.

He disputes every single word I say. Every Word.

Finding snappy come-backs is now my art and passion.

Snappy comebacks:


1. If you were a prosecuting attorney, we'd have a better house.

2. You're not a cop, and I'm not a suspect.

3. You're correct. I'm just a cheerful liar.



... I'm sure I'll have more by the end of the day.

The quickest way to end an argument is to stop being a willing participant. However, I did use my sarcasm to the utmost when I was married to my ex. He was uber critical with the pettiest things.

More than once my ex would be head deep in the fridge and yelling from the next room "Where did YOU HIDE THE KETCHUP?"

I would respond "Its with all the other condiments dear, look on the shelf."

More moaning and yelling, "I don't know why you can't just come here and get it for me since you didn't put it in an obvious place."

I would calmly reply back "Im glad to see my evil plan worked and that my mastermind plan to hide ketchup in a 12 ft square space has ruined your day. Now is the time for me to throw my head back and laugh my mad scientist laugh."

He couldn't respond after that because you just can't have a battle of wits with an unarmed person. ;)

Nowadays I just disengage. I live in another state now, but he if he rarely tries to be passive aggressive with me on the phone or emails, I just don't respond. Im too busy being peaceful and happy.

No matter what my response, HE is not going to change. So, I just put my energy into stuff that makes me feel calm and happy.

RMM

I'm going to offer a few insights based on my experience working with the occasional ODD student over the years.

My opinion is that ODD people fear a loss of control over a particular situation. So whatever you can do to help them feel in control (not of you, but of the situation,) will help. You can do this by offering choices whenever possible, i.e. "Would you prefer A, B, or C?"

Another piece of advice (that I learned from a previous sales career) is that you want to offer no more than three choices. Any more than that has the potential to confuse and upset. One choice should be perfect (logical, sensible, well-suited, etc.,) one should be close but not as good as the first choice, and one should be clearly wrong. In this way you steer the other person into hopefully doing what you want them to do.

I hope this helps!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2020 12:27PM by summer.

relievedtolearn Wrote:
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> Is this a Mormon thing?

I believe it is a human ego thing. Our selves when left to rule us are creatures of conformity, hierarchy, and compassion.

Our egos often require the belittlement of others to feel higher up in a strange sense of "hierarchy."

I'm really trying hard to stop my ego from running my conversations with my wife because it ruins them. Oh, when I'm critical of others it goes great but when we have critical conversations we make it all about us and them and how they compare poorly to us.

I'm trying. Not giving into my ego often ends the conversation quickly because the gas has gone out. And fyi, Mormons are great at gaslighting. Their problem is they need gas. If there is no fuel from another ego's attempts at protecting itself their attempts will often fail.

For example, when my family talks about how I don't like some FB post of theirs all gushing church I don't let it get to me. I merely admit I didn't like it. Nothing more to say. If they tell me when I'm critical of the church it hurts them I admit that it does but I don't apologize for it. Do I like being the bad guy? No. But the alternative is to let my ego get lit and then the fires will burn hotter.

I am quite sure my inactive non-believing TBM wife learned this behavior. She is such a contrarian, that in conversation the other day I finally said, "You know dearest, almost everything I say, suggest, or opine is met with a contrary oppositional response. I could say, the sky is blue today, and you would say, no it's not it's more grey...it gets so old, please stop for Gods sake. Just try not place a negative spin on everything." Her mother is exactly the same way, except very very negative and pessimistic. I would say my wife "learned" this mode of behavior from her mother, but then again I am not perfect either - I am just not oppositional and contrary, but I am sure my wife would tell you my personality deficits.

At least you don’t have to live in his head. He does. The blame game is an excuse to not see the other side. Mormonism is a religion of excuses. Excuses to be bad, excuses to be good. Being justified is a big deal. What the cheese and crackers?

It would be so nice if we could see each other through God’s eyes. Or maybe not, if it’s Mormon “I’ll get you” God.

Thank you all.

I think I need to hone up my own sense of compassion and humor both.

It's not like I don't have my own list of qualifications for civility. sigh.

Human ego. Yeah.

One day I had the insight that if we did not feel a responsibility to either judge people or fear them---what freedom that would be, to enjoy people and enjoy being alive.

Through what each of you has said here, I think I need to focus on that idea for myself---and being a whole lot more lighthearted and less judgmental of the stuff that currently triggers me.

THANK YOU.

"He disputes every single word I say. Every Word."

I would seriously like to know why you would stay with him.


As to the OP, I'm probably often seen as a contrarian by my wife. It is a challenge to keep my mouth shut. Problem is I've spent decades studying different subjects and trying to figure out how the world works. She is content to watch her cop shows and do crafts.

My studies include an advanced medical degree, but when I offer my opinion on my wife's medical problems that she sees some quack for, I'm told to shutup. So then she'll spend a year or two spending money on an assortment of remedies, to eventually admit they don't work.

She wanted me to shutup when I shared reality about the church, but she eventually sided with me, probably to keep me happy. She'd probably be just as happy being TBM.

So I've decided education and knowledge are a curse - ignorance is bliss. Not sure why we spend trillions on education.

I realize I don't know everything, which is why I try to figure things out. Many people seem to think they know everything, so they don't want to hear any more. Or they just want to follow some "expert" or guru or church leader without thinking.

But I'm trying to accept that being wrong is okay. I can be wrong. Church members can believe stupid stuff. People can believe dumb stuff in society or in government. I'm trying to let my kids do the dumb stuff I did, instead of warning them or teaching them. Most the time they don't want to hear things.

We've shut down the schools for the virus, and I'm thinking we could leave them closed and we'd all be happier. School doesn't seem to keep people from following all the scams out there, and you can learn math online.

free man

It sounds like you would like conversations with your wife.

I can tell you that I used to want and expect that with my husband; I am now working on my part in what has happened over years to make pleasant, fun conversations very rare----which is me learning to be really, really clear that how he acts is probably not about me at all, and that I don't have to pass judgment, or have all the little secret rules inside my head from growing up in my own dysfunctional family trigger resentment and disappointment.

I am in the middle of learning---not there yet, but valuing this precious man and our relationship enough to work on it.

Meanwhile, though, since each of us lives inside the bubble of our own worldview, and can be quite blind to why someone might react to us the way they do, let me offer a few thoughts from my point of view.

If at any time ever, your wife expressed an actual opinion, or how she was feeling about anything---May I suggest you LISTEN--learn the art of listening.

Learn to reflect what you think she means--as a person who really wants to know what she is thinking---and see if you have misinterpreted. Learn phrases like, I'm not sure I understand what you are saying: is this what you mean? Or, Wow that's interesting; tell me more. Of, I am not sure I understand what you mean, can you give me an (another) example. Oh, you mean.....

You can say things like, Wow, that sounds hard if she expresses fear or pain. Or, wow, how wonderful, if she expresses joy or interest.

You can also couch differences of opinion by syaing things like, Here's what I think. What do you think. (and then if she responds with what she thinks, for goodness' sake, do not USE it to bulldoze her down. Just express how interesting it is that there can be such differences of opinion.

In other words, listen, Do not have the point of your conversation to be to prove that you are right and she is wrong.

One other thing: in case you do this, I can assure you, it does not help:

Do not say outrageous things to needle her, and then claim it was a joke. And do not turn things she says to you that could be an open door for intimacy and sharing into a pun or joke.

Not everyone is a born debater: some of us have been raised to find that kind of conversation very threatening, or bad manners, forbidden.

In case you are truly wanting to have interesting conversations with your wife, make sure you are not bulldozing her, trying to "win" a debate that she's made clear is not fun for her.

Relievedtolearn, I’m surprised nobody has called out your husband’s mean and condescending behavior toward you for what it actually is—verbal abuse. You say he serves others as if it were the joy of his life. This is characteristic of abusers. The outside world wouldn’t believe the putdowns he throws at you in private. They think he’s wonderful. Meanwhile, you walk on pins and needles and give in to his control to keep the peace and maybe your safety. Has he ever been physically rough with you in any way? If he has, for sure there is verbal abuse present. The danger for you is this—He will never let you thrive!

If this makes any sense to you, you might be interested in a helpful book, The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans. One suggestion, don’t flash it around in front of him.

He is a Narcissist. He has no empathy and only cares about being right. He gives no validation. He does things that "look" compassionate because he cares about what other people think. Underneath that charm he is selfish and manipulative.

I've wondered about narcissism. I've wondered if I am that way too. I know it matters to me to be right. But I think not so I can keep someone else "wrong" and feel better---at least, not always.
As everyone on this board has surely been through the wringer on this one---believing things that are not true does matter. Each of you--and me too---have been willing to risk and pay to learn what is real and true, winnow it out from the false. And I assume that most of the time, it's been worth it.

Conversation that explores what is or is not true is a good thing. Bulldozing in the guise of conversation is something else.

I've wondered about gaslighting too. Subtle, applied with skill---keeping the "other" unbalanced. argh.

I am wary of labels; I find that I as well as others are a mix of real compassion and also selfishness, fear, ego, etc. I am especially trying to be aware of ego right now.

Your thoughts help give some outside view and stability.
Thanks again, y'all, for your insights.

PS
Adult of God nli

He has never been physically rough.

What is happening is more aligned to something someone has called "intimacy anorexia." Afraid of being alone, needy of validation-marries---yet does things to prevent real intimacy.

I intend to thrive, and let the chips fall. I have to say, this makes it more complicated and difficult than I had ever expected. But I will do it.

THANK YOU.

I started doing something that has really helped. Just before we go to sleep, I ask DH what I did today that he really loved. And I tell him the same thing.

Like, (me to him) you didn't argue with me when I bought the half-gallon jar of mayonnaise at Costco. You grabbed me out of the way of bees swarming the maple tree I was trimming.

(Him to me) You made me the nicest breakfast. You bypassed stopping at the nursery because you knew I really had to go to the bathroom.

We've done that several nights now, and the relationship has gone back to 1980 when we first met.

I think this pattern will stick. He still calls my dogs bad names, but that's something they will have to work out with him.

At least you don't have to live in his head.

My "husband" once told me that because he had to live a double life at the time and keep his identify private as being gay, that he felt he had to control everything else around him as he had no control of that part of him. THEN I got it. It doesn't mean it doesn't drive me nuts. He is much better than he used to be, MUCH MUCH better. I'm sure things we do still bug him, if the house isn't perfect, etc., but then his area is questionable. I've never seen such an organized closet, etc., but he never dusts. One of his old boyfriends asked if it would bug him if he dusted and I said, "yes." I'm probably the only one who can get away with it. Or his daughter could get away with it, but she just writes in the dust whenever she happens to be in the area.

My daughter and I have argued for years. You can ask the board. She decided to become TBM and she knows how I feel. She used to confront me--usually while I'm sitting at my desk where she has my attention. She did things so many times to hurt me and she did try to control me. Finally, my therapist pointed out to me, "This is Kiara. It is a pattern. Realize that this is who she is and learn to not react to her." That was 1-1/2 years ago and we get along a lot better. There are times I want to tell her what I think and I have chosen not to. I had to learn a long, long time ago I don't have to be right in a conversation. That doesn't mean I don't KNOW I am like where the church is concerned. She hasn't lived my experience. Maybe mormonism "works for her," but I see cracks. She posts mormon stuff on fb and WE NEVER DISCUSS THEM. EVER. Mormonism is off the table even when she brings it up. I just listen and ignore. I don't have to win.

As Dr. Phil says--and again I know not everyone likes Dr. Phil, I have a harder time with him these days, but I love some of his statements like, "Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy." He says, "You're a right fighter." Who cares who is right.

I type medical records and I have so many people say things to me like "stint." My dad had to have 2 stints put in his heart. And I'm sitting here thinking, "That would be STENT." I just let it go. My boyfriend about fell off his chair when I pronounced a medication that he had been wrong about for years when talking to me, but I was talking to my brother at the time. He was great about it.

But I choose to not live with my boyfriend for these reasons. I'm too old to deal with that bullshit anymore. My husband doesn't dare do things like that to me now as I'd kick him out. I paid for most of this house (he pays more than his share now). He is actually much more pleasant OUT OF THE CLOSET than in it.

Like my therapist said, this is how your husband is. If you want to stay in the relationship, you have to learn that it doesn't work to react. I can't believe the difference it has made with my daughter and there is no way in hell I'm divorcing her, although I've thought about it before.

My boyfriend actually prefers I don't live with him, although for a long time, he kept bugging me to live with him AGAIN. His mother said that he is her most difficult child to live with and wondered how I made the decision not to live with him anymore. I told her I watch his actions rather than what he says. He doesn't want me there all the time. My therapist told me that if he asked me to move in again to tell him I'd have to make a list of my demands before I'll in. My therapist predicted he would never bring it up again and he hasn't. ha ha ha

How does your husband handle his own flaws and mistakes? Does he admit them as well and handle them graciously? Does he deny making any mistakes or oversights? If he makes an error, does he also blame someone or something else for the problem?

Does he seem to "keep score" or your (or others) mistakes even if they happened years ago?

Does criticizing ANY flaw seem out of proportion to the reaction?

How does he handle empathy of others pain, hurt, grief?

What does he expect with respect towards himself? You mentioned he rarely says good job, but what does he expect in praise or reward even for expected tasks or reasonable social behaviors?

How does he expect to be treated during illness or injury?

There is a very good chance your spouse is a narcissist, which I have seen in MANY of the men who "Lord" the PH over their wives.

RMM

RMM

Yup, yup, yup, and yup.

So am I being false and manipulative when I dish out praise, do not express my real opinion and feelings in order to avoid criticism of them, etc.
causing cognitive dissonance in myself that is poisoning me?

argh.

Lot invested here. And labels are not people. argh argh argh.