... no garmets.

After so many years in such status, i.e., being in but not all in, I think some members of my ward are starting to view me as somewhat of a phony, showing me a little less respect, being a little more distant. One thing I think that helps me retain some level of status in some of their eyes is that I hold a graduate degree in engineering, am more well read than most people, and have an income and personal assets well above the overwhelming majority of ward members.

I guess my point is, with all the membership hemorrhaging that is occurring with membership in California, and Sunday attendance about 60% of what it was about 20 years ago, it seems like they ought to be grateful that someone like me visits the chapel regularly and participates in various church activities.

I sort of feel like making an announcement, if the Bishopric, Stake President, and ward members start treating me too much like a second class citizen, then my reaction will be "Go Ahead, Make My Day", and you'll have one less middle aged healthy, honest, married heterosexual male as part of your congregation.

One question I ask myself though is whether we’re spending our time doing the things with the highest priorities.

It’s a question I ask myself.

Not sure if you know or care about the many issues with the church.

For me, once I knew all of that, that was the end of attendance.

Period.

Everyone’s in a different place though, and I know it does has some social value to attend.

This is similar to my view as well. I'm happily, an out lesbian with a steady girlfriend(and I'm an erotic short story writer, small beans) and I have no interest in changing those aspects of my life. I'm not willing to ruin relationships by outright arguing or challenging beliefs, because I personally believe that it's not my place or right to force someone onto that traumatic path. The information is out there. If looking up the church's controversies isn't going to sway them, then me, seen as a heathen and a sinner, isn't going to either.

So, what would be the point of church attendance? I'm not going to take anything they say as blueprint to change my life, nor am I going to take any of it as truth because I know it's all a scam. And I'm not going to waste time alienating people by being argumentative and shaking up their cognitive dissonance. So...it'd be two hours to simply waste my time?

I can find more real and fruitful relationships outside of the church, especially considering most members I know seem to have an infantalized view of why people choose to sin and how "simple" and "easy" it is to follow gods law. Like, I hate talking to them because they're very focused and preoccupied with the church. And any other topics we might have in common is like....they like Disney movies a lot but hate the gays holding hands in some recent films. I can't tell them about my work, I can't talk to them about books I've read because they don't usually read a lot outside of church/Christian literature. I dislike that it feels like I'm talking down to them and the worst, most aggravating thing, is I feel like THEY are talking down to ME! XD

Interesting.

Your social status and what you could potentially contribute ($$, time, church jobs) will keep them from treating you like complete trash. However they won't view you as top tier unless you start jumping through hoops to become one of the elite (temple goer).

I don't know what you see in going and subjecting yourself to any of it, but at least you're giving them something to talk about!

You're not one of "them".

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GEStsLJZhzo

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You're not one of "them".
>
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GEStsLJZhzo


OMG... that's hilarious!

How can u tolerate the outright lies & the obfuscation?

I view ChurchCo as a bottomless money-pit that grinds people into manure.

Good Luck in try to find-associate with thinking, reasonable people who aren't sheep!

I don't understand, bit I'm sympathetic with folks who 'need' to tolerate the spoon-feeding of garbage from talks, 'worthiness interviews', other ways if youre not a true member of their club..
and Adults being treated like children or animals who attend



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2023 10:06PM by GNPE.

I assume there is some like-mindedness here.

I have been friends with many ward members over the years. The only way I can hang out is if they tolerate my opinions. It is not an everyday Mormon.

The good news is that there are other places to find friends.

Dogs make great friends. So do cats, for that matter. They don't care if you go to church on Sunday. In fact, they probably would prefer that you didn't. That would give you more time to pet them, give them treats, and play with them.

My conscience wouldn’t allow me to remain silent as the gerontocracy lied to me and especially my kids, telling us we should follow the example set by Joseph’s Myth, when he

A. Lied about the First Vision
B. Lied about receiving divine revelation
C. ‘Married’ his followers wives and teenage daughters after sending them off on missions, so he could spread his righteous seed in them
D. Lied about his plural marriages.
E. Lied about Native Americans being Lamanites
F. Lied about Blacks being descendants of Cain.
G. Lied about the BoS
H. Lied bout the abuse

The list of lies goes on, but when I went and asked my Bishop about that long list, my Bishop (long time close family friend, wife’s OB/Gyn) told me it’s fine for you to have these doubts, but if you share them with other Mormons I’ll be forced to discipline you.”

That’s when I handed him my resignation and never went back.
It really wasn’t healthy for me to remain silent after that.
Morally I wasn’t left with the option of attending for social reasons after realizing I was born into a GD abusive CULT!

Why do you want your kids and grandkids see you socialize with people who have zero problems whatsoever with a racist rapist?

Why do you want your family seeing you living in a country founded by not just racists, but slave holders?

I had no choice in the matter and the alternatives are worse.

I heard on Fox and verified on line that all the Presidents come from families that were slave owner except one.

The only one who's family didn't own slaves was Donald Trump. The Trumps came to the U.S. after slavery was abolished.

Obama's mother's family were slave owners. Interesting.

If your family has been here a long time and dig back far enough, a whole lot of people have ancestors that were slave owners. I am one of them. It's not a unique or surprising situation.

Lots of people here I've read are living away from the U.S. I think it is entirely possible to plan, save, and move.

But like many things other people matter. And when these people are members and a strong connection exists, not understanding the OP here is myopic, narrow minded, and self centric in my opinion.

I don't get staying for social reasons. At all. The funeral potatoes really are that good? Well, actually they are, but, they do not a complete life make.

Does finding a group where you feel superior to the others make for a better "social life"?

Is the challenge of being liked in spite of everything so seductive?

As an extreme introvert I am very curious to know what is at the root of being a cafeteria Mormon or a cafeteria anything at all.

And if you leave because they don't treat you well enough they will still have their billions. They will still have the last laugh. Or would that be smug chuckle since loud laughter is not allowed? I suppose as a "middle aged healthy, honest, married heterosexual male" as part of their congregation you are a trophy and they will continue to treat you "just well enough". Luke warm Jesus called it. Well, did he really call anything?



We do so many things to please the Ball and Chain. That is my conclusion. Luckily mine doesn't want to go to any church at all. But oh the other things I do . . .

>> As an extreme introvert I am very curious to know what is at the root of being a cafeteria Mormon or a cafeteria anything at all.

I know that the cafeteria approach has long been accepted in the Catholic church in which I was raised. Catholics listen politely to the Pope, carefully consider what he says, and then do what they want. It's not a bad approach to religion, and tends to keep a healthy balance in life for those who like to go to church for whatever reason.

Mormonism is not for the rational mind. If you can turn off your rational mind, Mormonism may work for you.

In less glowing terms, you will be okay if you can "lean into stupid".

That leaves temperament as the deciding factor. If you are extroverted and don't mind being pitied for your slow sipping of the Kool Aid, I say go with it.

During my last year or so, before I finally did the full cord cut. I would have fun messing with the culture. I would wear my expensive black suit, with a dark grey shirt, and silk power tie. Put on a pair of my polished leather dress shoes, and walk down the church hallway with my sunglasses on, and my hair trimmed to a one. I never said anything, I would just walk down the hallway, never flinching or smiling. Always show up just as SM was starting.

Drove them nuts, they would give me the stare, move aside and whisper as I passed. I always sat in the back, and would leave as the closing song started. The bishop at the time knew me, and knew I was messing with them, he was a good ole boy rancher and would just give me a grin when he saw me. But that ended with a new bishop, and his figuring you were to do what he told you to do. So for me, there was nothing left, it was just a waste of time.

Eventually all things catch up.

If Only ChurchCo didn't exploit people financially & intimidate them into compliance & conformity to their often silly rules (women shamed for wearing GASP! pants to church) !!!!

sigh...

I always find it interesting when people say that they stay in the church for the social aspect. I have a few Mormon friends and family members who are truly wonderful people, but I have found them to be the exception in Mormonism, not the rule. I don't need to be part of the church to maintain those relationships because they're true friends.

I've lived in Utah for most of my adult life and I know church members aren't necessarily the same everywhere, but I found wards to be cliquish and unwelcoming. Many of the Mormons in my neighborhood who would be in my ward are not very nice people who I want to spend any time around. I left the church because it wasn't true, but it is the Mormon people who solidified my decision to leave and will keep me away from the church for good.

I could see church attendance "greasing the wheels" in a smaller community. People might be more willing to work with a real estate agent, loan officer, insurance agent, etc. where they know the individual from church (of course, as we all know, that can also sometimes lead to affinity fraud as well.) And church attendance might smooth the way in other, more casual community relationships, such as when you get a pleasant "hello" at the grocery store or when checking out a library book.

I can see why staying in might be the easier path to take in certain circumstances. But for those who wish to stay in while taking the cafeteria approach, that assumes the good will of the local membership in tolerating that approach. As the OP points out, that would make sense as a way for the church to deal with declining U.S. membership, but may not always be put into practice locally.

All well and good, but terms and conditions apply. I don't think this approach would be available to everybody based on gender and ethnic identity.

I am a white man, but also know I don't make near enough money to be afforded the "luxury" of being an semi-active cafeteria Mormon. Honestly they don't want me around anymore than I wish to be around them.

they don't want me around anymore than I wish to be around them.

This is me.