Idaho is still busy trying to make people miserable.

It was in the news that Federal court now allows Idaho's transgender bathroom law to be enforced.
"The law requires public schools to only allow students to use bathrooms and changing facilities that correspond to their biological sex."

https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/local/idaho-press/federal-court-allows-idahos-transgender-bathroom-law-enforced/277-2706b435-7233-4946-971b-a07d5f64feef

Imagine people following anyone they think is transgender to see what bathroom they enter. Imagine the perverts at schools who can hardly wait to check the genitals of everyone just to make sure.

You can bet certain types here in ID are hyped up to watch what transgenders are doing, just like they are busy trying to figure out who might be trying to get an abortion. Sheesh, why can't people just mind their own business and quit snooping into everyone's pants? I feel like Idaho is trying to imitate 17th century Puritans, except with guns and xenophobia.

There aren't that many trans people I know. They aren't perverts trying to watch someone else pee for cripes sakes. Leave them alone.

It's great to know how Idaho tax money is being spent. (Sigh)

...religion (which is basically human beings' emotional response to the world) for the philosophy behind this.

I think I've commented on this before, but one of my graduate business school professors once told me that he believed that human beings were always trying to control each other. While I (at least mentally) disagreed with him at the time, it looks like he has turned out to absolutely right.

One wonders what will happen when they run out of new "enemies" to fear...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2023 09:35PM by anybody.

They will find new enemies, real or imaginary. The EV leaders have to keep the rabble roused with pitchforks in one hand, torches in the other as they point out which castle contains this week’s monster. They have no choice lest the crowd decides the leaders are the problem and turns on them.

I'm 63. I've never known or met anyone trans, as far as I know, which makes me think that the "moralizers" are making a lot of fuss about an issue which, while very important for the individuals personally involved, is marginal to extremely rare in general terms - and therefore unlikely to represent a threat, even if you believe their paranoia. These people feed off scapegoats, they need them to exist. It helps them avoid facing up to their own fundamental emptiness.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2023 03:49PM by Soft Machine.

I've met and known plenty of gay people, but if I've ever met a trans person, I haven't been aware of it -- which means they are blending in rather well.

Teachers have enough to worry about without policing the bathrooms. As long as the students don't tear the bathroom apart, we're good. I imagine that teachers will just let trans students use the adult bathrooms (which are often genderless,) to keep the peace. We don't have the time for this sort of foolishness dreamed up by state legislators.

I agree with your posts. This is a very minor deal, just get over it.

When I am in the bathroom I am usually just hoping to either make it in time or be able to go at all.

The last thing on my mind is who else is in there. I don't want to know. I don't care if it's a six hundred pound gorilla in a polka dot dress, pearls, and work boots. Don't look at me and I won't look at you.

"A six hundred pound gorilla in a polka dot dress, pearls, and work boots."

This would be adorable. :)

Sad for alt lifestyle folks in Idaho & everywhere,

Glad all the wacko fundies are comfortable there & not in Washington or Oregon or BC;

Utah … remains a toss-up I guess, but still hopeful as I have some sane friends there.

Since it's an Idaho bathroom, I'd be much more concerned about a U.S. senator on the prowl than a trans person. (Looking at you, Larry Craig — metaphorically, of course.)

LOL. Whenever I hear the words bathroom and Idaho, I think of Larry Craig too! What a clown show.

I try to avoid public restrooms when I drive up to my sister's as it is. I hate public restrooms.

The transgender boogyman being used to frighten gullible people once again.

I used to post here a lot many years ago. I think some of you do not understand the reality of what is going on with young people right now. I hesitate to even post this, but I just need to push back.

I am the mother of a 17 year old son who has identified as a pan-sexual demi girl for the past 3 years. You guys, it's not what you think. I am running into the exact same doublespeak and religious thinking that I discovered when I left the church.

There is no scientific basis for this. The suicide rate skyrockets in people (including kids) AFTER they start medicalizing. The process to start puberty blockers and cross sex hormones is a rubber stamp at this point. There is no therapy available to help kids understand themselves better - it is only so they can get approved for medical treatment. Exploratory therapy has now been labeled "conversion therapy" by the pro-intervention side of this debate, and is almost impossible to find anymore. There is no diagnostic criteria for who would be a good candidate for intervention, so the therapists just say "Yes, this kid really believes this about themselves" and you are sent straight to the gender clinic.

30% of my son's grade at his school are currently identifying as trans, and many of them are already on medicine. Puberty blockers are NOT reversible. They are NOT a pause button. Parents who want accurate information are forced into forums like this one - anonymous with strict vetting before you reveal your personal situation.

Please do not fall into the trap of thinking this is just another bogeyman created by right wing bigots. I have been staunchly liberal, pro-choice, LGB affirming since I left the church 25 years ago. This is a mental health crisis in our youth. My child does not deserve to have life-long medical complications from an experimental treatment that has no significant evidence base of efficacy. I know this because I am a scientist and my background in searching for the truth behind Mormonism prepared me to look into this when I was trying to help my son.

I am asking you to use the same type of rational inquiry that you used to extract yourself from the church to examine this issue as well. Don't dismiss people because they have been labeled "Anti" or "bigot". Listen to what their arguments are. If you still disagree, I can respect that. But I am part of a group of hundreds of parents who are liberal, loving and supportive of our kids, and want quality information and evidence based practice for our kids. Not jokes about genital checks in the bathrooms.

https://segm.org/
https://pitt.substack.com/

I agree with you 100%. I know a ton of people who do. Most everyone I know actually. But the ones causing this crisis in the youth are the only ones who have the microphone it appears.

My only point with this thread is I don't really care who is in the bathroom. There just should be doors on stalls and dividers between urinals.

My aunt became my uncle back in the seventies. First time I saw him after the surgery etc was in the men's bathroom at my Grandpa's funeral. New uncle lived a long way away but his previously good life completely fell apart after that though everyone was supportive. The transition made it all worse. That is an isolated case, but the person inside seemed to die when the outside was "re-aligned."

I have met a lot of trans since. I am not seen much proof it makes things better. You are on the right track. It's more about working on the inside, the heart, the brain that matters.

Your post was perfect. Good people are being fooled.

I used to take your position. However, that was before this huge surge of teens who are declaring themselves to be the opposite gender. This is becoming a very dangerous situation for girls, especially at school. In the town next to mine (not Utah, but in the west) a 14 year old girl was repeatedly sexually assaulted in her middle school bathroom. She did not tell anyone for months, because it had been made clear at her school that the girls were not allowed to complain about biological boys in their bathroom if the boys identified as trans. She was afraid of being punished for bullying and she did not want to be a bully.

There are more and more reports of girls not using the bathrooms at school because they are afraid of the boys (like my son) who are declaring themselves female. They are afraid of using the changing rooms at school, including at my son's school, because the boys who say they are girls stare and make inappropriate comments. They are afraid to go to the adults because it has been made clear to them that complaining is transphobia.

There is no way to differentiate between what types of biological males are safe around girls in the school bathrooms. There is no list or set of rules to say that this boy who says he is a girl is a "real" trans teen, and this other boy is mentally ill or lying or dangerous. There is no diagnostic criteria. We are teaching our girls to keep quiet when they believe they are in danger.

I'm not buying this. This is narrative right off of anti tran reporting media.

Why don't YOU go to the school and tell them if they can police what bathrooms trans kids are entering, they can also track what bathrooms boys (like your son) are entering. The bullying boys should be subjected to whatever is done to trans kids.

Sexual assault is something that can happen anywhere, like church or scouts. Do you want to talk about the therapy that caused too?

Teach your kids to report sexual harassments and bullying. Teach people (like your son) not to be a jerk and show some respect.

I know what it sounds like Dagny. I've been discussing this with my son's school for 3 years. I know you from 15-20 years ago when I was posting before. I was told by my son's school that they are not the bathroom police. They can't tell who the trans kids are anymore. My son sometimes identifies as a girl, and on those days he uses the girl's bathroom. My daughter goes to the same school. She hears what the girls are saying.

I am not relying on any media anymore. I can't tell who is lying. I can only tell you what I am experiencing myself as I navigate this with my family. I can provide you with the local news report about this young girl. The entire administration at the charter school resigned because of this.

There are many more gender-variant people than trans people, and some kids aren't sure. There is also pressure, both internal and external. There are a small number of trans kids who consitantly tell their parents who and what they are from a very early age, even as young as three or four years old. I've not seen any evidence yet that giving kids blockers to reduce unwanted body development before they are of legal age is damaging.


Years ago, I read a description of how some Plains Indian native tribes handled "Two Spirit" kids at their coming of age ceremony (like a bar/bat mitzvah, around 12-13). Before they announced what their adult name would be, they were given either a bow and arrow or a basket. Once they made their choice, the tribe regarded them as their self-proffessed gender from that time forward. If traditional tribal people could deal with this, why can't so-called modern "civilised" people? It seems that adults cause more problems than the kids.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_for_Evidence-Based_Gender_Medicine

"The Society For Evidence-Based Gender Medicine (SEGM) is a non-profit organization that is known for opposing standards of care for transgender youth and engaging in political lobbying. The group routinely cites the theory of rapid-onset gender dysphoria and has claimed that conversion therapy can only be practiced on the basis of sexual orientation rather than gender identity.[1] SEGM is often cited in anti-transgender legislation and court cases, sometimes providing evidence briefs themselves.[2][1] It is not officially recognized as a scientific organization by the international medical community.[3][4][5]

Researchers at the Yale School of Medicine issued a report which described SEGM as a small group of anti-trans activists.[6][7] Joshua Safer, a spokesperson for the Endocrine Society, described them as outside the medical mainstream.[4]

SEGM is closely affiliated with Genspect: seven advisors to SEGM are on Genspect's team of advisors, including Stella O'Malley,[8] Genspect's founder.[9]"

"SEGM made a submission[10] in defense of the state of Arizona's ban on Medicaid coverage for transgender healthcare.[1] In it, they advanced the controversial idea of rapid-onset gender dysphoria (ROGD), which suggests a subtype of gender dysphoria caused by peer influence and social contagion. ROGD has been condemned as unevidenced and nonscientific by the majority of the worlds' major psychological bodies."

"Malone and fellow SEGM member Colin Wright asserted in a September 2019 Quillette article that counselling can can address "any trauma or thought processes that have caused them" to identify as transgender.[1] The American Academy of Pediatrics have said that "conversion" or "reparative" treatment models such as this have been used to deter children and adolescents from displaying non-cisgender gender identities and gender expressions.[1][18] The Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration has said that any therapeutic interventions that seek to change a child or adolescent's gender identity or gender expression are inappropriate and may cause harm.

Regarding Genspect

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genspect

"Genspect is an international group founded in June 2021 by psychotherapist Stella O'Malley that describes itself as gender-critical.[1][2][3][4] Genspect is known for criticizing and opposing gender-affirming care, as well as social and medical transition for transgender people.[5][6] Genspect opposes allowing transgender people under 25 years old to transition,[7][8][9] opposes laws that would ban conversion therapy on the basis of gender identity,[10] and opposes public health coverage for transgender healthcare at any age.[7] Genspect also endorses the concept of rapid-onset gender dysphoria (ROGD), which proposes a subclass of gender dysphoria caused by peer influence and social contagion. ROGD has been rejected by major medical organisations due to its lack of evidence and likelihood to cause harm by stigmatizing gender-affirming care.[11][12][13]

Genspect's positions are contradicted by major medical organizations such as the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), the Endocrine Society, the American Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association, and the American Academy of Pediatrics, which states "robust evidence demonstrates that access to gender-affirming care decreases risk of suicidal ideations, improves mental health, and improves the overall health and well-being of transgender and gender-diverse youth".[14][10][12][15][16]"

"In August 2022, Genspect and the Family Education Trust signed a letter criticizing Drag Queen Story Hours and calling for them to be stopped, saying it was "age-inappropriate" for "men dressed as grotesque versions of women" to read stories to primary school children."

Also see this long article on the medical aspect (which also mentions SEGM)

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/a-critical-look-at-the-nice-review/

Birdie, I have a serious problem with this assertion:

> 30% of my son's grade at his school are currently
> identifying as trans. . .

I have children in two different high schools. We live in a relatively permissive part of the country, so people are much more likely to be open about their sexuality. My kids bring home gay classmates fairly frequently. I also know, through my children and their networks, a couple of trans kids and additionally have two personal friends who have a trans child each, which extends my understanding of the situation in at least four different local high schools.

My experience makes it impossible to believe that 30% of any class identifies as trans. I could see two or three percent, perhaps, although I suspect even that is a significant overstatement. But 30%? That is simply incredible given what I have seen of the world.

Notice she mentioned it was a charter school. I'll bet two cents it might be religiously affiliated but who knows. Just saying. Either way, the school might have amplified flaming gender issues under every rock. They can't quietly designate one private bathroom as gender free and monitor what is going on?

Maybe some kids question their gender because they like the attention and aggravation it causes.

Even then, I don't know how one could assign a percentage to it.

Who came up with the number and on what basis?

Is there a question on registration forms?

Does the school nurse inspect the students to identify "discrepancies?"

Does the local medical community report to the school district in violation of its HIPAA obligations?

My son goes to a secular charter school in a large western city. We are atheists and not at all religious. It is a college prep school. There are 162 students in his grade. 49 of them identify as trans in his grade according to my son who was using it to prove to me that "everyone else" was trans and we were the only parents who didn't immediately take him to the gender clinic to get started on hormones. I also confirmed the general size of this number with another parent in my son's friend group and the dean of students. My entire point is it is implausible. There is no way this is a real thing, but the kids involved think its real. It feels real to them. I do think this is a way to freak out the adults and declare their independence, but if it weren't for the medical side of this, I would even think it is healthy.

But I was also incredulous and very skeptical. It was hard to take really seriously when he was telling us all of the kids who were now "trans" at school. When I asked the dean of his year (3 years ago) about this, I was told it was the cool thing to do, and that it wasn't a big deal. I'll admit that I don't know how many are currently identifying as trans, but it's a lot. You just have to look through the yearbook and start seeing how many have changed their names. I've known these kids since the 6th grade. At first, I treated it as a journey he was on, and just let him know I loved him no matter what, as did his dad and his sisters.

So why did my son start cutting AFTER he came out and everyone, including us, supported him? Why did he end up in the hospital AFTER the school allowed him to change his name and pronouns in the school records (didn't need our permission because he is over 16, and in our state he is allowed to.) This is the point at which I started actually doing real research. I was desperate to help him, and I couldn't get answers that made any sense to me. He is 17 now. We have been to so many therapists, both individual, family and marital, trying to figure out how to let our son know we still love him but also get him to be mentally stable before he starts making big medical decisions that could cause him life-long effects. This is just proof to him that we hate him. The therapists we've seen agree that he is not mentally stable. One suggested he was suffering from acute psychosis. He isn't. He was being coached by his friends at school how to appear "dissociated" during therapy so that he could get hormones. I have the texts to prove it, which were discovered after he was hospitalized for self harm.

I know that several of the kids in his grades have started cross sex hormones from the puberty blockers they were on before. They are struggling, and are having health problems which they didn't have before. I see these kids all the time. I keep my mouth shut, because this conversation is so polarizing. You can't express any skepticism at all without being viewed as hateful.

There is a gender neutral restroom at school. The kids don't want to use it because it either singles them out as being trans, or singles them out about being uncomfortable with trans.

The law in my state is that all people are legally allowed to use the bathroom of their choice. The school would be in legal trouble if they were to forbid anyone from using the bathroom of their choice, because of many of the arguments presented here.

I do not want any child singled out or made uncomfortable, but I am living this crazy situation here and I see so many people not understanding what the real situation is for those of us with kids who struggle with gender identity. I am trying so hard to be supportive of my child and his distress, but I feel hamstrung. I can't get honest answers about my concerns from anyone in a position of authority. I just get called names, or rolled eyes, or told that my position is at odds with the establishment. Since when are those evidences that can be used to support a position? I am afraid to push back at school anymore because of the blowback I have already received. I just keep trying to love my child and give him/she/they the support needed, but people do not understand how difficult this is.

I love my son, and if he someday he achieves his goal of becoming "70%" female (which is based off of a quiz about gender he took with his friend group), I will still love him. I have not kicked him out. I do not shame him when he wears a dress to the prom (and Homecoming, and Spring Fling). But my whole reason for posting this was to point out that NO ONE can tell who the "real" trans kids are anymore, and which ones are confused, and which ones have other mental health conditions, and which ones are gay and trying to find a way to feel comfortable with themselves, and which ones are just playing along, etc. That's the part I think people don't understand unless they are saturated with this. There is NO WAY TO TELL, even from the medical professionals.

Thank you for this additional information. I don't have many more ideas as to what might going on there.
Peer pressure? Rebellion? Experimentation?

I'm not one for much medical intervention prior to puberty. I do wish we had more focus on therapy.

Agreed and agreed.

Thank you. I believe it is really important for people to see this isn't quite the black and white issue that I used to believe it was. I think it is all of that (peer pressure, rebellion, and experimentation), but I think there is also a real mental health crisis going on with our youth. They are so dissociated, so depressed, and having a really hard time navigating the difficult parts of life which seem a lot worse than I remember growing up.

I truly have so much compassion for my son and all other kids who are struggling with this, and it bothers me a lot that this has become low hanging grist for the Republican party. I don't feel my kid should be used as political fuel. But I am also really frustrated with the Democrats, because instead of having serious conversations about what is going on, families like mine are completely dismissed and accused of being secretly right wing or hateful.

The bathroom bills are tough for me, because now that I am living it I can see both sides. My daughter is suffering because of this out of control situation at school, my son is in distress and trying to cope, but making the girls feel uncomfortable and unsafe, the school doesn't know what to do because common sense says one thing and the law says something else, the parents are advocating for opposite positions, and the doctors keep rubber stamping medical interventions (the good ones won't even see my son anymore - they don't want to deal with it.) The pressure on the kids is intense and unrelenting.

I appreciate anyone willing to listen to me and consider what I am saying. Everything I have said is true to my experience. I can't prove it without doxing myself, but it is what I have been living for 3 years now.

>> I do wish we had more focus on therapy.

Schools are starting to do a much better job of addressing mental health issues.

I think it's natural for teens to want to experiment with their identities and different ways of thinking. Maybe the best approach would be to tell teens who think they are transgender, "We will assist you to live as the opposite sex for at least the next couple of years. During that time you will dress, groom, and in every other respect adopt your chosen sex. If at the end of that period of time, it still seems like a good fit for you, then we can discuss further options when you turn 18."

If that many students were identifying as transgender, I would have heard about it (being a school teacher who is very well connected with my colleagues in my large urban district and also nationwide.) The CDC puts the number at 1.8%, and honestly, I think even that is high.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/68/wr/mm6803a3.htm

I have credited the LDS organization with adding to the accumulation of more neagative sexuality issues facing my children.

Couldn't this problem be solved by adding a few genderless restrooms?

Yup, and that's the solution I would go with. It's just like malls which have options for men, women, and families. When I was on crutches, the large family stall was perfect. Parents love it, too, because there is an adult-sized toilet and a child-sized toilet right next to it in the spacious stall. Sometimes the solution is not that hard.

There are very, very few trans kids and fewer still who actually are able to and allowed by their parents to transition.

I don't feel there's a lot of acceptance in your comments, you don't seem willing to refer to your daughter as your daughter, and I also detect a "this is a fad that's being pushed on kids and if left alone it will just go away" type sentiment.

Not True.

I know several families with trans kids who had to flee red states just like people fleeing Nazi Germany. Their kids were happy and well adjusted because their parents accepted them, and that helped dealing with the bad stuff dumped on them from the outside world. But bullying is one thing, hate and death threats are something else.

I'll just say this:

You've provided proof that the common horror scenario of some fourteen year old boy just saying they are female to get in to the girls locker room a'la a bad 80s movie like "Porky's" isn't going to happen.

Why Not? Because medication and rules are no substitute for acceptance from family and friends, or a shield from ridicule and bullying. No kid is going to go through all that just for a quick thrill. They'd be more likely to hide a cell phone in the ceiling to take pictures that go to all that trouble.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/18/2023 09:04PM by anybody.

While I appreciate Birdie's point, I don't think I necessarily agree when it comes to bathroom laws.

I'm fairly confident that in Idaho, where the law was passed, it was not based on complex situations like her son. The average person here is blatantly anti trans. The bathroom law is a way to express their intolerance for trans people and a way to punish and humiliate them. Full stop.

They probably have no idea about the nuances of a pan sexual demi girl and no interest in therapy for them.

I still think something is off in the specific school Birdie's kids attend. I also wonder if one reason the daughter thinks there is so much chatter about it is because her brother is the one rotating bathroom visits. If he is a part time girl but doesn't act and live like a girl all the time, the school should provide an alternative bathroom for him IMO. I can't imagine Birdie trying to work through this with school administration that seems clueless. Empathy all around from me.

My child does not identify as my "daughter". My child identifies as part girl and part boy. He accepts both male and female pronouns, and also refers to himself as genderfluid, which means day to day he feels more boy or more girl. Not all of these kids are the same.

Gender identity and sexuality are not the same thing at all. The are completely different categories, according to all of the experts I've been in contact with over the last 3 years.

One of our children approached me several years ago and said s/he suspected s/he was gay. I didn't know how to respond except that I would regret it if I got things wrong.

So I concealed my sudden panic and said, "Well, let me know when you figure things out." I thought that a good way to suggest that the question was not abnormal or critical; that it was irrelevant to my child's relationship with me, Lot, and the family.

A few years later s/he was dating exclusively heterosexually, so I guess s/he succeeded in deciding what "fit." And in the meantime I had avoided saying the wrong thing at what could have been a very dangerous juncture.

This isn't meant as advice; I'm just summarizing my anecdotal experience.

May not be advice but is pure gold added to this conversation.