Now I know that Dusty is not a prophet. There was a legal disclaimer, note 20, on his conference address that reads:

"This is not to imply a cause-and-effect relationship. Some who never pay tithing attain professional opportunities, while some who pay tithing do not. The promise is that the windows of heaven will be opened to the tithe payer. The nature of the blessings will vary."

When the Church has to put legal disclaimers on the words of a true prophet something is wrong.

I know that its there so that if someone sues the Church because they did not get the blessings of tithing as Rusty says, the Church, have a legal argument to say that what Rusty said was taken the wrong way.

This also goes against what I have been taught that the windows of heaven will be open if I pay my tithing. I was never taught it might be in the after life.

I would like to hear your comments on a legal disclaimer put on what the prophet said. Are we going to see these more often in conference talks?

To me this really shows that the Church is really being run by the lawyers. not by God or Jesus or the prophet. Just review the legal conflicts with the Cody WY temple and the Heber City temple. Church says this is where the temple is to be built to heck with zoning laws or environmental issues.

What's even more interesting is the Church built the parts or sections for Cody Temple before the building permit was issued. Now it sits in a field. And there are still legal challenges by the people who do not want the temple in their area that is not zoned for a church or temple. Both cities want the temple but in a different location. Now what would Jesus do? In Heber City the people who are Mormon have been threatened that their temple recommends might not be renewed if they go against the brethren.

If TBM did some research into what is really happening in the Church they might get a better idea of who is really running the Church. I now need to repent because this thread is not built on Celestial Thinking!!! Am I bad. Oh wait maybe that was not true what Rusty said about Celestial Thinking and the layers are working on a legal disclaimer.

I suspect that many churches will follow dusty Rusty's lead, especially given the clergical sex abuse found heavily in both the Roman Catholic church and the southern Baptist convention. Ultimately, what this will probably mean is that if you want to run a church, you'd better first get a law degree.

And no, God ain't part of any of it!

For men giving a priesthood blessing. If the person receiving the blessing becomes better, then it's a testament to God's mighty priesthood on Earth. However, if the person does not improve or passes away (heaven forbid) then it was neither God's will to get better or the person who received the blessing lacked the FAITH to get better.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2023 09:57AM by messygoop.

What about a disclaimer about temple endowments?

"Since you will rule and reign in the House of Israel forever, dying will literally "make you the boss". In the highest Heaven, Mormons rule over Jews. The perks of upper management will vary. Parking spaces, multiple wives (and their quality - you may get the dregs), and Kolob views are not guaranteed."

. . . The devil and his lawyers . . .

I think he means that the church will only patronize your business unless you are a mormon and pay tithing---just like Brigham Young organized ZCMI when he realized the "gentiles" were making a nice living in SLC.

Nelson might as well have said "Don't buy stuff from non-mormons, and If you oppose us we will ruin you."

This is when it is time for the mormon church to lose their tax-exemption---when they start threatening those who don't pay a kick-back to the church.

Seriously? Is that for real? I'm too lazy to check, but that sounds like SNL comedy level stuff. I think maybe someone is pulling a leg somewhere.

We should help them make up more "disclaimers" for their teachings like bradley did above.

If that is real , it tells me a few things:

-They think they will get sued for taking everyone's money and making promises they can't deliver. (I think they should be held accountable for what they say, as should religion in general.)
-They know their zillion dollar stash is getting attention and people are starting to question how they convince people to keep giving.
-People are starting to question their honesty (shell companies, etc.), so they are looking for a way to cover their questionable misstatements.
-People are getting wiser to all the manipulative misinformation. Their BS tithing claims and heaven promises are sounding worse than scam calls.
-The art of speaking out both sides of their mouths is sometimes tricky. It's obvious they are doing it. So, having so many lawyers, why not just come out with disclaimers and cover their doublespeak.

its for real. Its footnote 20 end of president's Sunday conference talk.

Wow. You're serious. They are not even pretending that business isn't first.
They must be seriously worried about getting sued for their BS.

I hope we see a bigger trend for religion in general having to do this to cover their rears. They have gotten away with BS far too long IMO.

The nature of the blessings will vary?????

Geez talk about crossing your fingers behind your back, Russ!

Some blessings will be disguised as hardships, brothers and sisters.

Exactly. He's admitting you don't need religion at all, because...well, the blessings will vary.

Why pay 10% for success, happiness and blessings that other people get for free? He can't even give you a percentage rate for their claims being correct.

And. How about Russ get the guts to weigh in on the old saying, "God helps them that help themselves"?

Since the best way to help yourself, though, is to not pay tithing, this is tricky.

LOL. He could add a disclaimer!

It reminds me of those Medical disclaimers for all us older folks.

One of my favorite is, "May cause death." For something that is supposed to help you control and\or resolve a medical issue.

With such a broad disclaimer, it just shows that the God of man is not as perfect\effective as is claimed. And there goes the prophet knows all claims.

Jesus said our bodies were temples. He predicted the temple in Jerusalem would be completely destroyed. Jesus never said build temples. He said the temple is us.

LDS Temples exist to extort loyalty to the church and to provide secrecy. It’s a secret clubhouse and nothing more.

The church went from being people trying to build a communal Zion, to a business to a corporation. The church has become very monetarily successful and this has allowed it to throw its weight around with lawyers. Remember power corrupts. Most people don’t handle it well and the church has amassed a lot of power.

The Jesus of the Bible was a champion of the poor, rural Jews who either could not attend the temple at all, or who brought only the most meager of offerings (and were therefore looked down upon by the wealthier Jews and the priestly class.) He also championed people who were regarded at the time as being "unclean" and therefore not temple-worthy, i.e. the physically and mentally handicapped. If you had any number of common, visible diseases or conditions such as epilepsy, lameness, etc. you were not permitted to go to the temple as you were considered unclean.

When you commit a person to baptism during the 2nd discussion (out of 6 full discussions) you proceed to stress the importance of being obedient to church doctrine of paying tithing and following the word of wisdom (4th discussion). I had this companion who promised a potential convert that he would find a better/higher paying job than the one he currently had. Knowing that there were so MANY outside variables (skills, education, trainings, interview skills and who-you-know) greatly determine whether one will be hired.

I knee'ed him (obvious to the people we were teaching), but better than calling him outright to bring it to his attention that I disagreed with his promise of paying tithing. My companion also made it known that he didn't appreciate the knee rub. I asked him to stop making that promise because it wasn't true. He claims that his dad did indeed get a better job after being fired but with the diligence of paying tithing. I told him that it didn't pass my smell test of being true.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2023 01:48PM by messygoop.

If blessings don’t come it’s all your fault.

I started a 'jokey' response about how sometimes it's a test, but then it occurred to me that ghawd already knows what your response will be, so that supports the notion that while he knows, you don't...

So does that mean ghawd is pruning the twigs and leaves that WOULD fail if temptation (and not too much, because he admits that wouldn't be fair...) flirted while not letting others attend out-of-town conventions and thus not be tempted?

Ghawd knew they would fall for the temptation(s), but he had to prove it to them so they'd know that's why they didn't get to move back in with mom and ghawd?

"I, almighty ghawd, am offended when inferior souls pretend to have superior status, and so I will humble those souls so that all can gossip about them and feel sorry for their spouses and children, except the middle kid, who is also too big for her britches...  I'm only putting this whole mortal life thing so that all of you can watch the videos for all eternity."



Philosophically, one wonders why the Capo de Tuti Capos didn't just snap his fingers and create in one instant all that we have today and will have through all the eternities, with all of us having the memories of what we would have gone through if we'd gone through it...

Plus, do you (and I'm not just looking at Rainbow Boy and Gladys Lot) really exist?

So . . .Are we really just Artificial Intelligence? Been that all along? Could be, well. . . except for the intelligence part.

thread they have over on fb. I sent this sentence to my TBM aunt. "You will be found in holy places serving the lord and will not be called upon to suffer unduly at any time."

I'm not sure where I went wrong, but then again I've been told consistently by men who were or are leaders that it is my fault he cheated as I didn't satisfy him sexually.

The whole experience showed me the leaders don't have a clue about anything. I never was big into blessings as my dad didn't give us blessings. I didn't know many fathers gave their kids blessings, etc. Not a big deal. But I asked the bishop for blessings during my gay courtship days and I'd fast and pray for days and think this time I'll get an answer. I've told this before. It was as though heaven was slammed shut.

It was so very obvious they don't know what they are doing. They like to think they do. Play with peoples' lives. I couldn't go back if I wanted to.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2023 04:50PM by cl2.

the CYA of religions.

Mormon God is Omni-CYA.

He is the same yesterday, today, and forever: Constantly changing his mind. I think that is a side effect of having to know how many hairs are on the heads of everyone on the planet like it says in Luke 12:7. Which verse also says that is proof that God likes you more than the sparrows. What's he got against sparrows? All the ones I know are way better than people.

In a real heaven the birds and dogs would outnumber the people. Wait. What were we talking about?

Do you have a reference for this, please? I don't doubt it's real, I just wish to reuse it elsewhere.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2023/10/51nelson?lang=eng

When you search for 'Some who never pay tithing', it takes you to the talk above.

Even in https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/search?lang=eng&facet=general-conference&page=1&query=Some+who+never+pay+tithinglang=eng&facet=general-conference&page=1&query=Some+who+never+pay+tithing

It takes you to the same talk at conference. However, it seems the the printed talk has been modified. 'Some+who+never+pay+tithing' does not appear in the current version of the talk. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/search?

Apparently too much bad publicity on the talk required it to be changed, but the search engines remember.

If I am wrong let me know.

Eric



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2023 08:53AM by Eric K.