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Posted by: Phantom Shadow ( )
Date: September 25, 2021 12:18AM

An in-law, not a Mormon, said goodbye to her son today. He was already gone. He had a heart attack and could not be revived. He was 44.

Bringing me back to my own grief. I don't believe I will see my son again. I don't believe in another life in a future existence. Yet I am back. So how does a former Mormon live with with loss and grief?

I want to offer words of comfort, but I cannot say how I feel.

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Posted by: Kathleen ( )
Date: September 25, 2021 12:37AM

Phantom Shadow, I am so sorry you lost your son, and you inlaws lost theirs.

My brother lost his son, and we’ve found my brother out in his aluminum chair during lightning storms.

My heart hurts for you.

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Posted by: Phantom Shadow ( )
Date: September 25, 2021 01:09AM

Thank you. This has hit me hard tonight.

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Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: September 25, 2021 01:11AM

Words are failing me too. Just know I am thinking of you and giving you a big hug.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: September 25, 2021 01:34AM

then also there are those of us who have lost living family & friends bc of Mormonism and the MindF**k it is....

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Posted by: Greyfort ( )
Date: September 25, 2021 01:46AM

I'm sorry to hear of your family's loss.

I've been quiet for the past month because my family is dealing with such a loss as well. I'm watching my atheist Mom dealing with the loss of her son, and I am struggling with the loss of my brother.

Alcohol finally won. He was 59. :o(

One thing I'm finding that's really annoying me are the comments of, "He's in a better place now." Oh, really? *sigh*

I think the best things to say are simply that you're sorry for their loss and let them know that if they need someone to talk to, then you're there for them.

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Posted by: Tyson Dunn ( )
Date: September 29, 2021 10:44AM

Of my relatives who have recently died, my father would not have wanted to leave my mother and siblings behind, nor my father-in-law his wife and children.

And I feel very certain that my mother-in-law would not have wanted to leave her children behind and nor did she even have time to grasp what was going on.

Would any of them be happy without the people they most closely loved? I sure as hell think not.

Tyson

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: September 25, 2021 08:08AM

So sorry to hear that, Greyfort. It could have been me, but I managed to stop. Why me and not others? I don't know. I suspect every case is similar but very different. Condolences to you.

Tom in Paris



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2021 08:08AM by Soft Machine.

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Posted by: nli ( )
Date: September 25, 2021 03:44PM

For those of you who have recently lost loved ones, you have my sympathy.

I know what you are going through: I lost my sister to suicide, and my 55yo son to suicide (both very faithful TBMs). There is nothing one can do or say or think that eases the pain of their loss. I found that simple acceptance of what I can't change helps soften the grief. Perhaps it sounds crass, but "don't cry over spilt milk" is good advice. Take comfort in whatever good memories you have of them.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: September 25, 2021 03:57PM

me: All of us here hope you're comforted, Shadow; many of us also hope for a better existence / 'afterlife', but we know that the exclusive LDS / Mormon rendition of it is far, far from reality.

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Posted by: pollythinks ( )
Date: September 25, 2021 05:22PM

My sincere condolences to you.

When my husband passed away, I didn't cry--because he had lived a long and good and healthy life, and we were happily married.

Also, much earlier, I noticed an ad in the paper for 4 lots for what I certainly would not be able to afford even one today, and bought them.

And yes, at such a time, it was very helpful, financially, too at least not have a heavy financial burden along with one's grief.

My children have gone to visit the plot, but it is just to sad for me, to do so.

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Posted by: Greyfort ( )
Date: September 25, 2021 07:13PM

pollythinks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When my husband passed away, I didn't cry--because
> he had lived a long and good and healthy life, and
> we were happily married.


My Mom has been devasted since my Dad died four years ago, but when we lost my brother last month she said, "This is so much harder!" I said, "Yes, it is."

We figured out that's the difference. My Dad was taken care of at home, by us. He had a good life and lived to be 87. He died surrounded by family and love. My parents were married for 66 years.

But my brother was found alone, naked, surrounded by bottles and feces. It's so much harder to process emotionally.

Thank you for the condolences to anyone who shared them, and my deepest condolences also go out to anyone who has lost a loved one, especially recently. It's a difficult time to lose someone when we're already emotionally weary from this pandemic.

*HUGS* to all.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: September 25, 2021 08:34PM

I am sorry, Phantom Shadow.

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Posted by: Phantom Shadow ( )
Date: September 25, 2021 11:35PM

Thank you all for your comments. Loss is inevitable if we live long enough. Greyfort, you are right.Covid has made it worse for many reasons. My parents came of age during the Depression and WWII. They had a much darker view of life than I have had. Right now I think I must have grown up in an age of happy optimism--I believed the world was getting better and better.

And then there was the afterlife--Mormons weren't supposed to lose themselves in grief. We'd be together in the next life.

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Posted by: Greyfort ( )
Date: September 26, 2021 02:32AM

My Mom is 93. She has been through the Depression, a World War and much more. But she talks about the pandemic saying, "I've never been through anything like this." That's saying a lot when you're 93 and you've seen so much.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: September 26, 2021 12:15PM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2021 12:15PM by anybody.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 26, 2021 12:24PM

Me too with no words.

I am so sorry for the excruciating pain you have been through, all who have lost their most dear.

It is far and away the absolute worst experience. Absence makes the heart grow fonder they say. But absolute absence hurts the heart like nothing else.

I wish there was something healing that could be said. But all I've got is I'm sorry. Even though we don't know each other in the flesh we can commiserate with the heartache.

Take care, everybody. I hope there are happy memories that can give a moment's peace here and there.

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Posted by: Gordon B. Stinky ( )
Date: September 26, 2021 12:38PM

Phantom Shadow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I want to offer words of comfort, but I cannot say
> how I feel.


When my wife passed away 4 years ago, the wisest, most profound thing that anyone said to me was, "I know there's nothing I can say or do that will change anything, but just know I'm here for you if you need me."


I'm sorry for your losses, Phantom Shadow (and everyone else too).

When I was in my twenties, my brothers and I had to decide to discontinue treatment on our mom, and let her go. She'd been ravaged by cancer. Still, it's not an easy situation, or decision.

When my mom passed, she was only 50. Everyone said, "she's so young." At the time, 50 seemed old to me, but my wife was only 45 when she passed, so now I definitely get it. My mom had a long struggle with alcohol, which she ultimately won, but then she lost a cancer battle that she couldn't win anyway...

I also lost a brother to suicide. He'd fought depression most of his adult life, and made a few earlier attempts, and was finally successful. After-the-fact, it was surprising how much he'd managed to hide though. His life and circumstances were harder than I'd even known, and it was heartbreaking to realize and wish I could have done something. If there's any silver lining re. my brother, he left this life on his own terms. And I think that requires some courage.


I guess what I'm saying is that I can empathize. When it's time, it's time. Sometimes it seems less "fair" or appropriate.

I do now appreciate the old adage: only the good die young. I don't know what that means about me, perhaps a chance to get good! But I do know that the three most loving, kind, and caring people in my life are gone, and they all departed this life early.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 26, 2021 12:56PM

Beautiful post, GBS.

>the three most loving, kind, and caring people in my life are gone, and they all departed this life early.

I wish I knew what to say but.. no words.

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Posted by: Gordon B. Stinky ( )
Date: September 30, 2021 02:06PM

Thanks, Nightingale

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Posted by: Greyfort ( )
Date: September 26, 2021 05:25PM

Gordon B. Stinky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I also lost a brother to suicide. He'd fought
> depression most of his adult life, and made a few
> earlier attempts, and was finally successful.


I'm very sorry to hear that. My Mom's Mom committed suicide. I've seen the effects of that act my whole life.

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Posted by: Gordon B. Stinky ( )
Date: September 30, 2021 02:05PM

Suicide can definitely be hard on those left behind. My brother's daughter already had a hard life (her mom, my brother's ex, had many issues that made life difficult for their daughter).

She's struggled with his absence since he's been gone.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 27, 2021 11:23AM

"If there's any silver lining re. my brother, he left this life on his own terms."

Strong sentiment. It is demonized by many religious people as weakness where it is ultimately a power to decide.

It is a decision and an ultimate one in my opinion. Regardless of all the bad press, I was impressed by your words. We live in a society where death is absurd. It is very hard to counter that sentiment. Our culture would rather people be in pain until their no longer have the power to decide and just wait for their end.

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Posted by: Gordon B. Stinky ( )
Date: September 30, 2021 02:44PM

Thanks, Elder Berry. Death can be somewhat absurd. Modern medicine can sort of change the natural order of things, in both positive and negative ways.

I had just typed up a bunch of stuff re. my late wife's treatment, but it's drifting away from the condolences nature of the thread, and it's also upsetting me, so I'm gonna put it aside, Maybe I'll start a separate thread if I can gin up the emotional energy to re-address it. :(

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 27, 2021 02:32PM

Gordon B. Stinky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If there's any silver lining re.
> my brother, he left this life on his own terms.

I have always thought that the Christian condemnation of suicide is the ultimate enslavement. Yes, there are a lot of people who kill themselves in despair, depression, mental illness and they should be helped as much as possible. But there are also healthy people who decide they don't want to endure extreme pain and indignity concomitant with, for example, old age.

I remember during my darkest days as a Mormon, wishing that I could at least consider "snuffing it"--as that book about human autonomy so memorably put it. I never seriously considered suicide, but the thought of it was liberating and I resented the way the church tried to deprive people of even that form of individual freedom. Would a loving God insist that his children endure unnecessary torture voluntarily? I think not.

I may well take that road if my last months or year or two of life become an unnecessary trial for myself and inevitably my family. And yes, I do think that people like your brother exhibit a sort of courage in their circumstances. No one understands the suicide's thoughts, his emotions, his reasoning, and no one should denounce them as weakness or irrationality.

What is human freedom if it does not include the right to choose not to play the game?

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 27, 2021 04:53PM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is human freedom if it does not include the
> right to choose not to play the game?

If a human right exists, it will be the one to end the game of life.


Thanks for putting way better when I tried to say about this.

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Posted by: Gordon B. Stinky ( )
Date: September 30, 2021 02:56PM

Thanks, EB and LW. I also do not understand the demonization of suicide. FWIW, my brother was a devout Christian. According to my sister-in-law, he'd done a lot of research and concluded that it was not going to keep him from heaven, and even said he'd prayed before doing it (per a note he left). In a lot of ways, I think committing suicide is analogous to a mercy killing, in which I wouldn't think either killer or the killed would/should go to hell, so why should it matter if the killer and the killed are the same person? I hope he found the peace and place he was looking for.

Anyway, again, I don't want to derail the thread, and it's also running my battery down...

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: September 26, 2021 08:49PM

It seems the more we love others, the more grief we are potentially setting up for ourselves to experience. Still, we choose love.

I can understand people who withdraw from others as a way to avoid encountering the pain of losing loved ones.

Death and the loss it can cause is hard to accept.

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Posted by: Gordon B. Stinky ( )
Date: September 30, 2021 03:00PM

These topics came up in my grief support group. Everyone experiences grief in different ways, of course, but apparently the magnitude or depth of one's love for the other can impact the magnitude, depth and duration of the grieving process too.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 27, 2021 11:31AM

Phantom Shadow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't believe
> I will see my son again.

You see him because you grieve. My mother wanted my father to die while he was failing with strokes for years. Now that he is dead she still talks to him. I don't know if she loved him much but I would like to think she did.

If I survive my wife I will talk to her. We are entangled with each other even with the inevitability of death. Nothing beyond losing ourselves and memories, not even death, can take that away.

A look, a smile, even listening to their hurts, frustrations, and sadness. These things are written upon our hearts.

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Posted by: cl2notloggedin ( )
Date: September 27, 2021 11:59AM

especially the young. I can't begin to imagine what it is like.

As far as talking to them, Elder Berry, I talk to my parents all the time. They've both been gone 13 years and I still talk to them. It helps me. My boss asked me when her father died if it ever gets better and I told her, "No, it just gets different." I still have a hard time going to our family home. My brother lives in the house and it is pretty much as they left it. Same pictures, same flowers (they come up every year).

I also feel that suicide takes someone strong as I would have liked to leave many times, but I am not courageous enough to do it and my kids need me. I became suicidal the day my future husband told me he is gay. I was 25 years old. I've always been suicidal and I couldn't do it out of fear. I do know someone close who committed suicide and I do consider them much stronger than I am.

This life is really no picnic. Timothy who used to post here brought up the subject that people who have kids do it out of selfishness. I had to agree. I would never give up my kids, but I regret bringing them into this horrible world. I wish I could save them from what even I brought into their lives. I hate the idea of leaving them behind, which I'm sure eventually I'll have to do.

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Posted by: blindguy ( )
Date: September 27, 2021 01:01PM

CL2 wrote in part:

"My boss asked me when her father died if it ever gets better and I told her, "No, it just gets different.""
When my dad died in 2001, my mom asked one of her long-time friends about coping with the loss. The friend's response? "It'll always be with you, but it gets easier over time." That has been certainly true with me, and, I believe, with my mom as well.

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Posted by: Gordon B. Stinky ( )
Date: September 30, 2021 03:12PM

Like I said above, I do think it takes courage to be able to do it, but there are many compelling reasons not to. The biggest single reason is because you/me/we MATTER! Life is not the same without us.

As I pointed about above, my niece's life has been impacted drastically by losing her dad. I think a couple others pointed out the same.

My sister-in-law was crushed when my brother did it. She said the only thing stopping her from doing the same was raising her kids. They need her. She matters in their lives.

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Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: September 27, 2021 01:54PM

I lost my wife in 2017
I will probably always miss her
Although I am open to it I have not found a woman to companion with

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 27, 2021 04:55PM

There is nothing like sharing my life with another person. I hope you find it again.

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Posted by: nadesa ( )
Date: September 29, 2021 08:39AM

My condolences to each one who grieves the loss of someone near and dear to them.

I'm just past the 3rd anniversary of my husband's death and then our anniversary. That's always a difficult time. August is not a good month for me.

There is so much wisdom in this thread. Thank you for sharing.

It's been a VERY long time since I've read and posted on this board. It's good to see a few familiar names again and know this board is still helping people. Mormonism reared its head in my life this summer and I'm working my way through that minefield. I might just drop in occasionally and check in.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 29, 2021 10:22AM

Like a flu, cold, or rash. Like the analogy.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 29, 2021 03:29PM

nadesa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

I'm sorry for your grief, nadesa.


> Mormonism reared its head in my
> life this summer and I'm working my way through
> that minefield. I might just drop in occasionally
> and check in.

Please do.

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Posted by: Greyfort ( )
Date: September 29, 2021 10:18AM

My condolences, nadesa. Anniversaries are always the most difficult days.

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Posted by: Tyson Dunn ( )
Date: September 29, 2021 10:46AM


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