https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/11/01/jana-riess-lds-church-finances/

This is the subhead, in Jana's words, which come across as objective:

"If the reports are true, the government has every right to be angry. This kind of financial practice looks terrible for the church. It feels covert and deceptive."


I could tell she is an active member, though, by this paragraph further down in her account which is obviously not 100% objective:

"The opening of the “60 Minutes” segment doesn’t inspire a great deal of confidence in its accuracy about Mormonism as a whole. One early sequence shows a white-shirted missionary heading to a doorbell all alone (where is his companion?) while gospel music plays in the background (I only wish we had such powerful and uplifting worship music in the church). It states “Mormons are required to hand over 10% of their income,” which makes it sound like there is no choice involved and that all members cough up a full 10% of their income in tithing just for the privilege of sitting in the pews."

To viewers, especially those unfamiliar with the church, a lone missionary going to a door wouldn't even register as being of any import. It's a tiny nit to pick about the program. I didn't notice the music in the background but why make it a point of contention, especially with the side comment that non-LDS music is more pleasing than the LDS kind. Maybe that's why they chose it instead!

Re her negative reaction to the statement in the program that Mormons are required to hand over 10% of their income, I think it's fair to say that. They didn't choose to spend much upfront time in a 40 minute program explaining the nitty gritty of the church. Like, you aren't required to hand it over but then you'll be scorned out or counted inactive or shamed or lose out in various ways or whatever. It was just an overview and the regular viewer will understand the principle of tithing without spending a lot of time in the intro on that aspect of being Mormon.

Her remarks about Australian membership are interesting:

"According to the church, there are more than 155,000 members on the membership rolls in Australia. However, nearly two-thirds of them did not declare themselves as Latter-day Saints on the most recent Australian census, which recorded just under 58,000 members, according to a website that tracks Latter-day Saint membership statistics around the world.

"Of that 58,000 who say they are members, a smaller number can be expected to be “active” in the church, which includes the ideal of tithing 10% of income."


Do they really have nearly 100K resigned or inactive members? She says even of the 58K not all of them would be active, so no tithes from them either.


Another excerpt:

"The church says it has done nothing wrong, and it’s possible that what it has done will turn out to be legal. That’s what has happened in Canada, where the church is also under investigation for its use of members’ tithes. The CBC reported last week that the “Mormon church in Canada moved $1B out of the country tax-free—and it’s legal.”

This statement doesn't present the whole picture - the point is that yes, it's "legal" but seems to break the spirit of the law, which states that the $$$ has to benefit Canadians. The church's reasoning is that as there are Canadian students at the BYU campuses they aren't contravening the Canadian law. But when you think of the amount of $$$ they transfer to the USA, compared to just a few hundred Canadian students at BYU, how can anyone reasonably think that is a good use of "charitable" donations? It's supposed to help people, not go into stock portfolios.

I think that Riess' inclusion of the phrase "and it's legal" misrepresents the crux of the matter, whether deliberately or not.

If you read the several threads here on the 60 Minutes program some of the details will demonstrate that.

I'd say it's obvious the church and its members will be taking note of the program.


Riess concludes her brief article by saying:

"This kind of financial practice looks terrible for the church. It feels covert and deceptive. Creating a “charity” that appears to be in name only is unfair to other religions in Australia that have played by the rules. It’s unfair to the Australian government, which has been shortchanged millions in taxes. And it’s unfair to those tithe-paying Latter-day Saints Down Under who had a right to assume their tithing was going where it was supposed to."

Yes. Exactly.

And it's not just the tithe-payers Down Under.

I think this is the most important part of the story:


"The reporters assert that the church created what The Age referred to as “a shell company” to exploit a loophole in Australian law. Australia does not give any kind of tax exemption for donations to churches or houses of worship. But it does give a tax exemption for donations to “charity,” things like homeless shelters and schools and hospitals.

The reports are stating that the church created a “charitable trust fund” and directed Australian Saints to send their tithing and other donations to that trust fund rather than to the church itself. They could then claim the tax exemption for contributing to a charity.

But if I am understanding it correctly, Australian law then requires the registered charities to distribute much of that money within Australia and to have that distribution overseen locally, with all decisions made by Australians who run the charity from within the country.

The website of the Australian Charities and Not-for-Profits commission lists the “L.D.S. Charitable Trust Fund” as a registered charity in Australia, reporting in November 2021 that it had received AU$100,211,557, more than 99% of which was from donations and bequests. Of that, it spent AU$7,810 for charitable purposes and reported no employee salaries or other expenses.

As The Age put it:

“LDS Charities Australia has no paid staff, Australian website, expenses or infrastructure to run what purports to be one of the country’s major charities, collecting more in individual donations than Oxfam, Beyond Blue or Caritas Australia, the Catholic Church’s international aid charity."

"The relatively short history of the mormon church inspires zero confidence when viewed without the pious devotion of the typical adherent."

--Judic West, impartial and irresponsible witness

Temple recommend question: Do you try to be honest in your dealings with your fellow man?

Church attorney answer: Um well, we try not to flagrantly violate the law.

She’s a Corporate shill for the Corporation.
Claiming tithing isn’t compulsory is bullsh!t when they don’t let you attend your own kids wedding if you don’t. Every year I hated going to tithing settlement like it was a GD mafia shakedown. I hated that aspect of the CULT more and more. Until I avoided it altogether and said I font want to go to the temple.

I'm not surprised at all with the Mormon ethics (lack of), legalities etc. described here. The church thinks its above the law and always has. That's why they have a building full of lawyers in SLC - avoid taxes etc.

The story also throws out member numbers and gives the amount of donations, $110 million. If 22,000 members give 5k each that's $110 M. 30,000 or so Aussie tithers seems reasonable considering the 110 M.

Man, what a racket. You have free labor collecting you $110M a year and you pay out 8k in charity. Mormon JE$U$ is one greedy God!!!

squirrely Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not surprised at all with the Mormon ethics
> (lack of), legalities etc. described here. The
> church thinks its above the law and always has.

Yep.

Should be required viewing for all missionaries in Australia

Should be required viewing for all investigators in Australia.

I believe the church charitable trust in Australia has no paid employees because the trust is administered out of that fancy resort on the north island in New Zealand. There were posts about that here some months ago.

If the trust is supposed to be administered by Australians, that right there would be a violation. Not to mention that a minuscule percentage of the money is actually spent on charity, regardless of who is administering the trust.

Maybe GA stands for Grifters Anonymous.

Re the census numbers of self-identified LDS versus the official LDS claimed membership:

Aus: 58k census / 155k LDS claim = 37%

Can: 85k* census / 199k LDS claim = 44%

That sounds about right to me. I would also assume that the US active membership is about 45% of claimed (or was, pre-covid), and in non-English speaking foreign countries, it is between 30% and 35%

***ETA***: I was still able to edit the second thread. I updated the number of LDS reported on census in Canada, and in Ontario. That increased the percent shrinkage in Canada by 1%, and in Ontario by a whopping 10%. There is a notation in the post about what was edited.

Or as a quick and dirty rule of thumb, actual membership is a third of what the Church claims. Close enough for government work.



* I recently did 2 threads on the Canadian census, and used the number 87k for self-reported LDS in Canada. That included the Community of Christ, which has 2,300 self-identified adherents in Canada. Too late for me to edit the original threads, but from here on out I will use the correct reported number for LDS on the Canadian census, which is 85,315.

It doesn't matter much. The above formula is 44% either way.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2022 01:28AM by Brother Of Jerry.

Speaking as a RM, I can answer why only one missionary might be knocking at the door by himself. The elder's companion is a @#$%, pure and simple. I had a missionary companion who would climb over fences, slip through locked gates, throw rocks at fenced dogs guarding the yard. As an elder who had 2 missionary bikes stolen (both chained to a steel pole) I was apprehensive as to where I would lock my bike on the street. My companion was such a turd that he would knock 3-4 doors and I would be alone wandering the street looking for the idiot.

Why was it a better sounding hymn/music in the video? Because they don't want to be sued by LDS Corp for violating copyrights for using LDS hymns.

Maybe LDS congregations are friendlier today in 2022, but 30 years ago wards were not friendly to strangers despite their visitors welcome sign. I got cornered when I attended a ward at my own stake center- I had been working Sundays and decided to drop in to partake sacrament (I even took dress clothes to change into after work). The bishopric flew off the stand to interrogate me- What's your name? Why are you here? Why are you not attending your own ward? And they told me to get a letter from the stake president to continue attending. Such a hassle and I never went back. And I had informed my bishop about working on Sundays- he was ok with it.

LDS Corp is all about conformity and control.

every time I read the name Jana Reiss, I think of Janet Weiss...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhvrwhflPWg

Oh, yeah! "Weiss-le while you work"!

When I was attending the UW singles ward, in one PH meeting a student's mom & dad attended with their UW student son ONCE;

The EQP was ultra-rude to the dad suggesting - in front of Everyone - that the dad was being derelict by not attending his home ward...

Nearly Everyone wanted to crawl under their chairs...

I swear this is 100& true/ factual, it happened in the late 60s just after I returned from my ('Great Lakes') mish

Yep.

They are real jerks at times.

My parents would attend the Oakland temple on a Friday, then attend a Bay Area ward before driving home on Sunday.

My Mom was actually told off by the RS while visiting a ward.

-Sit down. We already know that you're visiting today. Doesn't your home ward miss you?

They never went back as guests.

Nothing new here. Tithing might be considered a charitable donation for accounting purposes on the government side but the church makes it clear the 10% goes to run the church the way the leaders see fit. Since when did the members have any say how that 10% is spent? Most the money running the church outside the US comes from the US. Sure there are other categories a member can donate to like the Perpetual Education Fund or Missionary Fund but that’s extra on top of the 10% tithing and up to the member is they want to donate extra.

Why do you say most of the money used to run the church outside the US comes from the US?

That is clearly not the case in Australia and Canada. It is probably not the case in New Zealand or the UK, or Mexico or Brazil.

Other than paying for buildings, LDS Inc doesn’t have much in the way of expenses. The buildings are paid for up front, so the UK, for example, costs very little to run. Tithing can go a long way in that environment, even if there are not that many members.

I can guarantee that were I to bring this topic up with any of my TBM conservative republican extended family, their response would be "Good for the Church! They're being smart. Taxes are just theft and the gubmint is trying to steal more money from us!"

I don't think they will vote for Ammon Bundy, but, the predominance of this type of thinking is why his ilk has been allowed to flourish in Idaho. I doubt this article would cause much concern for most of them.

Sigh. I agree.

It's just one neuron away from being OK with "bleeding the beast" mentality.

Oh, they're very happy with the "bleeding the beast" mentality. Especially if it helps the corporation. Depressing, I know, but, what do you expect from cult members?

It's sad to think of so many regular folks forking over their hard-earned dollar bills to a multi-billion dollar corporation for scant return to themselves.

Tithing shouldn't hurt the giver but I've seen cases where it does. Families where the husband has a decent job and OK income but the wife still has to work as well, despite having a passel of kids to look after too, all at the church's direction.

How does the tithing $$$ help the everyday family in the pew?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2022 02:32PM by Nightingale.

Obviously it doesn't, it only helps the corporation. But that's not the angle they are seeing it from. They are happy to think the corporation is getting something over on the government. Also, all that money is for Jesus when he gets here, so win win situation for them. They don't care about the harm tithing does to families and local communities.

One of my pet peeves about tithing is the sheer volume of cash that is siphoned off and sent to SLC. This is money that would be spent locally and/or used for charity locally. Most members feel like they have done their charitable giving via tithing, which is clearly false. And, now they're too broke to help their neighbors.