https://kutv.com/news/local/latter-day-saint-leader-brad-wilcox-apologizes-comments-about-race-lds-mormon


1- I didn't know they were holding in-person firesides

2- How did he think this was an appropriate talk at all?

3- So far, the folks up in the COB tower haven't commented.

Thoughts?

Yikes. The insinuation that whites were made to wait longer is ridiculous and a false comparison, as if that had to be said. But it speaks volumes as to the core of mormonism: when confronted with moral choices, change the question and the choices, then cast your self as the real victim.

He could have stopped at "Brigham Young was a jerk".

He SHOULD have stopped at "Brigham Young was a jerk". ;)

It was a Zoom fireside, which the church and other "private" organizations love because you can block interlopers who are not part of the group.

Sometimes, people don't realize that their remarks will be perceived as offensive or lacking tact. I'm not defending the church leader in any way. Based upon what I have learned recently from JD Mormon Stories about secretaries and executive assistants working for the church, he should have vetted his remarks with a younger person(s) who is more active on social media. **Based on his other comments and remarks, He's the typical Mormon asshat and he meant every word.

Speaking for myself, I always waited for some church "higher up" to come and speak to my youth group, the ward or even the stake to offer some hope when chosen church jackasses spouted off both harmful and hurtful words and unwarranted criticisms. -They never came

What leaders would say is that good members need get thick skin and stop feeling offended.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2022 05:16PM by messygoop.

Yes, this was certainly a "sorry I got caught" with this remark i prepared and have clearly been telling kids for years.

"The Blacks"

"The Whites"

Ugh

Nightingale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "The Blacks"

That struck me as well. "The" blacks, "the" Jews". . . The article objectifies the noun, telling us all we need to know about Wilcox's social life and his views of those unlike him.

Yes, but he capitalized "Blacks" in his apology so it makes it all good.

OTOH, maybe he just knows one family named Black...

I'm sure some of his best friends . . .

He used a common Mormon tactic. When you ask a Mormon a question that makes them uncomfortable, or a question that might reveal damaging information, well…you asked the “wrong” question. Of course, they’re more than happy to answer the question you should have asked.

CrispingPin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He used a common Mormon tactic. When you ask a
> Mormon a question that makes them uncomfortable,
> or a question that might reveal damaging
> information, well…you asked the “wrong”
> question. Of course, they’re more than happy to
> answer the question you should have asked.
REMEMBER--
Always answer the question they should have asked!!

"So, you Mormons were a-holes to people with any African blood in them up until 1978--that sounds like a total dick move."

"One morning in 1820, a young man named Joseph Smith went out to pray..."

So funny that BYU fully threw him under the wagon with a full "we are shocked there is gambling in our casino" statement lol

I find it interesting that our CBS, ABC, Fox News TV stations and Salt Lake Tribune newspaper all have coverage of this event.

KSL (owned by LDS, Inc) and Deseret News (confession: I didn't check) not a peep.

just updated in the last hour...so finally. Read the comments...even TBM's are having a hard time with this. Some are really trying to give him a break, but weakly.

https://www.ksl.com/article/50344353/latter-day-saint-leader-apologizes-for-wrong-statement-about-black-people-and-priesthood

"... a professor of ancient scripture at Brigham Young University..."

I wonder what his education is as a prof of ancient scripture. Do they refer to the BoM as ancient scripture or does it mean the Bible?


"...my dear Black friends..."

I wonder...


"Office of Belonging"

And what would this be?


"...the church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse..."

So now scripture becomes theory. Interesting swivel.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2022 06:50PM by Nightingale.

From the KSL article:

"After Joseph Smith's death in 1847, his successor, President Brigham Young, praised a Black priesthood holder."

Wow - absolute proof that BY wasn't racist!


So how can this be reconciled?

"Then in 1852, President Young announced to the Utah Territorial Legislature as it legalized slavery that, as the church essay puts it, "men of black African descent could no longer be ordained to the priesthood." Neither black men nor women would be allowed to receive temple blessings again until June 1978, when the church announced that President Spencer W. Kimball had received a revelation opening the priesthood to all worthy males and temple blessings to all worthy people."

First, he wasn't racist, then he was?

Instead, that would have been a great opportunity to speak out against the evils of slavery.

He missed the mark. Badly.

I don't get why the writer of the article even included that paragraph - doesn't it make BY look seriously bad? Who would want to name their U after him? Or attend there?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2022 07:01PM by Nightingale.

The purpose is to shift blame from JS to BY.

Note how the paragraph implies that blacks had equal rights until 1852. Young then changed the rules so that black men "could no longer be ordained." In other words, Mormon racism was the product of a lesser prophet and not fundamental to the restored gospel; it was a detour, a temporary mistake in reading the divine map, that interrupted the restorative processes initiated by JS and continuing today.

The church won't explicitly throw BY under the bus, but the Lord's public relations staff are assuredly implying that he has tread marks on his face. That's how they keep the mud off of Smith.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2022 07:15PM by Lot's Wife.

Oh, very insightful. I wouldn't have thought of that.

My mind isn't quite devious enough. :/

Yes, I wondered about that - the implication that early on Blacks had equal rights (eg: could be ordained). Whenever I come across something like that, even if it doesn't sound accurate, I think it's just me and my lack of in-depth knowledge and experience with Mormonism, such as you all have.

But really, it wasn't true? Devious to indicate otherwise. To say the least.


PS: Wiki indicates that Blacks did hold the priesthood until BY took it away. I know that's not the best source as accuracy is not guaranteed but it's the first one I came across as I'm looking this up.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2022 07:27PM by Nightingale.

JS was a racist, but he seems sometimes to have overruled himself for people whom he personally liked. One or two or three black men were given the priesthood, and he promised one black woman that she would be sealed to his family and enjoy a Celestial existence. That said, he did teach that black folk were lesser beings.

Under pressure, BY allowed the woman to be sealed posthumously to the Smith family although only as a servant. Otherwise, he enforced more aggressively the rules JS had outlined. The church would like to ignore the Pearl of Great Price and other racist scriptures that Smith produced and blame it all on Young. That way they can present JS and the restoration to investigators as pristine.

So, if it was just BY that was wrong, why did more than a century’s worth of prophets, seers, revelators, Lord’s mouthpieces fail to see Brigham’s mistake? Did God just forget to bring it up?

I bet you got in trouble a lot in seminary.

My mom was my seminary teacher. ;)

But doesn't it reflect terribly badly on BY & the U?

Sure, but who is more important the founder or the successors? Would it be better to blame Jesus or Paul for the problems of Christianity? Lenin or Stalin for the Soviet Union's many excesses? Lincoln or the Republican Party for what we've seen in recent years?

If you want your organization, your movement, to thrive, it's best to keep its founder on a pedestal. If there are problems, put the onus on the lesser beings that followed.

Makes sense. Well, from their point of view.

I wonder if BYU will eventually have to be re-imagined. Somewhat like the way statues of former "heroes" are being dragged away and buried in basements once the principals become more enlightened. Colonialism has lost its sparkle.

PS: The problem with having heroes is the urge to consider them perfect. With Mormons et al, not only their founders/heroes have to be above reproach, so too their founding documents and subsequent history. But they're not. So the rationalizations get tricky for them.

It goes to show how much better it is to forego the P word altogether. (P for Perfect, and I for Inspired)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2022 08:10PM by Nightingale.

> PS: The problem with having heroes is the urge to
> consider them perfect. With Mormons et al, not
> only their founders/heroes have to be above
> reproach, so too their founding documents and
> subsequent history. But they're not. So the
> rationalizations get tricky for them.

And therein lie the seeds of the church's demise.

The Community of Christ have to be laughing their asses off. You have the church Brigham founded saying Brigham kind of sucked.

Does anyone know anything about Brigham Young supposedly "praising" black church members prior to 1852??

I have never heard of Brigham Young saying anything positive about black people.

The KSL news article mentions this but they provide neither a citation nor a quotes from Young. It seems a little suspicious to me. Kind of like how the church loves to say Brigham Young "prophesied" that blacks will eventually get the priesthood but they fail to mention that in the same speech he promotes slavery of black people, says black people can't or should ever be above white people, and then says they won't get the priesthood until all white people receive it. Not exactly a solid prophecy, considering part of it didn't come true. White people are still getting the priesthood AFTER 1978.

"While President Young was known to praise Black people prior to 1852, he received an unrecorded revelation, which he struggled to accept and understand, and made the faithful but difficult decision to deny priesthood authority, for only a brief time, to black men."

------ Some future church historian, probably

Yes. A mere 126 years. Practically a blip in the life of the average black person. A fleck of history, if you wiill.

Chicken N. Backpacks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "While President Young was known to praise Black
> people prior to 1852, he received an unrecorded
> revelation, which he struggled to accept and
> understand, and made the faithful but difficult
> decision to deny priesthood authority, for only a
> brief time, to black men."
>
> ------ Some future church historian,
> probably

Ohhh, don't give them ideas--you know this is coming someday.

His point sounded very Mormon to me, and I am sure he was rather proud of his cleverness until the poop hit the ventilation device.

I'm sure a lot of rank and file TBMs are wondering what all the fuss is about (assuming they even noticed). He makes perfect sense to them.

I note that no mention was made of the fact that Black women are still denied the Priesthood™. Of course the same is true of White women, so not racial discrimination. Gender discrimination. That's still acceptable.

Maybe the question they should have asked is how the church can disavow racism when their holy scriptures still contain so many racist verses.

"I made a serious mistake last night, and I am truly sorry," Wilcox said in a statement on Facebook.
"The illustration I attempted to use about the timing of the revelation on the priesthood for Black members was wrong."

Incoming tomato bombardment inspired a mea maxima culpa, but guarantee he remains truly and sincerely baffled on why folks are bent.
Very construction of the apology plus https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2417226 suggests it to be the case.

Concrete, either/or black/white kinda guy who has never of necessity or curiosity produced an original thought.
Not stupid; just an ideal Mormon, i.e. virginal undeveloped mind ripe for unthinking obedience.
That's what intellectual inbreeding produces, see

In the past, church leaders have conducted special fireside topics as rescues- a way for church leaders to tackle issues which members may have doubts and concerns. Apparently Wilcox was speaking in front of a 3 stake youth fireside in Alpine UT.

Here's a link to a transcript of the Wilcox talk 2/6/22

https://gileriodekel.com/2022/02/alpine-rescue-transcript/

He wasn't mis quoted. Nothing was taken out of context.
He is one of "TheLardz Chozen" and has decades of experience in preparing and giving talks - as well as having the Holy Ghost for inspiration in doing so.

He meant every word of what he said - and how he said it.

When people are convinced to believe that imaginary things are literal, the entire gamut is opened up for whatever idea or interpretation or "spiritual thought" one can conjure up to throw out there as to appear enlightened.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2022 10:23AM by auntsukey.

I’m sure Wilcox prayed for personal revelation in preparing his talk. Holy Ghost must not have been available - so much for him/her/it being a constant companion. Wilcox et al never consider wwjd: what would Jesus do? Wilcox and his ilk need to see how GBH confronted the priesthood/blacks fiasco. GBH would say: “just don’t know how it all went down”. GBH was a golf ball but at least he didn’t go down the Randy Bott, goofy explanation hole.

I’m sure his defenders will blame ‘Cancel CULTure’ is comin for Jesus and Joseph!
I gave up defending Joe Rogan when he started advocating ivermectin for Covid instead of vaccines.
But I thought he was uncancellable but now some Right wing company is offering to buy him out of Spotify for $100 million.
I bet he tells them make it a billion, Billionaire!!!
Wherever he goes, he’s not stopping what he’s done for 12years and we all knew he was this stoner comedian meathead MMA guy, who liked to get high, drunk and have a 4-hr long conversation with his high/drunk comedian fighter meathead buddies.
And he has a wide variety of buddies.
Lately more right wing than left.
That’s why he has the biggest audience on the internet, so pretty much , the world.
More people listen to him than all the network cable TV audience alone. He’s a liberal who is used to taking shots. He’s only said what he had in his heart, 10 yrs ago.
Man I hate to think how I’d look if they rolled tape on me from 10yrs ago in front of the whole Damned world.
Then apologizing twice in one week on camera and then calling it all a political hit job.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2022 09:20PM by schrodingerscat.

Here's a really good source on this.

http://www.connellodonovan.com/black_white_marriage.html

Appleby wrote a letter to Brigham Young, informing him of this situation and wanting to know if the church indeed approved of blacks holding priesthood and marrying white women:

At Lowell…I found a coloured brother by name of ‘Lewis’ a barber, an Elder in the Church, ordained some years ago by William Smith. This Lewis I was informed has also a son who is married to a white girl and both members of the Church there. Now dear Br. I wish to know if this is the order of God or tolerated in this Church ie to ordain Negroes to the Priesthood and allow amalgamation [inter-racial marriage]. If it is I desire to Know, as I have Yet got to learn it.[9]

Almost a month later, Appleby decided to investigate further and went to the Enoch Lewis home to witness their relationship:

In looking for a Br. in the Church, I called at a House, a coloured man resided there, I set myself down for a few moments presently in came quite a good looking White Woman, about 22 years old I should think, with blushing cheeks, and was introduced to me as the negro’s wife, an infant in a cradle near bore evidence of the fact. Oh! Woman, thought I, where is thy shame, (for indeed I felt ashamed and not only ashamed, but disgusted, when I was informed they were both members of a Church!) [Where is] Respect for thy family, thyself, for thy offspring and above all the law of God?[10]

While Brigham Young’s adulterous relationship was going public in Massachusetts and throughout the nation, we turn to Young at Winter Quarters and what happened there. Brigham Young was already long aware of black Mormons Walker Lewis and Joseph T. Ball holding priesthood, having known Lewis and Ball for many years when Young was serving missions in the Boston and Lowell area. Here in Nauvoo, Brigham Young told recently ordained Warner McCary that holding the priesthood had nothing to do with race.[14] On March 26, 1847, Young told McCary that holding LDS priesthood had “nothing to do with the blood for [from] one blood has God made all flesh, we have to repent [to] regain what we av lost" (a paraphrase of Acts 17:26). I emphasize that in March 1847, Young said that there was no priesthood ban because of race using Acts as a proof text– we are all ONE BLOOD; the only stipulation is repentance. But by December 1847, this is all changed.

As I noted earlier Pres. Appleby wrote a report to Brigham Young about his discovery of Enoch Lewis’s marriage to Matilda Webster. He mailed this report to Brigham Young with an address at Council Bluff, Iowa, where it was then forwarded to Winter Quarters, Nebraska, and there remained. Young, of course, was just settling in Utah at the time, so the acting Mormon president did not receive the letter for some six months. Ironically, Appleby’s letter, Brigham Young, and William I. Appleby himself, all converged at Winter Quarters at the beginning of December 1847. Brigham Young returned to Winter Quarters from the Salt Lake Valley, when Elder William I. Appleby arrived there on December 2 from his mission presiding over the eastern states. Young read Appleby’s letter regarding the marriage of Enoch and Matilda Lewis and then immediately met with Appleby in person to ensure the accuracy of the details of the inter-racial marriage of Enoch and Mary Matilda Lewis.

As shown, by December 1847, things had significantly changed for Brigham Young. Warner McCary had come out in open rebellion against the church and had started his own version of Mormonism, including a highly sexualized sealing ceremony, in which McCary was “sealed” to the white women of his disciples by sleeping with them. In response to all this, Young called a meeting of the members of the Twelve who were present in Winter Quarters, and had Appleby appear to personally give an account. Here are Thomas Bullock’s minutes of that meeting:

1847 Minutes of the Twelve
December 3, 1847 Minutes of the Quorum of the Twelve, pp. 6-7
(Click on Image to Enlarge)

bro Appleby relates...
Wm. Smith ordained a black man Elder at Lowell[15] & he has married a white girl & they have a child
Prest. Young If they were far away from the Gentiles they wod. [would] all on [sic - ot? ought?] to be killed - when they mingle seed it is death to all.
If a black man & white woman come to you & demand baptism can you deny them? the law is their seed shall not be amalgamated
Mulattoes r like mules they cant have children, but if they will be Eunuchs for the Kingdom of God Heaven's sake they may have a place in the Temple[16]
B. Y. The Lamanites r purely of the house of Israel & it is a curse that is to be removed when the fulness of the Gospel comes –
O. H. Has taught that if girls marry the half breeds they r throwing themselves away & becoming as one of them
B. Y. It is wrong for them to do so.
B. Y. The Pottawatamies will not own a man who has the negro blood in him – that is the reason why the Indians disown the negro prophet [Warner McCary]. [17]

It is here in this meeting that the Mormon theology prohibiting marriages between blacks and whites was born. Although the minutes are extremely sparse, they are densely compacted with theological themes that will be carried on into the following decades.

Black-White Marriage in Mormon Theology

With this meeting of Young and the other apostles, we have the first LDS attempts at formulating a theology that prohibited black-white marriage. Below are the seven main theological points I have found in authoritative LDS statements throughout the decades (although some slightly overlap with each other). Most of these points originated at the December 1847 meeting of Young and the Apostles with Pres. Appleby. Again I point out how similar most of these points are to current LDS theological arguments against homogamy, or same-sex marriage.

It is prohibited and contrary to church doctrine from ancient times – “The law is their seed shall not be amalgamated”
It would lead to the annihilation of the human species, since mixed-race children cannot reproduce - “Mulattoes are like mules”
It and the reproduction of mixed-race children requires blood atonement for those who are Latter-day Saints – “this will always be so”
It is a “great sin”
The interracial marriage of Ham & Egyptus brought “tainted” black blood – and its priesthood/temple curse – through the universal flood
Racial segregation is a necessary evil to prevent black-white marriage en masse and total genetic chaos of white and black races, leading to the complete loss of the priesthood on earth, the destruction of the LDS Church, and the loss of exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom for all humanity - “When they mingle seed, it is death to all”
It is a “virus” and will spread contagiously

I saw a couple of memes on Twitter that had had pictures of Brad Wilcox. The captions were:

“Why did Joseph Smith marry a mother and daughter? Maybe we ought to be asking why he didn’t marry the grandma too?”

And

“Why doesn’t everyone get the second anointing? Maybe we ought to ask don’t I get a third?”

I think his talk was the biggest pooch screw I’ve seen anyone in the church perform.

John Dehlin has had something of a 'Brad Wilcox week' on Mormon Stories.

Well, he sure put his foot in his mouth. You would think that TBMs would have learned better by now.

In addition to the awful racism on full display here, something else has irked me since I first saw the video a few days ago. Specifically: "...why did whites have to wait 1,829 years?"

Excuse me? Has Mr. Wilcox risen to his vaunted position without bothering to crack open a Gospel Doctrine manual or the New Testament? Mormon doctrine teaches that there was a "falling away" after the deaths of the original apostles. Mr. Wilcox seems to labor under the impression that his religion believes that the priesthood was taken from the Earth during Jesus' childhood.

Then again, maybe I shouldn't be surprised he's an idiot 6 ways to Sunday.

I don’t think it has anything to do with not understanding Mormon doctrine. He was just sloppy doing the math. It matters not at all whether the number of years the priesthood was supposedly “lost” should be 1829, or 1800, or 1796, or whatever. It’s all make-believe anyway.

I think that the clip was taken out of context. More of the passage states, "And why did the Gentiles have to wait until after the Jews? And why did everybody in the House of Israel except the tribe of Levi have to wait until —..."

He was arguing that a group not being given the priesthood until later was a normal course of dealing for **the Almighty**

He was trying to defend the indefensible in a way which is just slightly better than "We don't understand the ways of the Lord," which is the usual approach.

Of course, the church really just ought to apologize and admit wrongdoing.

Brad Wilcox was a nice guy when I interacted when him at BYU.

Silly Me!

at my tender age I try not to say things that I might regret / wish to apologize for.


Silly Me; I think a guy as up in ChurchCo / YBU could adapt the same plan.

Wilcox was campaigning for GA promotion. He needed to say something "unique" in order to get the attention of the big boys. Unfortunately for him, he overshot it and said something stupid.

Alexis AR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wilcox was campaigning for GA promotion. He needed
> to say something "unique" in order to get the
> attention of the big boys. Unfortunately for him,
> he overshot it and said something stupid.

He said the quiet parts outloud.
He’s not sorry he said some racist things, he’s just sorry the tape went viral. Mormons are no less racist now than they were when I left 21 yrs ago. They’re still so proud of their racist Mormon scriptures their buttons are about to pop off of their chests and go ballistic, 21yrs after those racist myths were thoroughly debunked by DNA evidence that proved zero Semitic DNA in any American tribes, N or S.

He's not sorry it went viral. He's just sorry that it went viral in a negative way. He probably thought his words were clever and almost certainly expected them to be better received.

Yep. He's probably surprised to realize everyone doesn't agree with him.

Is this the same Brad Wilcox who thought he was big news in the 80s and 90s for making contemporary mormon music and speaking at EFY? Is he a GA now? Or still just does speeches for hire? So weird

It's apparently the same Brad wilcox. He's now a professor of religion, with emphasis on "ancient scripture" at BYU. Maybe he really did study the subject-- I really don't know, but I'm skeptical. He started out in the education department.

I am a glutton for punishment so I perused the comments left by students of his religion class. He has an average or middle of the road ranking. Most TBM sounding students adore him and those (who may have asked troubling questions about church history- some of these were edited) who thought he was a prick gave hime 1 or 2 stars.

His best reviews remind students to fill out their "final exam" study guide as they go thru the course. Then as easy as 1-2-3, you copy your study guide notes into the same skeleton style notes of your final exam.

Sort of reminds me of being a good TBM: pay tithing, do as your told and keep your mouth shut and you will get your gold star celestial kingdom.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2022 11:28AM by messygoop.

I wonder if Russ will get invited back to the NAACP after this? This is a public relations pooch screw.

How the church should spin it is use Russ' continuing restoration theme he's using now. Just say God sometimes uses faulted people to move the ball forward. There was a prejudice against people of color and in the 19th century that prejudice helped spark off a war between free and slave states. There was a lot of controversy and tension and if the church gave people of color leadership authority in the church, this might have thrown even more persecution on the church.

Even in the 1970's America wouldn't elect a person of color to the presidency. The civil rights movement was just the decade before. So the church changed it's policy when society was ready for it. Before it might have made the church a target. Especially in the southern states.

The church has to change when society is ready for the changes. We can have a different church today than what Joseph Smith or Brigham Young could have.