All of my 32 great-great-grandparents were converts to the church. Some lines came through 18th Century America; some were 19th century converts from Europe. Considering the statistical chance of those parental lines converging to produce "me", I ponder what if any particular circumstance in my generational past had been different.

If one great-great-grandmother had refused to come to America? If great-great-great grandfather had been killed in the Revolutionary War in which he fought? If one great-grandfather had stayed in England continuing as gardener for the Manor house where he was employed? If one great-grandmother had divorced great-grandfather when he chose to take a second wife. If BY hadn't sent another great-great-grandfather to help settle a remote area of Utah.

For any of you with a similar Mormon heritage, where in the grand scheme of things would "you" be had your generational past been different?

If you believe that you have a "soul", perhaps you would have been born to a different set of parents. Personally I have no belief in a "soul" so I can only consider whether or not I would exist at all.

Anybody?

Interesting but you will drive yourself crazy thinking too much about the past. Some good friends I had, adopted two children and I saw them in Phoenix on a business trip. They were both adults now and had become extreme anti-abortion which is fine but they wouldn't let it go. At one point, one of them said, "If my birth mother had an abortion, I wouldn't be here". Exhausted, I retorted with, if she had been hit by a bus, you wouldn't have been born either. They finally shut up.

I don't plan to "drive myself crazy" thinking about it. To me, it's a philosophical question: Who are we?

BY sent my great gradnfather to colonize in So. Arizona when it was a territory

It's all about contingency, just like with evolution. If such and such didn't happen, something could have played out differently.

I don't believe in souls going here and there, so I just happily accept the conditions that brought me to who I am, Mormon or not.

Everyone was born somewhere. Everyone probably wonders about what if things. What if mom had married that other guy? What if that car hadn't crashed? What if Grandpa stayed in Sweden? It's fun to think about. It's not fun to think about 5 generations of my relatives who were stuck in a cult. Maybe it was the best they could do.

At any moment in any branch of one's family tree, things could've been different. The tiniest of details, down to which sperm fertilized which ovum. What if great-great-great-great-great grandpa had just been too tired that night to force himself on great-great-great-great-great grandma?

What if spirit children are the cause of raging boners popping up from out of the blue?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2022 08:39PM by bradley.

After my "gay husband" left the first time, everyone would tell me, "Well, at least you got your 2 kids. You wouldn't have them or they'd be different than the ones you got."

My attitude is that they were always mine. If I had married Darrell instead of the sperm donor, they might have looked somewhat different, but they'd still be the ones that were supposed to be mine. I should have married Darrell. (Was dating him seriously, but I was too caught up in the insanity of my situation and I didn't have a lot of self-confidence that it would be different for me.)

I had a ggg grandfather who got caught up with Napolean when he took the troops to Russia on his quest to conquer the world, there were thousands of soldiers who some how got caught up in this scheme of taking over Germany, England, and everything in between, well the war of 1812 didn't go so well for France (God bless them) and tragically he was one who froze in Moscow, well the family orphans were impoverished for generations until finally they decided to try their luck in New York via Elis Island, but the trouble with that plan was when they finally got here on a boat full of illegal aliens in the 1880s there was a pandemic and the boarder was closed,... yikes! (I'll save the rest of this horrible story for another day)
Any unlucky accident can befall us at any time.

Do you know where he came from in France, Maca?

Two things. Ellis Island didn’t open until 1892. Second, there were no “illegal aliens” in the 1880s, at least not from Europe. I’m pretty sure if you showed up and were passably healthy, you were admitted.

"Second, there were no “illegal aliens” in the 1880s, at least not from Europe."

Tell that to Geronimo.

Was Geronimo an "alien?" Was he "from Europe?"

I think he means the "aliens" hurt Geronimo. So he would have been happy if they hadn't been allowed in. Or something like that.

That's a good point.

Which pandemic are you referring to?

What closing of the borders are you referring to?


The fact that these just look like your usual political posturing makes them all the more dubious.

Tyson

If you believe that the universe is deterministic, then its entire history--including the existence of every one of us--was set indelibly from the beginning.

  

Do you favor any certain belief/theory as to the source of consciousness and what constitutes the "self" we all experience?

This is just me. No religious, philosophical, or scientific discipline to support it.

I believe that what we know as consciousness is simply an accumulation of memories, thoughts, impressions, experiences, learning, all stored upon an inherited scaffolding of structure in the brain, interconnected through trillions of neurons, connections that have almost an infinity of possibilities for awareness.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2022 04:26PM by auntsukey.

>
> an inherited scaffolding
> of structure in the brain,
> interconnected through
> trillions of neurons, con-
> nections that have almost
> an infinity of possibilities
> for awareness


... and then Alzheimer's steals it all away ...

There are studies that indicate 'spirituality' slows the progression of Alzheimer's, but absent a study involving identical twins, how do you compare/measure the progression of the disease in a geriatric population?

This is why the 12 drew straws on who would put the pillow over his face...

You heard me! Read this NYTimes obit and tell me I'm wrong... I'll quote you the relevant part:

"Harold B. Lee, president of the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter‐
day Saints, died of lung and car-
diac failure at the age of 74.
He had entered a hospital run by
the Mormon church here around 3
P.M. for a routine annual checkup
and died there about 6 hours later."

https://www.nytimes.com/1973/12/27/archives/harold-b-lee-president-of-mormon-church-dies-leader-of-33-million.html


Has any religion attempted to explain the role of Alzheimer's in the Eternal Progression?  But they, religionists, have to know that it makes ghawd look bad.

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> But they, religionists, have to know that it makes
> ghawd look bad.


But there are so many things about reality that make ghawd look bad, which is why ghawd created religionists: to make ghawd look good ... or not so bad!

Yes sir...  "Reality" is defined by the observer.

auntsukey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is just me. No religious, philosophical, or
> scientific discipline to support it.
>
> I believe that what we know as consciousness is
> simply an accumulation of memories, thoughts,
> impressions, experiences, learning, all stored
> upon an inherited scaffolding of structure in the
> brain, interconnected through trillions of
> neurons, connections that have almost an infinity
> of possibilities for awareness.


That's what I have come to accept as well. So if anything about my inheritance were altered before "I" came into existence, I don't believe "I" would exist.

Maybe a stone mason in Warwickshire. Or a farmer in Cheddar. So probably some lower middle class hack in Birmingham.

A genuinely randomly shuffled deck of cards ( which turns out to be far more difficult to arrange than one might think, story for another day ) is so statistically unusual, that it is more likely than not that the particular arrangement of cards in that randomly shuffled deck has never occurred before in human history, not just in that deck, but in any 52 card deck ever.

Fifty two factorial is a very very big number.

The statistical shuffle to create a human ( or any entity with two parents) is vastly more complex. We are, genetically, experientially, ancestrally, a one of a kind. The number of ways we might not have come into existence is effectively infinite. Yet like that shuffled deck sitting on the table, here we are.

Of all the atoms in the universe, a small number are currently organised together as Me. Everyday some of these leave my body and are replaced by a few others. The ones in my brain set themselves up into cells of certain kinds through which electrical impulses can pass, giving me the impression of having a mind, or even a soul. These cells become harder to maintain as the atoms come and go over time.

There’s no Mormon lineage in my family history. Except for the dolt (that would be me) who leapt into their font before looking hard at their history and theology. I didn’t pass it on to anybody though so no harm done in that regard.

dagny said: “It's all about contingency… If such and such didn't happen, something could have played out differently. … It's fun to think about.”

olderelder said: “At any moment in any branch of one's family tree, things could've been different. The tiniest of details, down to which sperm fertilized which ovum.”

Yes, it’s fun. There are astronomical odds against us even existing, of course. It had to be that couple, in that place, that egg, that sperm, and the pregnancy had to be viable and ultimately produce that little bundle that eventually became the person we are. It’s a bit mind-blowing to think of all the factors before the moment of fertilization that all played into eventually giving rise to Me, including one’s entire lineage through the ages. All the generations before us, in all the places, with all the co-mingling of time, place and DNA.

I’ve been watching videos lately of archaeologists rummaging around here and there and finding DNA in ancient remains, being able to examine it and coming up with pictures of what that long-ago human looked like. It’s so amazing I’m bowled over by it. (Also a little weirded out). I have often wondered how I was fortunate enough to be born in a modern age and not back then when life was extraordinarily challenging and often brutal and mere survival was a chief concern. Because I think I would have folded at the first hurdle – not tough enough. Also, not into woolly mammoth meat for my evening meal.

Human nature is complex. In prehistoric times they were intellectual enough to realize that metal could be melted out of stone, capable and creative enough to fashion it into useful implements for their well-being as well as making gorgeous ceremonial objects that show they appreciated beauty, yet they also made savage weapons to be wielded in brutal battles (out of necessity, I know - kill or be killed). The same amazing brains molded the elements for the survival and betterment of their communities but also the deadly metal swords to hack others to pieces. I know they had to defend themselves against attack but also some of them were the instigators. Obviously many of them didn’t pass on their DNA at all or very far if they and their male offspring all died prematurely in battle and their female offspring died young due to the perils of their times. Fortunately for us, enough DNA was splashed about that we’re all here. But it’s interesting to contemplate the astronomical odds of us being here at all as well as us being us.

dagny: “Everyone probably wonders about what if things. What if mom had married that other guy? What if that car hadn't crashed? What if Grandpa stayed in Sweden?”

There are so many what ifs, as dagny says. My family comes from all over the British Isles. Absolute chance that the grandparents and parents ever got together to produce us. It’s a genetic lottery that we are ever born at all because Egg meeting Sperm – crapshoot.

Yes, it’s fun to contemplate all the “what if’s”. And it’s awesome too to think of the reality of one’s very existence, in view of all the happenstance that could have influenced events towards a different outcome.

Brother of Jerry said, mathematically: “The statistical shuffle to create a human (or any entity with two parents) is vastly more complex. We are, genetically, experientially, ancestrally, a one of a kind. The number of ways we might not have come into existence is effectively infinite.”

It’s amazing to consider. It’s certainly kept me amused this long, quiet, post-holiday afternoon. Lots of questions and musings and puzzles. I wish we could know everything but some things will never be explained. One of the most compelling realities is what BoJ said - that we are one of a kind, throughout all of human existence. If that isn't absolutely completely awesome, what is?

(Edited to shorten it up).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2022 08:53PM by Nightingale.

If you hadn't been a "dolt" for a nanosecond, we wouldn't have you here. Your loss is our gain.

That is a lovely remark, LW. Thankyousomuch.

I think someone should make a movie on the idea. Perhaps call it Sliding Doors. Oh wait...

16 great-great-grandparents.
And only 28 great great great grandparents. The other 4 were converted later.

My particular consciousness could only come about from the unique set of genes bequeathed me from all that came before me starting with the first fish to crawl out of the ocean and eventually become an ox, which I am. Clearly one change made in the thousands of years string of matings that led to me and I would be another consciousness, a flamingo or perhaps a jackal.

Knowing this is the case for everyone colors my view of humanity. I don't believe our trajectories are set. Certainly don't see a valid reason to believe in fore-ordination or a set destiny. But our makeup leaves us with definite propensities, one of which may be to control our propensities through the realization that there are choices.

When I see people do horrible things, like Mormon leaders, or home invaders, or those who can't stay off their phones while driving, I wonder if they lack the Propensity Control Gene.


My ancestors all converted in Europe like so many here. Why did they? Most looking for a better life. Which thing is a moving target at best.