Recovery Board
: RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
Although we sometimes don't agree, I am usually grateful for the amount & quality of LW's research; I know I don't have the time to do as much as she did...
I'm offering kudo's and a atta-woman to her for her contributions here, Good Job!
LW- I surmise a few here know a bit more about your background re Mormonism, I hope you post a brief outline of yourself.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2023 10:02PM by GNPE.
I'm offering kudo's and a atta-woman to her for her contributions here, Good Job!
LW- I surmise a few here know a bit more about your background re Mormonism, I hope you post a brief outline of yourself.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2023 10:02PM by GNPE.
That's nice of you to say, and I agree.
She's nobody's fool. I've learned a lot of weird stuff from her over time.
She's nobody's fool. I've learned a lot of weird stuff from her over time.
Thank you, GNPE. That means a lot.
On a different topic, were you once the GNPE who posted on FLAK long ago?
On a different topic, were you once the GNPE who posted on FLAK long ago?
YW;
Old age is taking its toll here, I don't recall what FLAK is or was, so I guess that was possible (sigh).
Old age is taking its toll here, I don't recall what FLAK is or was, so I guess that was possible (sigh).
Further Light and Knowledge, one of the early ex-mormon boards. He was a sensitive and insightful man.
It was known first as "A View from the Foyer." I miss that board.
HH =)
HH =)
I do too. So many interesting and thoughtful posters. . .
Guy Noir Private Eye's ex-wife came here briefly but then disappeared.
Guy Noir Private Eye's ex-wife came here briefly but then disappeared.
I bet I'm not the first woman to have heard that from you, Jesus.
Please leave elderolddog alone.
He reminds me of so many of my Hispanic relatives in northern New Mexico. They try to do something nice for someone and things go totally haywire. But they just smile at you, pick themselves up, try to do better next time, and never holding a grudge.
He reminds me of so many of my Hispanic relatives in northern New Mexico. They try to do something nice for someone and things go totally haywire. But they just smile at you, pick themselves up, try to do better next time, and never holding a grudge.
Oh, I hold Jesus in exceptionally high regard. He has a lighting fast mind combined with a delightful sense of irreverence. A giant among men, I thought, until I met him in person and discovered he couldn't join me on most of the Disney rides.
But yes, he's a fascinating man and friend.
But yes, he's a fascinating man and friend.
> LW- I surmise a few here know a bit more about
> your background re Mormonism, I hope you post a
> brief outline of yourself.
Allow me
In my less lucid moments, I play a game called "What the heck did Gladys study?"
Given her overall circumspection, I expect no response to my musings, although Jesus might pipe in, no doubt
I think she did an undergrad in math/econ/philosophy, then went to law school
That is my best bet for our salty friend
Like others, I appreciate her thoughts here, especially when she susses out our habitual Canadian lurker.
Still wondering if he ever contacted CZ?
> your background re Mormonism, I hope you post a
> brief outline of yourself.
Allow me
In my less lucid moments, I play a game called "What the heck did Gladys study?"
Given her overall circumspection, I expect no response to my musings, although Jesus might pipe in, no doubt
I think she did an undergrad in math/econ/philosophy, then went to law school
That is my best bet for our salty friend
Like others, I appreciate her thoughts here, especially when she susses out our habitual Canadian lurker.
Still wondering if he ever contacted CZ?
I LaRue they day I met her...
> In my less lucid moments, I play a game called
> "What the heck did Gladys study?"
I recommend finding a healthier hobby like gambling or crystal meth.
----------------
> Given her overall circumspection, I expect no
> response to my musings, although Jesus might pipe
> in, no doubt
Ignoring the implicit threat in the latter half of your sentence, I will reveal a bit, at least some of which is true. I grew up in a very Mormon family and a very Mormon community. It was stifling: no matter how hard I tried to fit in, I could not.
So I went on a mission--brilliant choice, no?--which exposed me to a wonderful culture and people and languages but otherwise didn't work out well. A few of us challenged the MP on things we thought were unethical and consequently were almost excommunicated. By the time I went home I realized I could never be happy among Mormons.
So I ran!
----------------
> I think she did an undergrad in
> math/econ/philosophy, then went to law school
Fortunately I was a good student and found several institutions that were sequentially willing to finance my long and varied education. Oh, the places I went and the things that I did.
Anyway, I have no degrees in those topics although all are subjects I studied in considerable depth while pursuing my main interests. I was one of the Thick Spectacles crowd, so nerdy that even dagny would have felt embarrassed in my company. I read advanced math textbooks on vacations, took courses on option theory and stochastic processes for fun, perused law to understand its relationship with economic development and social order, and read religion and philosophy before turning out the lights. I lived and studied in several countries and had all sorts of wild experiences that were not at all academic.
My professional career has been eclectic, involving all of those fields and others at one time or another and often simultaneously. The ability to see connections between widely divergent subjects is bliss to me, and I thank Karma daily for having been able to spend so very many years studying so many different things.
--------------
> That is my best bet for our salty friend
I'm glad to see you embarking on that new and healthier hobby!
---------------
> Like others, I appreciate her thoughts here,
> especially when she susses out our habitual
> Canadian lurker.
I used to think Disco Dave had the best troll. Now I have two or three of my own. But having never written incoherently or completely misunderstood a philosopher, Dave's is still the best.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/2023 06:11PM by Lot's Wife.
> "What the heck did Gladys study?"
I recommend finding a healthier hobby like gambling or crystal meth.
----------------
> Given her overall circumspection, I expect no
> response to my musings, although Jesus might pipe
> in, no doubt
Ignoring the implicit threat in the latter half of your sentence, I will reveal a bit, at least some of which is true. I grew up in a very Mormon family and a very Mormon community. It was stifling: no matter how hard I tried to fit in, I could not.
So I went on a mission--brilliant choice, no?--which exposed me to a wonderful culture and people and languages but otherwise didn't work out well. A few of us challenged the MP on things we thought were unethical and consequently were almost excommunicated. By the time I went home I realized I could never be happy among Mormons.
So I ran!
----------------
> I think she did an undergrad in
> math/econ/philosophy, then went to law school
Fortunately I was a good student and found several institutions that were sequentially willing to finance my long and varied education. Oh, the places I went and the things that I did.
Anyway, I have no degrees in those topics although all are subjects I studied in considerable depth while pursuing my main interests. I was one of the Thick Spectacles crowd, so nerdy that even dagny would have felt embarrassed in my company. I read advanced math textbooks on vacations, took courses on option theory and stochastic processes for fun, perused law to understand its relationship with economic development and social order, and read religion and philosophy before turning out the lights. I lived and studied in several countries and had all sorts of wild experiences that were not at all academic.
My professional career has been eclectic, involving all of those fields and others at one time or another and often simultaneously. The ability to see connections between widely divergent subjects is bliss to me, and I thank Karma daily for having been able to spend so very many years studying so many different things.
--------------
> That is my best bet for our salty friend
I'm glad to see you embarking on that new and healthier hobby!
---------------
> Like others, I appreciate her thoughts here,
> especially when she susses out our habitual
> Canadian lurker.
I used to think Disco Dave had the best troll. Now I have two or three of my own. But having never written incoherently or completely misunderstood a philosopher, Dave's is still the best.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/2023 06:11PM by Lot's Wife.
Cabbie had the best troll ever. Some may remember "Pretty One".
"...stochastic processes for fun..."
you are such a Wiener
I have a freaking undergrad in math and found sigma fields et al difficult.
Can't imagine doing it for "fun"
thanks for the reply Gladys.
Nice to have a friendship link with a Renaissance woman (pillar?)
you are such a Wiener
I have a freaking undergrad in math and found sigma fields et al difficult.
Can't imagine doing it for "fun"
thanks for the reply Gladys.
Nice to have a friendship link with a Renaissance woman (pillar?)
Lottie, you seem like an academic...and yet not an academic -- as if you are more accustomed to applying your knowledge in the wider world. I have long admired your breadth of knowledge.
That's not an incorrect surmise. I love academics, particularly where they intersect with the real world.
Which is why, as you know, I teach preschool!
Which is why, as you know, I teach preschool!
A Sunday school teacher was telling the story of Lot's Wife looking back and turning into a pillar of salt.
Little Johnny piped up that his mother looked back once while driving.
Teacher asked what happened.
"She turned into a telephone pole".
I know. That old joke still make me laugh. And so does Lot's Wife. Especially when heckled by EOD. But the best is I'd say LW looks *every* direction. Sometimes all at once. That is a great gift. The sodium content seems very balanced to me.
Little Johnny piped up that his mother looked back once while driving.
Teacher asked what happened.
"She turned into a telephone pole".
I know. That old joke still make me laugh. And so does Lot's Wife. Especially when heckled by EOD. But the best is I'd say LW looks *every* direction. Sometimes all at once. That is a great gift. The sodium content seems very balanced to me.
Referring to Gladys Lot, D&D reports:
>The sodium content seems very balanced to me.
Yeah, she's baking soda, a salt that breaks down to form sodium and bicarbonate in water, which makes her an alkaline solution, meaning she can neutralize acid. However, The Cat refuses to believe it.
>The sodium content seems very balanced to me.
Yeah, she's baking soda, a salt that breaks down to form sodium and bicarbonate in water, which makes her an alkaline solution, meaning she can neutralize acid. However, The Cat refuses to believe it.
You kill me. Sometimes I want to be like you. But then I get hold of myself.
Lot’s Wife is the salt of the earth.
I would be inclined to agree with you, but then I remember her "I'm not transphobic but, (fearmongering about trans girls and how they're a threat women's sports)." I was browbeat into an apologies I shouldn't have given and moved into a place with my girlfriend (note to Susan I/S: thank you for recommending using shirts to wrap plates and glass. Nothing broke and it saved on boxes!) and came back here after a little more research.
Here's a link to an NPR article about the scientific basis for banning trans athletes, and it's quite interesting.
https://www.npr.org/2021/03/18/978716732/wave-of-new-bills-say-trans-athletes-have-an-unfair-edge-what-does-the-science-s
From an interview with geneticist Dr. Eric Vilain I found interesting,
"We know that men have, on average, an advantage in performance in athletics of about 10% to 12% over women, which the sports authorities have attributed to differences in levels of a male hormone called testosterone. But the question is whether there is in real life, during actual competitions, an advantage of performance linked to this male hormone and whether trans athletes are systematically winning all competitions. The answer to this latter question, are trans athletes winning everything, is simple — that's not the case. And higher levels of the male hormone testosterone are associated with better performance only in a very small number of athletic disciplines: 400 meters, 800 meters, hammer throw, pole vault — and it certainly does not explain the whole 10% difference.
"And lastly, I would say that every sport requires different talents and anatomies for success. So I think we should focus on celebrating this diversity, rather than focusing on relative notions of fairness. For example, the body of a marathon runner is extremely different from the body of a shot put champion, and a transwoman athlete may have some advantage on the basketball field because of her height, but would be at a disadvantage in gymnastics. So it's complicated."
So, it's not as simple as "testosterone is like Bane's Venom" and "once a male, always a male." Who'da thunk?
Oh yeah, anybody and me.
And what happened? A boomer tantrum over "our agenda" (which was, what again? I can never remember, was it "glitter bomb a militia" or "steal every cop's right bootlace?") and dismissed because we don't have kids and "boys and girls are different!" and "you're insulting me for not wanting to protect women* in sports!"
*Terms and Conditions Apply.
I know I should go easier since we were in a cult that gave the Priesthood to one gender like the penis is a magic meat wand, but people I care about get caught up in this argument against trans folks. I know I apologized to Lot's Wife, summer, and Done & Done, but I've had time to think.
One of the reasons I left Mormonism is because I felt I had to constantly compromise who I am to remain. When I left, I wanted to never do that again. I never wanted to feel that again.
You used bunk science to talk trash about trans folks, and I compromised to feel safe.
I apologized because I wanted to feel like I could still fit in on this board, to not deal with the shame of going against the elders. After spending time with the woman I love, I honestly don't give a fuck anymore.
You're a talented researcher, Lot's Wife, but you're as full of shit as Rubicon and macaRomney when it comes to trans "debate." And that goes for you too, summer and Done & Done.
I'm done compromising for people like you.
To Eric and Susan: I'm sorry this board has descended into a pit of transphobia. I kept suspecting I'd get blamed for calling them out for this and I'm done living with that suspicion. Thank you for all the years you've kept this board running and the help it once gave me.
Here's a link to an NPR article about the scientific basis for banning trans athletes, and it's quite interesting.
https://www.npr.org/2021/03/18/978716732/wave-of-new-bills-say-trans-athletes-have-an-unfair-edge-what-does-the-science-s
From an interview with geneticist Dr. Eric Vilain I found interesting,
"We know that men have, on average, an advantage in performance in athletics of about 10% to 12% over women, which the sports authorities have attributed to differences in levels of a male hormone called testosterone. But the question is whether there is in real life, during actual competitions, an advantage of performance linked to this male hormone and whether trans athletes are systematically winning all competitions. The answer to this latter question, are trans athletes winning everything, is simple — that's not the case. And higher levels of the male hormone testosterone are associated with better performance only in a very small number of athletic disciplines: 400 meters, 800 meters, hammer throw, pole vault — and it certainly does not explain the whole 10% difference.
"And lastly, I would say that every sport requires different talents and anatomies for success. So I think we should focus on celebrating this diversity, rather than focusing on relative notions of fairness. For example, the body of a marathon runner is extremely different from the body of a shot put champion, and a transwoman athlete may have some advantage on the basketball field because of her height, but would be at a disadvantage in gymnastics. So it's complicated."
So, it's not as simple as "testosterone is like Bane's Venom" and "once a male, always a male." Who'da thunk?
Oh yeah, anybody and me.
And what happened? A boomer tantrum over "our agenda" (which was, what again? I can never remember, was it "glitter bomb a militia" or "steal every cop's right bootlace?") and dismissed because we don't have kids and "boys and girls are different!" and "you're insulting me for not wanting to protect women* in sports!"
*Terms and Conditions Apply.
I know I should go easier since we were in a cult that gave the Priesthood to one gender like the penis is a magic meat wand, but people I care about get caught up in this argument against trans folks. I know I apologized to Lot's Wife, summer, and Done & Done, but I've had time to think.
One of the reasons I left Mormonism is because I felt I had to constantly compromise who I am to remain. When I left, I wanted to never do that again. I never wanted to feel that again.
You used bunk science to talk trash about trans folks, and I compromised to feel safe.
I apologized because I wanted to feel like I could still fit in on this board, to not deal with the shame of going against the elders. After spending time with the woman I love, I honestly don't give a fuck anymore.
You're a talented researcher, Lot's Wife, but you're as full of shit as Rubicon and macaRomney when it comes to trans "debate." And that goes for you too, summer and Done & Done.
I'm done compromising for people like you.
To Eric and Susan: I'm sorry this board has descended into a pit of transphobia. I kept suspecting I'd get blamed for calling them out for this and I'm done living with that suspicion. Thank you for all the years you've kept this board running and the help it once gave me.
ookami, I've always enjoyed your posts here! You are making a difference, no matter what you read. Progress is slow but steady.
It's good to hear you are doing OK. I hope you will continue to share your point of view on things. Some of us are still learning and considering all the issues. The more we hear from trans families, the more we understand what they face.
I admire you for showing us here that your trans relationship is full of love and respect.
It's good to hear you are doing OK. I hope you will continue to share your point of view on things. Some of us are still learning and considering all the issues. The more we hear from trans families, the more we understand what they face.
I admire you for showing us here that your trans relationship is full of love and respect.
Yes, what dagny said. Every word of it.
If I'd read her post first I wouldn't have written mine - taking 13x longer to say pretty much what dagny did in one skinny post.
If I'd read her post first I wouldn't have written mine - taking 13x longer to say pretty much what dagny did in one skinny post.
> I admire you for showing us here that your trans
> relationship is full of love and respect.
Emphatically agreed.
> relationship is full of love and respect.
Emphatically agreed.
Thanks dagny and Nightingale. I'm going to miss you two.
It's a bit odd, having a relationship with someone who treats me like a person, makes atrocious puns together, and gives me a happier life just by being in it. A contrast to what I grew up with.
Mormons hate us both and I thought that RfM would be better. Then posters made threads about trans sports. I made a post chewing them out for what they were saying, how they were describing trans folks like they weren't fully human. [some content edited out]
Posters I respected for years turned on me. Done & Done said my post contained "nothing of substance," summer clutched pearls at the idea that sports are games and whined about how allowing trans athletes would be "going against Title IX(2)" and brught back that same trick. Lot's Wife did the standard "I'm not transphobic, but (transphobic rant)."
Growing up, I was always taught to avoid conflict and be the peacemaker. As a Mormon, it meant "shut up, smile, apologize even if you were in the right." And the assholes of the world expect the same treatment from me; I never wanted to do it again. I wanted to be strong enough to stand up for myself.
But when posters I once respected used psuedoscience to support discrimination against people I care about, I just broke down and did what I always did; apologize, try to aviod bringing it up, and try not to vomit out what's left of my humanity. I hated living that way in Mormonism and I hate living that way out of it.
While I'm glad you and dagny are learning more, I wish I could say the same for other posters. ... It never is about what's fact based with trans discrimination. [some content edited out]
Mormonism and its idiotic ideas of gender fucked us up. Men in the church get spoonfed the idea that they're powerful for having a certain meat configuration and women get put down for their meat configuration. I say "meat configuration" because that's all the differences are in the end, how the meat of a person is arranged. There's nothing sacred about the uterus and the penis isn't a magic wand, it's meat. One of the reasons I consider myself bisexual is that I think some traits are attractive regardless of gender, physical and otherwise.
Or maybe some people just don't understand.
They claim they're "guarding women's sports," like trans athletes are an enemy. They're not; they're just humans who want to play games with other humans.
They claim it's to "ensure fairness," but get oddly quiet when asked to explain the International Olympic Committee's reasons for banning trans athletes from chess. The only explanation for that I can think of involves a telegram from the year 1860 requesting its misogynistic quackery back.
They claim they have "a difference of opinion to be respected" while their entire opinion is focused on excluding others. I will give opinions the respect they earn and "trans athletes should be singled out and excluded" earns disgust (3).
After seeing posters who I thought knew better defend and spout hate masked as concern, I can't stay here anymore. [some content edited out]. And they're going to keep pretending they're the victims when I'm just tired of their bigotry (4).
For years I kept thinking that most people were selfish assholes who would hurt others for a laugh. You and dagny had this habit of presenting evidence I might be wrong about that. One of the other reasons I was reluctant to stay angry was that I might lose touch with you two, Beth (5), kentish, catnip, and Lethbridge Reprobate. Ificouldhietokolob and I didn't always see eye to eye, but he was alright. I consider you all true friends throughout my time on the board.
Smooth sailing, dagny and Nightingale.
1. Ernst Röhm the first was a gay man born in modern Germany best known as the commander of the SA and aided a certain one-balled Scheißekopf from Austria turn the Weimar Republic into actual Nazi Germany. The Nazi party was homophobic from the beginning, but that didn't stop Röhm from supporting Hitler and the Party. In fact, he thought it would protect him. That changed on the Night of the Long Knives, when the SA were rounded up and executed by the SS. Thus ended the life of Ernst Röhm, militant member of the "Leopards Eating People's Faces Party."
2. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that argument is an example of the "Fuck you, I got mine!" or "I'm alright Jack, pull the ladder up" attitude. "I'm alright Jack" comes from the Royal Navy, so cut the crap about generational differences.
3. "It is disrespectful of you to not let me disrespect (target of bigotry!" That makes *what* kind of sense?
4. Hate isn't always white hoods and armbands. Most bigots figured out that people tend to believe their bullshit when they mask it with soft language. And even someone well-intentioned can buy into it with the right faux-worry. It's why "think of the children" is such a stupid but effective technique; it works and "normal" people will aid the bigots willingly. This also has the benefit of making the victims feel isolated, like no one is going to help them.
5. Someone please pass on a request to Beth: my girlfriend got me hooked on One Piece and we're catching up together. If you haven't already, please name a duck "Karoo." If you already have given a duck that name, excellent choice!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2023 04:46PM by Maude.
It's a bit odd, having a relationship with someone who treats me like a person, makes atrocious puns together, and gives me a happier life just by being in it. A contrast to what I grew up with.
Mormons hate us both and I thought that RfM would be better. Then posters made threads about trans sports. I made a post chewing them out for what they were saying, how they were describing trans folks like they weren't fully human. [some content edited out]
Posters I respected for years turned on me. Done & Done said my post contained "nothing of substance," summer clutched pearls at the idea that sports are games and whined about how allowing trans athletes would be "going against Title IX(2)" and brught back that same trick. Lot's Wife did the standard "I'm not transphobic, but (transphobic rant)."
Growing up, I was always taught to avoid conflict and be the peacemaker. As a Mormon, it meant "shut up, smile, apologize even if you were in the right." And the assholes of the world expect the same treatment from me; I never wanted to do it again. I wanted to be strong enough to stand up for myself.
But when posters I once respected used psuedoscience to support discrimination against people I care about, I just broke down and did what I always did; apologize, try to aviod bringing it up, and try not to vomit out what's left of my humanity. I hated living that way in Mormonism and I hate living that way out of it.
While I'm glad you and dagny are learning more, I wish I could say the same for other posters. ... It never is about what's fact based with trans discrimination. [some content edited out]
Mormonism and its idiotic ideas of gender fucked us up. Men in the church get spoonfed the idea that they're powerful for having a certain meat configuration and women get put down for their meat configuration. I say "meat configuration" because that's all the differences are in the end, how the meat of a person is arranged. There's nothing sacred about the uterus and the penis isn't a magic wand, it's meat. One of the reasons I consider myself bisexual is that I think some traits are attractive regardless of gender, physical and otherwise.
Or maybe some people just don't understand.
They claim they're "guarding women's sports," like trans athletes are an enemy. They're not; they're just humans who want to play games with other humans.
They claim it's to "ensure fairness," but get oddly quiet when asked to explain the International Olympic Committee's reasons for banning trans athletes from chess. The only explanation for that I can think of involves a telegram from the year 1860 requesting its misogynistic quackery back.
They claim they have "a difference of opinion to be respected" while their entire opinion is focused on excluding others. I will give opinions the respect they earn and "trans athletes should be singled out and excluded" earns disgust (3).
After seeing posters who I thought knew better defend and spout hate masked as concern, I can't stay here anymore. [some content edited out]. And they're going to keep pretending they're the victims when I'm just tired of their bigotry (4).
For years I kept thinking that most people were selfish assholes who would hurt others for a laugh. You and dagny had this habit of presenting evidence I might be wrong about that. One of the other reasons I was reluctant to stay angry was that I might lose touch with you two, Beth (5), kentish, catnip, and Lethbridge Reprobate. Ificouldhietokolob and I didn't always see eye to eye, but he was alright. I consider you all true friends throughout my time on the board.
Smooth sailing, dagny and Nightingale.
1. Ernst Röhm the first was a gay man born in modern Germany best known as the commander of the SA and aided a certain one-balled Scheißekopf from Austria turn the Weimar Republic into actual Nazi Germany. The Nazi party was homophobic from the beginning, but that didn't stop Röhm from supporting Hitler and the Party. In fact, he thought it would protect him. That changed on the Night of the Long Knives, when the SA were rounded up and executed by the SS. Thus ended the life of Ernst Röhm, militant member of the "Leopards Eating People's Faces Party."
2. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that argument is an example of the "Fuck you, I got mine!" or "I'm alright Jack, pull the ladder up" attitude. "I'm alright Jack" comes from the Royal Navy, so cut the crap about generational differences.
3. "It is disrespectful of you to not let me disrespect (target of bigotry!" That makes *what* kind of sense?
4. Hate isn't always white hoods and armbands. Most bigots figured out that people tend to believe their bullshit when they mask it with soft language. And even someone well-intentioned can buy into it with the right faux-worry. It's why "think of the children" is such a stupid but effective technique; it works and "normal" people will aid the bigots willingly. This also has the benefit of making the victims feel isolated, like no one is going to help them.
5. Someone please pass on a request to Beth: my girlfriend got me hooked on One Piece and we're catching up together. If you haven't already, please name a duck "Karoo." If you already have given a duck that name, excellent choice!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2023 04:46PM by Maude.
You are comparing those who disagree with your stance on transwomen in sports to the Nazis? Seriously?
As for calling me names, I'm an urban teacher. I've endured entire years of being called vile names to my face every single day by my students, and more, simply for greeting them at the door, or asking them nicely to get to work, or just for the sheer fun of it. That stuff bounces right off.
As for calling me names, I'm an urban teacher. I've endured entire years of being called vile names to my face every single day by my students, and more, simply for greeting them at the door, or asking them nicely to get to work, or just for the sheer fun of it. That stuff bounces right off.
summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are comparing those who disagree with your
> stance on transwomen in sports to the Nazis?
> Seriously?
https://www.hmd.org.uk/resource/6-may-1933-looting-of-the-institute-of-sexology/
Established in 1919, the Institute of Sexology was once the leading center of studying human sexuality and gender. In fact, the term "pass" apparently came from a pass that trans folks in the Weimar Republic would carry so cops wouldn't arrest them for crossdressing. The pass said that the person was seeing Dr. Magnus Hirschfeld for treatment and the police shouldn't arrest them. Dr. Hirschfeld even helped pioneer hormone therapy and gender-affirming surgeries.
May 6, 1933, the Nazi party broke into the institute, and arrested everyone there. On May 10, all of the books and research notes were burned in the first of the Nazi book burnings.
There's a documentary on Netflix called "Eldorado: Everything the Nazis Hated" about the Institute, LGBTQ+ life in the Weimar Republic, and how easy it is for it to be taken away.
You acted like that was name-calling instead of a warning, but that says more about you than it does me.
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are comparing those who disagree with your
> stance on transwomen in sports to the Nazis?
> Seriously?
https://www.hmd.org.uk/resource/6-may-1933-looting-of-the-institute-of-sexology/
Established in 1919, the Institute of Sexology was once the leading center of studying human sexuality and gender. In fact, the term "pass" apparently came from a pass that trans folks in the Weimar Republic would carry so cops wouldn't arrest them for crossdressing. The pass said that the person was seeing Dr. Magnus Hirschfeld for treatment and the police shouldn't arrest them. Dr. Hirschfeld even helped pioneer hormone therapy and gender-affirming surgeries.
May 6, 1933, the Nazi party broke into the institute, and arrested everyone there. On May 10, all of the books and research notes were burned in the first of the Nazi book burnings.
There's a documentary on Netflix called "Eldorado: Everything the Nazis Hated" about the Institute, LGBTQ+ life in the Weimar Republic, and how easy it is for it to be taken away.
You acted like that was name-calling instead of a warning, but that says more about you than it does me.
ookami! I was so happy to see your nick as I love reading your posts.
I am so sorry to read of your struggles with some of the discussion here.
I see this place as being full of people who have been places and done things and have one basic in common (LDS'ism) but over and above that are individuals with all kinds of different experiences, nobody perfect and everybody in transition from one thing or another. Part of it is just growing up and having various experiences, which the rest of us may or may not share.
The thing we most have in common, as above, is our connection in this or that way with the Mormon Church. I see this place, and others like it set up for the same purpose - giving a place for people to talk through their experiences with various religious groups - and otherwise we may not have much else in common with one another.
Part of the cloistered nature of some religions, such as Mormonism, is that it can take a long time to decompress and then start, at various ages and often way later than others who didn't live through the religious component, to figure things out.
I also have felt myself that many of the major issues of our time can be challenging to consider, comprehend and reach conclusions about. We each do have our own preconceptions, misconceptions, and all the pesky hanger-on type ideas and opinions we picked up along the way in whatever environments we have spent our time in. Obviously, through much of our formative years we don't get much of a choice about what the experiences and influences will be.
About the only experience we can say for sure that we have in common on this board is that in some way Mormonism has touched our lives, some who were born in, others who chose to join, most of each group who are here because they have chosen to leave the Mormon Church.
In the often rough-and-tumble discussions here and with the quick turnover of topics and threads things do get missed. Somebody asks for help and nobody notices or else they just don't know what to say to try and help.
Sometimes you can post about some thoughts or issues or feelings that are very important to you and not much response is forthcoming.
However our threads or posts are received it's easy, and natural, to take it personally, especially if we've poured our heart out and don't get much in the way of feedback that we were hoping for.
Other times we strongly disagree with others or feel we weren't heard or we were misunderstood.
It seems strange, maybe, that we would care how we are received or understood by strangers in cyberspace but it happens on boards like this where we can get to feel a bond with others in general or specifically with certain posters.
On RfM our main bond is, of course, whatever connection it is we have with Mormonism, whether personal experience or just an interest in it.
It's easy to say it's just a discussion board and our emotions shouldn't come into our participation here, but they do. I have felt hurt before by some comments or occurrences and I know that other posters have too. It's always painful to see a last post from a fellow poster when they're leaving because of something that happened on the board. I understand why a person would feel prompted to leave when something negative occurs here because as much as we can say it's just random people on the internet we can't help but to have formed a bit of a human connection in groups like this and so it feels real and it's nice to think people understand us and then something is said that extremely negatively affects us and it feels like the entire community has hurt us. Meanwhile, the party who does so, usually I believe unintentionally, can be completely oblivious to how their words came across so negatively and unhelpfully to us.
I'm not trying to psychoanalyze you so I hope it doesn't come across that way. If I did try to do so I wouldn't be able to because I'm hopeless at it. I'm just speaking in general because I don't know the particulars about what you've experienced that has been so upsetting and not helpful at all.
I'm not trying to convince you to stay either because that's likely not helpful either.
I just wanted to say, mainly, that I have so enjoyed reading your posts. You are such an interesting and clever writer. I have also been gratified that you have been generous in sharing with us some of your experiences which has helped me to understand some of those issues much better. That has only made me a better person.
I'm so sorry if you were hurt here. I have an impulse to say that nobody would have meant to do so but maybe that's not helpful for you right now.
Regarding trans issues and me - as I can only speak for myself - I definitely needed to do some reading and research about it as I just didn't know much at all. I appreciated the discussions here that provided some insight and also prompted me to look stuff up so I could understand the various issues and especially hear about them from those most closely involved. It's definitely a learning process because a lot of the issues aren't obvious or known/understood by people who are on the outside. All the discussion and upheaval about trans folks and sports was what finally got my attention about it all in the first place and I was surprised and kind of disappointed in myself that up to that point (fairly recently) I was almost totally unaware of the problems and struggles and discrimination and pain that occur in the lives of some people that nobody else even realizes. You have so eloquently expressed some of this here and I learned a lot from you.
I wish you and your partner all the best. I am picturing you off on an adventure somewhere laughing and having fun and being in love.
I hope you grace us with your presence and your captivating writing again sometime. Meanwhile, take care. Best regards to you, ookami.
NG
I am so sorry to read of your struggles with some of the discussion here.
I see this place as being full of people who have been places and done things and have one basic in common (LDS'ism) but over and above that are individuals with all kinds of different experiences, nobody perfect and everybody in transition from one thing or another. Part of it is just growing up and having various experiences, which the rest of us may or may not share.
The thing we most have in common, as above, is our connection in this or that way with the Mormon Church. I see this place, and others like it set up for the same purpose - giving a place for people to talk through their experiences with various religious groups - and otherwise we may not have much else in common with one another.
Part of the cloistered nature of some religions, such as Mormonism, is that it can take a long time to decompress and then start, at various ages and often way later than others who didn't live through the religious component, to figure things out.
I also have felt myself that many of the major issues of our time can be challenging to consider, comprehend and reach conclusions about. We each do have our own preconceptions, misconceptions, and all the pesky hanger-on type ideas and opinions we picked up along the way in whatever environments we have spent our time in. Obviously, through much of our formative years we don't get much of a choice about what the experiences and influences will be.
About the only experience we can say for sure that we have in common on this board is that in some way Mormonism has touched our lives, some who were born in, others who chose to join, most of each group who are here because they have chosen to leave the Mormon Church.
In the often rough-and-tumble discussions here and with the quick turnover of topics and threads things do get missed. Somebody asks for help and nobody notices or else they just don't know what to say to try and help.
Sometimes you can post about some thoughts or issues or feelings that are very important to you and not much response is forthcoming.
However our threads or posts are received it's easy, and natural, to take it personally, especially if we've poured our heart out and don't get much in the way of feedback that we were hoping for.
Other times we strongly disagree with others or feel we weren't heard or we were misunderstood.
It seems strange, maybe, that we would care how we are received or understood by strangers in cyberspace but it happens on boards like this where we can get to feel a bond with others in general or specifically with certain posters.
On RfM our main bond is, of course, whatever connection it is we have with Mormonism, whether personal experience or just an interest in it.
It's easy to say it's just a discussion board and our emotions shouldn't come into our participation here, but they do. I have felt hurt before by some comments or occurrences and I know that other posters have too. It's always painful to see a last post from a fellow poster when they're leaving because of something that happened on the board. I understand why a person would feel prompted to leave when something negative occurs here because as much as we can say it's just random people on the internet we can't help but to have formed a bit of a human connection in groups like this and so it feels real and it's nice to think people understand us and then something is said that extremely negatively affects us and it feels like the entire community has hurt us. Meanwhile, the party who does so, usually I believe unintentionally, can be completely oblivious to how their words came across so negatively and unhelpfully to us.
I'm not trying to psychoanalyze you so I hope it doesn't come across that way. If I did try to do so I wouldn't be able to because I'm hopeless at it. I'm just speaking in general because I don't know the particulars about what you've experienced that has been so upsetting and not helpful at all.
I'm not trying to convince you to stay either because that's likely not helpful either.
I just wanted to say, mainly, that I have so enjoyed reading your posts. You are such an interesting and clever writer. I have also been gratified that you have been generous in sharing with us some of your experiences which has helped me to understand some of those issues much better. That has only made me a better person.
I'm so sorry if you were hurt here. I have an impulse to say that nobody would have meant to do so but maybe that's not helpful for you right now.
Regarding trans issues and me - as I can only speak for myself - I definitely needed to do some reading and research about it as I just didn't know much at all. I appreciated the discussions here that provided some insight and also prompted me to look stuff up so I could understand the various issues and especially hear about them from those most closely involved. It's definitely a learning process because a lot of the issues aren't obvious or known/understood by people who are on the outside. All the discussion and upheaval about trans folks and sports was what finally got my attention about it all in the first place and I was surprised and kind of disappointed in myself that up to that point (fairly recently) I was almost totally unaware of the problems and struggles and discrimination and pain that occur in the lives of some people that nobody else even realizes. You have so eloquently expressed some of this here and I learned a lot from you.
I wish you and your partner all the best. I am picturing you off on an adventure somewhere laughing and having fun and being in love.
I hope you grace us with your presence and your captivating writing again sometime. Meanwhile, take care. Best regards to you, ookami.
NG
Nightie, I don't need a psychoanalysis, I just need you and Susan to listen.
About eight months back anybody started a thread about a fundie school refusing to play another school and it turned into a cesspool of bunk science and cissexism, the belief that trans people are worth less than cis people. I got sick of hearing posters who dealt with Mormonism and its abusive hierarchy demeaning trans people in a similar way so I called them out for it.
That's when I found out this board tolerates transphobia more than calling transphobia out. Read it for yourself if you have the stomach for it.
https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2465928,2465928#msg-2465928
I don't need to debate people who consider my loved ones "less equal." And over something as childish as throwing a ball or running.
About eight months back anybody started a thread about a fundie school refusing to play another school and it turned into a cesspool of bunk science and cissexism, the belief that trans people are worth less than cis people. I got sick of hearing posters who dealt with Mormonism and its abusive hierarchy demeaning trans people in a similar way so I called them out for it.
That's when I found out this board tolerates transphobia more than calling transphobia out. Read it for yourself if you have the stomach for it.
https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2465928,2465928#msg-2465928
I don't need to debate people who consider my loved ones "less equal." And over something as childish as throwing a ball or running.
You feel lots of rage. That means you're right.
Congratulations.
Congratulations.
I never asked, and never would ask, that you apologize or compromise yourself. I have additionally wondered where you have been and missed you. That doesn't change.
If you were to go back and look at our discussion, however, you would discover that I never said that testosterone was what made the difference between trans-women athletes and women athletes. I said it was the physiological changes that occurred as a result of going through the two gender-transformative stages of physical development: the first in utero and the second adolescent. Your source says absolutely nothing about that topic and hence has no bearing on our apparent disagreement.
So I ask you: is there a difference between cis-women and trans-women when it comes to height? Yes. How about weight? Yes. Do greater height and weight translate into a competitive advantage in many sports? Of course they do.
Take Lauren Hubbard. When she was a man, she competed as a super-heavyweight and peaked at a ranking of 219 among the world's male Olympic weightlifters. She then abandoned the sport for two decades, transitioned into womanhood, and started hormonal treatment in 2017, thereby neutralizing any testosterone. Yet other important attributes did not change. She went from being a 300-pound male weightlifter to a 295-pound woman weightlifter and, despite her advanced age and two decades with zero training, achieved a rank of number seven among the world's best women super-heavy-weights.
Does that sound to you like all the male advantages were eliminated by the hormonal adjustment? Can you explain what was it about her twenty-year vacation and her resumption of the sport at an age far beyond when most lifters retire that enabled her to improve her ranking from 219 to seven?
Your article only addresses the testosterone question and has nothing to say about stature and other residual advantages of having gone through adolescence as a man. Instead, the interviewee shifts the topic from such advantages to the inclusivity that he, without input from cis-women athletes, considers the point of sport.
I'm not sure why you think we must agree on all things to be allies. Just the other day I pointed anybody to a clip showing a biological basis for transexuality, which in my view is critically important because it shows that the phenomenon is biological and not volitional. I think people should be who they feel they are. But that's neither here nor there. As a lifelong athlete, I'm not going to pretend that a 7'2" trans-female basketball player would cease to have an advantage over a 6'4" cis-female center simply because the hormones were equalized.
If you don't feel comfortable arguing with someone who shares 90% of your views and values, at least as expressed here, that's fine with me. Having benefited greatly over the years from your opinions, I regret not having you around. But anger is no substitute for logic and facts.
Best wishes in any case.
If you were to go back and look at our discussion, however, you would discover that I never said that testosterone was what made the difference between trans-women athletes and women athletes. I said it was the physiological changes that occurred as a result of going through the two gender-transformative stages of physical development: the first in utero and the second adolescent. Your source says absolutely nothing about that topic and hence has no bearing on our apparent disagreement.
So I ask you: is there a difference between cis-women and trans-women when it comes to height? Yes. How about weight? Yes. Do greater height and weight translate into a competitive advantage in many sports? Of course they do.
Take Lauren Hubbard. When she was a man, she competed as a super-heavyweight and peaked at a ranking of 219 among the world's male Olympic weightlifters. She then abandoned the sport for two decades, transitioned into womanhood, and started hormonal treatment in 2017, thereby neutralizing any testosterone. Yet other important attributes did not change. She went from being a 300-pound male weightlifter to a 295-pound woman weightlifter and, despite her advanced age and two decades with zero training, achieved a rank of number seven among the world's best women super-heavy-weights.
Does that sound to you like all the male advantages were eliminated by the hormonal adjustment? Can you explain what was it about her twenty-year vacation and her resumption of the sport at an age far beyond when most lifters retire that enabled her to improve her ranking from 219 to seven?
Your article only addresses the testosterone question and has nothing to say about stature and other residual advantages of having gone through adolescence as a man. Instead, the interviewee shifts the topic from such advantages to the inclusivity that he, without input from cis-women athletes, considers the point of sport.
I'm not sure why you think we must agree on all things to be allies. Just the other day I pointed anybody to a clip showing a biological basis for transexuality, which in my view is critically important because it shows that the phenomenon is biological and not volitional. I think people should be who they feel they are. But that's neither here nor there. As a lifelong athlete, I'm not going to pretend that a 7'2" trans-female basketball player would cease to have an advantage over a 6'4" cis-female center simply because the hormones were equalized.
If you don't feel comfortable arguing with someone who shares 90% of your views and values, at least as expressed here, that's fine with me. Having benefited greatly over the years from your opinions, I regret not having you around. But anger is no substitute for logic and facts.
Best wishes in any case.
If you think this matter is something we can debate, you know nothing of the issue.
ookami, I don't care whether we have a "debate" or not.
Embracing trans-sexuality does not mean accepting every agendum on someone else's list of priorities. Equality means being equal, which by definition excludes preferential treatment that deprives others of their hard-won equality.
I'm saddened that you cannot recognize that people of goodwill can disagree about particulars. But it happens all the time and you can do whatever you want.
Embracing trans-sexuality does not mean accepting every agendum on someone else's list of priorities. Equality means being equal, which by definition excludes preferential treatment that deprives others of their hard-won equality.
I'm saddened that you cannot recognize that people of goodwill can disagree about particulars. But it happens all the time and you can do whatever you want.
ookami I am really sad about this whole thing and don't know what to say. Tempers are hot and I don't want to make things worse. I really, really hate it when members of this community fight. I want you to know you are heard. I want you to know you are valued. I want you to know that I give a shit. I am thrilled that things are going well for you. I want the two of you to be happy. I hope that you find living together fulfilling and it brings you everything you hoped it would. I will warn you, as an old woman, that it will not always be smooth sailing. Have patience. Be kind. Let things go. Be considerate. Work on all financial things together even if you keep two accounts. If you have one account, have allowances that you can spend no questions asked. I knew my first marriage was over (SO over) when he asked me what I did with the .50 cents he GAVE me the day before. While I was working 50+ hours a week. Save as much as you can. You spend the first third of your life thinking of what you want to buy, the second third buying, and the third trying to get rid of it all!
You have my email if you need something. I am glad my dish trick worked for your move. Nothing worse than having to wash all the crap when you are oh so tired before you can put it away.
Know the door is open. Know there is a seat at the table if you want it. Be happy friend :)
You have my email if you need something. I am glad my dish trick worked for your move. Nothing worse than having to wash all the crap when you are oh so tired before you can put it away.
Know the door is open. Know there is a seat at the table if you want it. Be happy friend :)
I know some of you want to keep hearing about my life right now, but you also act like I'm the one who needs to rethink things instead of the posters attacking trans folks for wanting the same opportunities as cis folks. They call trans women a "threat," talk about trans bodies like it's only a certain percentage man/woman/human, but everyone acts like *I'm* the one in the wrong?!
You can fetishize my relationship, you can keep letting transphobes spout hate "for fair competition" (am I the only one who thinks that's an oxymoron?), but you can't have both. It's not a problem of logic, it's a problem of basic human decency. I owe nothing to people who condemn people like her one minute and claim to admire us the next.
And Mormonism hates trans folks too. I don't want them to feel like ex-Mormons are just as bad. I don't want to be part of some bullshit "model minority" while you let posters whip up a moral panic over a small amount of people who want to play games.
I didn't leave one system that dehumanizes queer folks just to let another take its place. Mormonism mistreats women, but that is no excuse for letting exmo women mistreat trans women.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2023 12:33AM by ookami.
You can fetishize my relationship, you can keep letting transphobes spout hate "for fair competition" (am I the only one who thinks that's an oxymoron?), but you can't have both. It's not a problem of logic, it's a problem of basic human decency. I owe nothing to people who condemn people like her one minute and claim to admire us the next.
And Mormonism hates trans folks too. I don't want them to feel like ex-Mormons are just as bad. I don't want to be part of some bullshit "model minority" while you let posters whip up a moral panic over a small amount of people who want to play games.
I didn't leave one system that dehumanizes queer folks just to let another take its place. Mormonism mistreats women, but that is no excuse for letting exmo women mistreat trans women.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2023 12:33AM by ookami.
Ookami, we simply have a difference of opinion about the role of trans women in sports. You are entitled to your point of view, and I am entitled to mine.
There is a minor Olympic sport with which I am very familiar, but I won't mention it because it might compromise my privacy. In this sport, I only knew of one, very exceptional female athlete who was capable of training with the men. The rest of the women couldn't do it, couldn't keep up, or keep safe. Women have their own teams and competitions for a reason -- to be able to compete on a level playing field.
I'm guessing you are on the younger side. I was a part of the Title IX generation that fought for and won women's sports teams. There are those of us on the older side to whom this is very meaningful. In the past, you said something to the effect of, "Who cares about sports?" Well, I do, and many people do.
I have no need to convince you to change your opinion in this matter. But wanting to guard womens' sports does not make me transphobic. It makes me deeply interested in fair competition, which is something I fought for along with many other women of my generation. Again, you have no need to apologize. But neither do I.
There is a minor Olympic sport with which I am very familiar, but I won't mention it because it might compromise my privacy. In this sport, I only knew of one, very exceptional female athlete who was capable of training with the men. The rest of the women couldn't do it, couldn't keep up, or keep safe. Women have their own teams and competitions for a reason -- to be able to compete on a level playing field.
I'm guessing you are on the younger side. I was a part of the Title IX generation that fought for and won women's sports teams. There are those of us on the older side to whom this is very meaningful. In the past, you said something to the effect of, "Who cares about sports?" Well, I do, and many people do.
I have no need to convince you to change your opinion in this matter. But wanting to guard womens' sports does not make me transphobic. It makes me deeply interested in fair competition, which is something I fought for along with many other women of my generation. Again, you have no need to apologize. But neither do I.
summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It
> makes me deeply interested in fair competition,
> which is something I fought for along with many
> other women of my generation.
I appreciate hearing all the perspectives, as we each have different experiences and can learn from each other.
Many of the major social issues through all the decades have been associated with upheaval and prolonged discussion and debate as when it comes to absorbing new information and insights and changing long-held views and positions, it takes time for people to (often very slowly) change their opinions about "the way it's always been done" (or thought or felt). It can also be a learned process to just listen to those most affected by a specific issue and hear how things are from their own perspective.
Hopefully, we can value each individual enough to listen and hear and think and change our own positions if we find there is reason to do so.
Often this entails vigorous debate which can certainly become rancorous, unfortunately. Somebody always gets caught in the crosshairs.
Certainly here, I believe that most people mean well and don't set out to cause blatant offence. We may do so unintentionally, which is most unfortunate.
I miss many who have passed through here and especially regret incidences of people leaving feeling hurt. That is definitely not the purpose here nor the intent of most.
I hope everybody finds what they need, whether here or in other venues.
What I find of great value here is learning from other people's experiences and viewpoints.
-------------------------------------------------------
> It
> makes me deeply interested in fair competition,
> which is something I fought for along with many
> other women of my generation.
I appreciate hearing all the perspectives, as we each have different experiences and can learn from each other.
Many of the major social issues through all the decades have been associated with upheaval and prolonged discussion and debate as when it comes to absorbing new information and insights and changing long-held views and positions, it takes time for people to (often very slowly) change their opinions about "the way it's always been done" (or thought or felt). It can also be a learned process to just listen to those most affected by a specific issue and hear how things are from their own perspective.
Hopefully, we can value each individual enough to listen and hear and think and change our own positions if we find there is reason to do so.
Often this entails vigorous debate which can certainly become rancorous, unfortunately. Somebody always gets caught in the crosshairs.
Certainly here, I believe that most people mean well and don't set out to cause blatant offence. We may do so unintentionally, which is most unfortunate.
I miss many who have passed through here and especially regret incidences of people leaving feeling hurt. That is definitely not the purpose here nor the intent of most.
I hope everybody finds what they need, whether here or in other venues.
What I find of great value here is learning from other people's experiences and viewpoints.
summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ookami, we simply have a difference of opinion
> about the role of trans women in sports. You are
> entitled to your point of view, and I am entitled
> to mine.
"I want to discriminate against trans folks. You have your opinion and I have mine." That's not a different opinion, that's bigotry.
>
> There is a minor Olympic sport with which I am
> very familiar, but I won't mention it because it
> might compromise my privacy. In this sport, I only
> knew of one, very exceptional female athlete who
> was capable of training with the men. The rest of
> the women couldn't do it, couldn't keep up, or
> keep safe. Women have their own teams and
> competitions for a reason -- to be able to compete
> on a level playing field.
>
Trans women are women. And even as a TBM, I thought the "women are weaker" claim was bullshit that kept women down. I hated it when the men preached it and it disgusts me when I hear women repeat it.
And don't get me started on how much of physical education and fitness was started by eugenecists.
> I'm guessing you are on the younger side. I was a
> part of the Title IX generation that fought for
> and won women's sports teams. There are those of
> us on the older side to whom this is very
> meaningful. In the past, you said something to the
> effect of, "Who cares about sports?" Well, I do,
> and many people do.
Gripe about me insulting you while you infantilize me. Whatever, boomer.
>
> I have no need to convince you to change your
> opinion in this matter. But wanting to guard
> womens' sports does not make me transphobic.
You want to discriminate against athletes for being trans. That is the DEFINITON of transphobia no matter what you call it!
> It
> makes me deeply interested in fair competition,
> which is something I fought for along with many
> other women of my generation.
Your generation also grew up with "Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer," but you still want to forbid people with physical differences from joining in games. Get off the cross, we need the wood.
> Again, you have no
> need to apologize. But neither do I.
Oh, you do. Whether you'll admit it is the question.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ookami, we simply have a difference of opinion
> about the role of trans women in sports. You are
> entitled to your point of view, and I am entitled
> to mine.
"I want to discriminate against trans folks. You have your opinion and I have mine." That's not a different opinion, that's bigotry.
>
> There is a minor Olympic sport with which I am
> very familiar, but I won't mention it because it
> might compromise my privacy. In this sport, I only
> knew of one, very exceptional female athlete who
> was capable of training with the men. The rest of
> the women couldn't do it, couldn't keep up, or
> keep safe. Women have their own teams and
> competitions for a reason -- to be able to compete
> on a level playing field.
>
Trans women are women. And even as a TBM, I thought the "women are weaker" claim was bullshit that kept women down. I hated it when the men preached it and it disgusts me when I hear women repeat it.
And don't get me started on how much of physical education and fitness was started by eugenecists.
> I'm guessing you are on the younger side. I was a
> part of the Title IX generation that fought for
> and won women's sports teams. There are those of
> us on the older side to whom this is very
> meaningful. In the past, you said something to the
> effect of, "Who cares about sports?" Well, I do,
> and many people do.
Gripe about me insulting you while you infantilize me. Whatever, boomer.
>
> I have no need to convince you to change your
> opinion in this matter. But wanting to guard
> womens' sports does not make me transphobic.
You want to discriminate against athletes for being trans. That is the DEFINITON of transphobia no matter what you call it!
> It
> makes me deeply interested in fair competition,
> which is something I fought for along with many
> other women of my generation.
Your generation also grew up with "Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer," but you still want to forbid people with physical differences from joining in games. Get off the cross, we need the wood.
> Again, you have no
> need to apologize. But neither do I.
Oh, you do. Whether you'll admit it is the question.
We've debated the issue before, and I don't care to do so again. However at this point, your name calling says more about you than about me.
Sorry, you can't reply to this topic. It has been closed. Please start another thread and continue the conversation.