If their remains are or are not buried next to a loved one or spouse?

It only matters to the living.

Roy G Biv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It only matters to the living.


It's just like funerals, they are for the living, not for the dead.

thedesertrat1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If their remains are or are not buried next to a
> loved one or spouse?

No.

Tevai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> thedesertrat1 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If their remains are or are not buried next to
> a
> > loved one or spouse?
>
> No.
Tevai you are dead right So why th preoccupation with the issue?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2020 04:20PM by thedesertrat1.

thedesertrat1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tevai you are dead right So why th preoccupation
> with the issue?

Because this specific issue can be indicative of a much larger issue:

What is any person's obligation to someone who has died?

If THEIR prejudices are involved, are YOU [the survivor] bound by their prejudices, or their ignorance?

If they obtain your promise to "do" something [could be anything], and you [either then or later] find it unwise, or it trangresses your own sense of right or wrong, are you bound by that promise?

When IS such a promise binding after the death of one of the parties? For example: If "you" promise to take care of the minor child of the dying person, after the death of that person, are you free to say: "Nope--I've thought about it and I just don't want to do that"?

In real life, there are often no easy, and sometimes no apparent, answers to these kinds of questions.

I know of a real life situation where a dying widow obtained the "out of nowhere," "by surprise" agreement from a female friend of hers to take care of her several minor children "if [I] should die." The problem was: Not only was the female friend's husband not any part of this agreement (and he was totally ignorant of this promise until after the other woman died), neither was any legal paperwork (which would have served as notice to the husband of what was going on) initiated, let alone completed.

Several months later, the woman did die, and she died with NONE of the arrangements even begun which would have obviously been necessary in such a situation.

The husband said to his wife: "YOU made this promise, not me. I cannot do this. I will give you our house, I will give you all of the money we have, I will give you everything I have and leave with just a suitcase, if you decide to go through with this--but I will not be a part of it. This is not MY promise, and I cannot take on the responsibility of [this other woman's] children."

This was a really difficult situation for everyone even tangentially involved, and eventually a sort of clumsy, ad hoc arrangement was made so that the minor children were not homeless, and the woman who made the promise to her dying friend was able to keep her marriage and her family intact--but she definitely broke the promise she had made to her close, and actively in the process of dying, friend.

In this kind of situation, what was the "right" thing to do?

These can be some of the most difficult decisions a person ever has to make in their lifetime.

What I have learned is: Every situation is different, and "honor" and "integrity" can, in these kinds of situations, vary quite considerably depending on the specifics involved.

In my own life, I broke a promise I made to my dying aunt because, after her death, it did not seem "right" anymore--it seemed empty, and unwise, and no one still alive cared anymore.

I think I did the right thing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2020 04:54PM by Tevai.

There are some people I would comfort with an empty promise.

There are some people I would do everything possible to fulfill my promise. For them and for me.

How about the opposite question? Would you ever ask for a promise as death approached?

thingsithink Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How about the opposite question? Would you ever
> ask for a promise as death approached?

Not unless there was something important that I, myself, had failed to do when I was physically able to do it.

The only examples I can think of are repayment of a monetary loan, or getting something I had borrowed (a valuable book, etc.) back to its rightful owner.

His last words, according to Plato: "Crito, we owe a cock to Asclepius. Do pay it. Don't forget."

Some say this had a metaphorical meaning, but nevertheless if Crito didn't do it (either symbolically or literally), his conscience would have plagued him. I think that's true for everyone, despite any superficial rationalizations.

I think it matters while they are alive.

Death is inevitable. But some things like where we're buried, how our effects are distributed or how much brandy will be served at our wake gives us some illusion of control.

Adding our own terms to our final state can be very important.

Part of that can include hoping we're not forgotten. Being buried in a family plot can give some piece of mind to some people that for a small time, they may be remembered, hopefully fondly.

Personally I asked to be cremated and my ashes sent off to be compressed into a diamond. Said diamond to be set in a pendant and given to my Granddaughter.

Same price as a burial, but hopefully my memory will be with her for many years.

How can you be sure it's really your ashes ?

There is a regulated company back east that performs this servuce. Basically taking your ashes (carbon) and creating diamonds. Many creamatoriums across the country will send your ashes directly to them.

They also do the same for pets.

A more recent service they offer takes strands of hair from brides and grooms. Burns them and adds material as needed then creates a diamond for engagement rings.

Of course there is no absolute guarantee.

If a man offered me his hand in marriage along with his “grandmother’s diamond,” I’d be verrrry suspicious.

It is my fervent lifelong wish to *not* be buried. I've always had a horror of it. I know it isn't logical as I'll be dead and won't know but the thought of it is anathema to me. I'm not crazy about cremation either, due to a fear of fire as far back as I can remember. I read recently about an option to be "melted" (in water mixed with acid, iirc). It only takes a couple of hours. Also not immensely appealing. But rapidity has its positive points. With cremation I'm not sure if teeth survive. I especially don't like the idea of my teeth sitting around without the rest of me alongside. If that happens, at least I hope I'd be grinning.

I would also hope that even if whoever ends up putting into effect my final arrangements doesn't know the reasons for my wishes they will honour them.

That's different than asking people to make promises that weigh them down and turn out not to be practicable or doable when the dust settles (literally, ha).

I believe strongly in "keeping the faith" with someone. I would make promises if asked, if I felt I could carry them out. I would try to be honest in that regard. But it's easy to pontificate, different when you are asked and don't want to let someone down, in the moment they ask or after they pass away. I would make every effort to fulfill someone's final wishes (hopefully, they would be doable for me). When my father became ill suddenly and knew right away he wouldn't survive he made sure I knew that, no matter what, he did not want his ashes to be scattered overseas in England where he was born. I'm glad he told me as our natural assumption would have been that he *would* want that. He only asked me once to ensure it didn't happen and I acknowledged to him once that I understood but I felt that it was a fervent and unbreakable promise. We didn't get a chance to discuss it in depth. The only reason I can come up with for his intensity in this request is that he wanted so much to leave England and come to Canada and he had made his home and life here so England no longer felt like home. Or else he wanted to be here on this side of the pond so his family could "visit" him. Those are the only ideas that leap to my mind to explain it. But for me, not knowing why wasn't a reason to override my promise to him. Unfortunately, his 2nd wife did ignore his request and took her half of his ashes back to a hillside in England. We were left with the other half. Sounds a bit gruesome. But anyway, maybe in the end it turned out to be fitting as he spent his life on both continents and had roots on each. I had an idea to scatter Dad's ashes in a forest in Scotland. I thought he would have enjoyed that as he loved trees and he and I spent a lot of time when I was a kid tramping through woods. But I did as he asked and kept at least half of him here in Canada. I will never know his reasons but am glad it was not an onerous request and was one I could honour.

Life can be tough from birth to death and, for survivors, beyond. Too bad but that's the way it seems to be.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2020 10:55PM by Nightingale.

Having your ashes made into a gemstone?

I now know what the song means when people aren't sure what your wife sees in you but she sees a diamond!

If you look at this topic from the paradigm of a believing mormon, it can matter a lot, especially for the dead person's surviving family members. Mormons believe that after Christ returns to the earth and the millenium occurs for a thousand years, that men with the priesthood will literally be able to go down to the local cemetery and use their priesthood to resurrect their loved ones. When I believed in the church, I always assumed they would go throuh the church to know who and when to resurrect someone based on how god wanted to see things take place, according to some planning or which side of the veil someone should be on in the moment. But some people have images in their minds of joyous graveside family re-unifications taking place during the millennium as the dead come back to life and step out of their graves, to be greeted by their loved ones. That is a little more difficult of course if grandma had her ashes scattered in to the ocean, or if your mother was buried a thousand miles away. I can just see some discussion taking place on the other side of the veil in some cases. Man:"Now, don't be too pissed. But I was buried in Texas. I'll get on a plane and will be there when you wake-up. But I have go a few weeks ahead of you to make that happen". Woman:"you mean that you chose not to be buried next to me?". Meanwhile, the church is saying to the family "We need to bring brother Jones back a few weeks earlier, before we bring back sister Jones. Buy the airline tickets right away to get better pricing. Don't forget to apply early to the state for their certificates of resurrection and to have their driver's licenses re-instated".

One odd mormon belief is that no one should be cremated because it is more difficult to resurrect a cremated body than it is to resurrect a buried body. My never-mormon sweetheart laughed hard the first time I told her that one. Like god finds some tasks to be more difficult than others.

So no, it doesn't matter to a non-believer. For those who believe, it can matter a lot.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2020 12:08PM by azsteve.

No. I will be toasted to a cinder..not what I promised my dad before he died. Circumstances change. My ashes will be interred next to my wife's. Our daughter will join us whenever.

https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/history-culture/article/This-week-in-in-1977-socialite-Sandra-West-was-7528939.php
Speaking of burial wishes, I read about this the other day in a magazine. I had to look it up to see if it was true. Some socialite requested to be buried inside her Ferrari and then buried with it. She threatened her husband's brother, whom she left her money to, that he wouldn't receive it unless he complied to her wishes.
Weird, I don't remember this.

It will matter to their relatives and descendants.

It made me feel good to know I followed through on my mother's wishes to be buried and not cremated. To not have a funeral. To not have even a burial service. And to not have anyone see her after she was dead. It especially made me feel good because my NPD sister wanted all things opposite my mother's wishes. Sis basically just wanted to be in control.

BUT...I knew my mother very well and if any of it had been too expensive, too much of a hardship on anyone, or impossible to carry out, she would have been fine with a Plan B. She trusted me to make the best decision.

I also wish to be buried rather than cremated but for a different reason. I love science and research. Possibly someday far far in the future it will be helpful for scientists to have the undamaged remains of people from my era. They may need to know what killed me. What chemicals were in my body. what foods I ate. What different diseases I suffered. Maybe they would like to clone me. I also do not wish to be embalmed for the same reasons. BUT if there is a good reason why I should not be buried, or if it's too expensive, or there are new laws enacted, I won't give a flying leap. I'LL BE DEAD!!!

It matters to the person before they are dead. Why my mother wants to be buried next to my dad when he did something so fuckin cruel to her with his burial wishes, I’ll never know. He told her he wanted to be buried in Utah (they lived in California for over 50 years and he had no connection to Utah) because he got manipulated into thinking more people would come worship at his grave there. He was so narcissistic that he needed to think kids and grandkids would come out there all the time. I doubt they do, at least not like he thought they would.

But the fallacy was that it meant his wife of 65 years would never be able to visit his grave. It was all she could do at 90 years old to make it to the burial. And it should not have mattered how many grandkids lived closer. He should have cared about his wife. But he never gave a shit about her when he was living, dont know why he would change. My mother could have kept their original plans after he died. But the Mormon in her believed she had to obey his wishes. It broke my heart in pieces last year when I visited her and she started sobbing crocodile tears and crying, “I wish I could go visit Dad. Why did he do that to me?” Umm, because he was an asshole? (I bit my tongue and didn’t say it). But she still wants to be buried next to him. It will be another pain getting the coffin there. My brother drove my dad’s coffin from CA to UT. But since we promised her we’d bury her there I’m sure we’ll do it.

I do take comfort in where I want my ashes spread and thinking of eternal rest in the warm desert sun. However, I will never know if my wishes are carried out anymore than my parents will know where they ended up getting buried or who comes to visit. I guess it just matters whether the living person needs the reassurance and whether the survivors feel an obligation to abide by any promises they made to carry their wishes out.

NormaRae, you can eventually have your mom cremated, and then have the container of ashes buried. That's what we did with our mother when she died at some distance from my father's grave. It's much easier that way, and future generations will never know the difference.

That would be the practical thing for sure. But my family is hardcore mormon, with all the superstition that comes with that. They need the whole ritual with the body stuff, including burying a casket. I just accept that and am glad people know I don’t want that for myself.

I was really surprised that my mom specified that she wanted to be cremated, since she was old-school Catholic. In Catholicism, it was traditional to be buried intact, although I think things have changed in recent years.

I will be cremated. I used to think that I wanted my ashes scattered, but a part of me likes the notion of being buried in the same cemetery as my parents. So I will have to give that some thought.

I do know that for some people, it is cathartic to see the body looking peaceful and at rest. That's pretty expensive therapy, but sometimes when someone has suffered, I guess it helps. Morticians can make anybody look peaceful with all that formaldehyde and layers of makeup. They might not look like themselves, but they will look peaceful.

And sometimes it's just a religious thing. Mormons need to see their loved ones in their temple garb and do the pulling the veil over their face or putting on the baker's hat thing or put stupid stuff in the coffin with them or whatever. There have been people who have died in the past 3 months who only had a few very close family members at a funeral--people who otherwise would have done the full-blown funeral with a casket thing. Some of those will do a memorial service when they can and I think they'll see how wonderful it is to just celebrate that person's life and it might make a difference even in how mormons choose to do funerals.

I guess it's just the kind of friends I have now (intellectual and progressive), but I've probably been to a dozen funerals in the past 15 years and only one that wasn't a cremation. That was my Mormon Aunt. And the memorial services have been so beautiful and real tributes to the person and celebration of their lives without all that viewing, bringing the body in and out, closing the casket, procession to the cemetery, and other dreary stuff. I could never imagine purposely choosing that now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2020 06:02PM by NormaRae.

I was with my mom as she died, and that was more than enough for me. I'm glad that she had me with her. The paramedics tried to revive her, but I knew that she had already departed for good. The last time I saw her was in the hospital ER. I asked if they could remove the intubation device, but I was told that it had to remain in place so that a physician could check the paramedics' work. That was hard. But my biggest regret -- and you might find this odd, and rather funny -- was her hair.

At the time, I was working (more than) full time and taking care of my mom when I got home. I cooked for her, helped her bathe, etc., did her hair, and so on. A couple of days earlier I had washed her hair, but was too exhausted to curl it. I figured I could do that at a later time. That later time never came. So there I am in the ER staring at her clean but uncurled hair that was swept back from her face. There was an odd sense of dignity about it. She looked a bit like a prehistoric woman, and I mean that in a good way. But I still wish I had attended to her hair.

Such is life. My mom wanted cremation so that the maximum amount of her inheritance could be passed along to me. She wanted to provide for me. Prior to her death, she ordered my brother to make sure that I used the money to buy a home. And he did just that. I had a good mom, a good dad, and a good brother and sister-in-law. I have been very fortunate.

Summer, your story is very close to mine. My mother's nails had grown very long and I had a hard time finding someone who would come to the nursing home to give her a Mani pedi. After a long time searching, I found a very nice lady who did a great job of doing Mom's nails without hurting her. It wasn't long after that she died. I was so grateful I was able to get that done.

Also, after never having said this before, Mom mentioned a few weeks before she died that she would like a blanket placed over her at death so she wouldn't be cold. I found that odd as she never spoke much about her after death wishes. I had gotten a blanket, before she said anything, that had her alma mater on it because I wanted it to cover her when they took her out of the nursing home. Many times I had seen shabby, worn out quilts covering the deceased and I did not want that for Mom. Her hair had not been permed for a long time so, after mentioning not wanting to be cold, I brought one of my winter stocking caps and placed it on her head. That took care of the cold and her uncurled hair as well. I also put a warm scarf around her neck.

May Mom rest in warmth. It doesn't much matter to her but it makes me feel better that I did those things. Now I know why people cling to rituals. They are comforting.

All that you so lovingly did for your mother is wonderful, Pooped.

Right now, I have tears in my eyes.

Summer and Pooped, your stories really touched me. I live so far away and know I probably won’t get those tender moments with my mom at the end. They are special. I try to savor all the times I do see her now. Because at 92, I never know when the last time will be. But right now she’s going strong for her age and is loving having the cutest great-granddaughter (and her parents, but they’re not the important ones) living with her and taking care of her. We’re lucky in that regard.

For those in this thread who feel inclined toward cremation for one reason or another, the following video might be of interest. Years ago I was in the funeral home featured in this video and met one of the persons mentioned in it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCBZ918FPGA

My father wanted to be cremated and put in a teddy bear on my mother's bed and in her casket.

My mother didn't want him cremated nor in a teddy bear, but she herself didn't want to be buried.

Ultimately, I got them to agree to being side-by-side in an above-ground crypt.

My father died last year. My mother may die at any time, and I'm hoping that she doesn't die of Covid, because I don't want anything to get in the way of their being next to each other.

So, yeah, I helped them to reconcile their wishes, but ultimately, it'll be on me to see that they get to be carried out appropriately.

Tyson

If you believe in the continuance of life. LDS geneologists claim to experience 'some''contacts' when doing 'work for these people'.

Since, I do believe in this after death communication I asked why this occurred an got that 'they' are happy when 'anyone' remembers them or goes out of their way to make them more 'memorable'.

In other words you really don't have to do geneology to get these experiences just try to remember them and think about what experiences you enjoyed or what you would say to them ---- by that you are making contact, at least one way.

thedesertrat1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If their remains are or are not buried next to a
> loved one or spouse?

Presumably not though who can say for sure. As others have commented, anything we do for the dead is actually being done for the living, which sounds like a cliche but is true. People have been burying or otherwise disposing of their dead ceremonially since at least the Neanderthals, 30,000 years ago, if not earlier.

Some of what we do for the dead is for our own sense of closure, as it's considered an important part of the healing from grief processes, especially in cases where death is sudden or unexpected. Funerals are also an opportunity for community and family members to gather and sometimes work out things with each other. When a key family member or friend dies it tends to rearrange other relationships in the group, especially if it's a tight-knit one.

If you didn't care for the deceased or have no relationship with any of the relations or friends, or are disaffected, then of course it won't matter to you but then you probably won't be involved in the events.

thedesertrat1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If their remains are or are not buried next to a
> loved one or spouse?
I was at my wife's side when she died from lung cancer.
My friends and family came up with $7,000. to cover the outrageous funeral expenses. And at that it was cheap I found out later. I would like to have my body buried next to my wife's body but I will be dead and it won't matter to me.
When you are here you are here.
When you are gone you are gone.
Forget ressurection! I don't belive that will ever happen. It is another mind control tall story!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2020 06:55PM by thedesertrat1.

thedesertrat1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> thedesertrat1 Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------
> I was at my wife's side when she died from lung
> cancer.
> My friends and family came up with $7,000. to
> cover the outrageous funeral expenses. And at that
> it was cheap I found out later. I would like to
> have my body buried next to my wife's body but I
> will be dead and it won't matter to me.

My mom died a few years back (in fact I made the decision w/the doctors' advice to pull her life support) it was just her & me in the immediate family so I just got a $600 cremation.