So my oldest child is going to marry. His fiancé is a lovely girl and I think she'll be a very good match for him. So what do I do? It looks like this will be a temple marriage some 2k miles away. If it were local I sure as hell wouldn't go to the temple just to wait outside, then stand in for pictures so everybody could pretend I was part of it. Since this is on the other side of the country, am I obligated to fly/drive all the way out there and then refuse to go to the temple and wait outside for pictures?

At this point, nobody has asked me to go. It might be assumed that I will be there, but nobody has formally asked for any kind of participation from me. If I'm honest with myself, I don't want to go. The idea of driving for two days with the whole family is making me queasy. We can't afford to all fly out then rent a car and pay for hotels etc. It's like I'm expected to pay a small fortune for the privilege of being snubbed. The other night I told my wife that it was very hard for me to pretend that being excluded isn't a huge slap in the face.

Maybe I'm being a bit childish but things would be different if I could actually participate in the wedding. If I had the honor of standing with my son and watch his eyes light up as he sees his lovely bride walk down the isle, if I could be there to hug them both after they are formally joined and begin their adventure together, if I could lean over and kiss my wife as we celebrate, together, this significant milestone in our own adventure, if, if, if. If any of that were available to me then I'd be all over this wedding! I'd be shopping for a tux. I'd be the one booking a hotel. I'd be practicing a speech to make at the wedding breakfast. In short, I'd be pumped and excited as hell.

What really brings me down is the judgments that will be made about me regardless of any action I take. I won't be in the temple and my absence will be noted. It doesn't matter if no one actually says: “Too bad your father isn't worthy to join us today”. Everybody will be thinking it anyway. And it looks like my wife's father may be doing the sealing. He of course has to get permission to leave his “area” since he and his wife are currently serving a mission. That won't be a problem though because this is a Temple Wedding and they have to make a big fucking deal about Temple Weddings.

Why can't they see their own hypocrisy? If my son announced that they were going to be married on a beach at sunrise instead of in the temple then his Grampa wouldn't even consider leaving his mission to attend the thing even if he was asked to perform the ceremony.

I'm so torn. On the one hand I don't want to take anything away from my son's happy event. On the other hand, they are the ones excluding me so why should I feel obligated to play the role of Second Class Parent? Or Sinner? Or persona non-grata? The way the Cult has set things up there are no other roles available to me. I don't want to play any of them so I don't want to participate.

The thing that hurts the most is that I'm effectively muzzled. I can't even discuss my feeling about this with those I love most. Family and friends just look at me with pity and a little shame and then back away because they don't want to be tainted by my apostasy.

So again, why should I go?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2011 11:15AM by Stunted.

I feel for you. It's a cruel trick. How blatant can it be what you simply put to a few words? "Families as weapons" Yes, I had a little run-in with apparently some missionaries who moved in to the apartments. I guess all four of them must do their laundry together on p-day. Monday is P-day, right? I must laugh, because yesterday I saw them riding their bikes and they had to see my Utah plates and I had a big mischievous smile and one of them hit a shopping cart. OMG lol. Well, we'll see how it goes down. I don't plan to move out or anything. I'm happy go lucky that way.

The temple crap is one reason I left the church. If I had been honest 5 years ago at my baptism interview, I would have failed the interview.

If family is what the church is worried about, then they need to look at all the families that have left the church because of the temple rituals.

I'm so sorry, Stunted. This is such a hard one because you don't want your son to feel like you are punishing him. If it were me, I wouldn't want to go either and I wouldn't see the point in being there if I wasn't going to get to participate in any of it!

Maybe ask your son if they have any plans for an extra ring ceremony or anything like that. If the answer is no, send him a check for the amount it would have cost you to travel out there and tell him how much you love him and that you thought he could probably use the money more.

I hate to say it, but I think your place is to be with your son. I know it will hurt like hell, but it's his day and it will mean a lot to him for you to be there to share it with him in whatever way you can.

I imagine there will be a wedding reception as well? If there's no reception, just a wedding you aren't invited to, I could see not making the trip. Or if a reception will be held in the area of the country where you live. But if it's going to be the huge production that most mormon weddings are you should probably suck it up and be there for him.

I wouldn't, I mean what would be the point? From the way this sounds, and from the way future DIL's family sounds, I think its pretty clear that he's not welcome or wanted.

If it was me personally, mormon or not, I would tell my future spouse "My family will be here, in attendance, and will actively participate in this wedding, along with your family as well. If you have any problems with that, you need to tell me now, before we start planning a wedding."

The negative consequences of NOT going will last a lifetime. Your son may never forgive you if he expects you to make the trip. The negative consequences of going will only last a few weeks either side then you'll move on from the hurt.

You may have a point freeman, but in the end its not our decision. It's Stunted decision. If Stunted was my parent, they wouldn't be in this situation. I would put my family above the LDS church PERIOD.

At the very least, you might just call "So I hear you are getting married" and then see where he goes from there. If he has not invited you and makes it sound like you are not welcome, then as hard as it seems, maybe it is best to just send an awesome gift.

I'm sorry this is happening.

It is tradition in the church to have a second reception for the groom's family, usually in their home. I live in the east coast and many of the young people in our area marry people from the west (UT, CA, ID,...). They nearly always have a reception here in VA in the groom's home.

I would forget the ring ceremony, that just seems to make it worse (IMHO). The church would get the message if young couples with a non-member parent started with a civil ceremony and chose to wait one year to go to the temple. The church would change the rules being afraid they would never go to the temple as all.

Don't go.

I agree. My 22 year old dd is the last to marry of my tbm children. I've already decided I will not be outside the Temple waiting for her. Just going to the reception and being stared at and talked about is bad enough.I imagine dd will be hurt,but I don't know what else she really expects me to do. One of my dd's got married Jan. of 2010. I lied my way through the interview,and they knew I was lying. Was I glad I was there for her? Not really. Listening to all the hog wash and lies just about did me in.

Maybe if more exmo's took a stand things might change. Na. Just kidding.

It sucks and it's wrong. And you can't really win.

But I think you'll lose LESS if you go. You will be showing support for your son, who you have a good relationship with. And your wife would probably appreciate having you along on the trip. I think boycotting the whole thing would send the wrong message about not participating in a major family event because of your feelings against the church.

But I'll bet there will be some kind of meal and celebration/reception afterwards. And family visiting time. You'll probably meet the in-laws. And there will be family time along the way. Maybe you could find a way to make that fun. We used to buy a new tape or CD for each trip and would listen to it along the way. And try to avoid discussing the church on the trip.

But I would NOT wait outside the temple. And be cheerfully blunt if anyone asks why you weren't there. "I just can't pretend to believe anymore, so I couldn't get a membership card" . . . or whatever feels right to you. No shame, no apologies, and I'd probably hide the anger and go with something thoughtful or innocently mocking "they don't allow spawn of Satan inside". If you are angry or act emotionally upset in any way, you automatically are judged guilty. That's what they expect. Mess with their minds a bit. Find a way to have a little fun without it being obvious.

However, if it's JUST the wedding? Maybe not worth it.

Good luck in your decision. I hope it goes well either way.

They know the score. Plenty of books and marital instructional videos available, after all. (No! Not __THOSE__ types of marital instructional videos!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2011 10:03AM by matt.

This will happen to me someday soon. My son is just pre-mission right now and my daughter will be off to college in a few years. I think about this problem a lot, about the alienation number, the flagrant power trip the church does on family members who exercise their consciences and integrity and choose to say "No" to the lie.

My feeling is that I won't go. If my kids want to pursue their fucked up, exclusivist religion, that's on them. It's not up to me to choose sloppy seconds or humiliation for their benefit. A ring ceremony? No thank you. If I'm not good enough for the main course, I'm not good enough for any facade presented as an intentional sop to the lesser people.

It's either that or I leave the family permanently. I know that sounds cold, but my anger is cold. I'll not be made an object of scorn or contempt or derision b/c of institutional abuse that my family members can't or won't comprehend. It's not on me. It's on them. I was good enough to raise them and pay for their college and their growing up, but now it's for strangers to join in their "big" day while I sit around like a sad sack? No. Thank. You.

I know. I'm a selfish bastard. But sometimes parents have to do the hard thing to do the right thing, to teach the right thing. If by this one act I could wake a kid up or jiggle a brain cell, then great. If not, then I won't pretend the cow shit is rose petals. I won't support the church's fraud with a pantomime of self-negating gestures that participate in it.

I don't know what stunted should do, it is truly a no win situation.

I agree completely with you Derrida and liked the way you put it. I will never be the person with my nose pressed up against the window. Not at a wedding or anything else.

I really feel for you stunted. I hope you make the right decision for you.

I need some help here, why does the church make a couple who are temple ready wait one year before being sealed in the temple after they have a civil or church wedding? My wife and I were married in 1981 and sealed in 1985. It was great for my family to attend our wedding.

And because it's run by a bunch of mean-spirited SOB's. The church could do it here as it's done in Europe, but the leadership could be bothered.

Maybe they're worried that temple marriage will be devalued if they allow civil marriages on the same day.

Thanks, that is what I thought. Just wanted to see if there was a "legitimate" reason. Seems so, so sad and something they can easily change (unlike church history). It took the church over 100 years after Lincoln freed the slaves to give the PH to the black members. The church moves way too slow. They ought to dump the WOW as well and reduce Sunday meetings by 1 to 2 hours. I go to McDonalds during SS to get a nice hot cup of coffee - oh boy for me!

see below - moved



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2011 11:28PM by Joe Laban.

They rake in a lot of back tithing from family members who want to see their loved ones married.

He is your son. Go and support him. It will be worse if you don't. Your hope is someday he will understand the heartbreak.

I understand now how hard it must have been for my mother who waited outside the temple. I had to wait outside as my daughter got married in the temple this last spring. No teacher like experience.

Do not miss the marriage of your son. Hate the church but love your son.

What others think means nothing. Remember that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2011 11:10PM by AmIDarkNow?.

TBMs don't get that they are living their lives according to Satan's plan. Forcing people to follow the Mormon party line is the MO.

It is satan's plan - I never looked at it that way.

YOU ,,At 3 a.m. and I don't know if hiccups in an infant is dire, who do I call? Remind them that you are there, gently, because they might leap.

There is no good answer. Whatever choice you make will clearly have a major downside. Years ago I stopped attending all temple ceremonies (By attending I mean waiting outside with the children) for nieces and nephews marrying, but for my own kid? I don't know.

I will say my father in law did not attend my (nonreligous) wedding and he lived about 1.5 miles away.It hurt my DH deeply, but that was a different circumstance.His reason had to do with his divorce from mom in law.

My best suggestion may be to tell your son what you have told us. How it pains you to go through the time and money to be shunned, and how it hurts you that religion divides the family. I doubt he will get it now, but it may reduce some of the emotion and set the stage for relationship in the future.

I am just so sorry that you are facing this, and that so many are so blinded by this church they are putting others through the same thing. It really pisses me off!

I had to miss my only sons wedding three years ago. It was the worst day of my life for me and my wife. What made it worse was I was active for 43 years. Words can't describe the pain I felt that day. I still get tears in my eyes writing this. I'll never forgive the fuckin church for why they did to me. Ever!

Whatever you decide, All I can tell you is there are many many many of us that have gone through this and be assured our thoughts will be with you, hope that helps a little.

I know for me, I wouldn't go. If they had a reception, I'd go to that but I wouldn't sit around a building while they did whatever and then came out later. But that isn't right for some people and I'd never try to say that everyone should react like me.

Then again, I have a really close and strong relationship with both of my children and I simply can't imagine them cutting me out of such an important part of their lives -- and I was there when both of my children married, so I'm fortunate enough not to have to worry about that sort of thing.

Damn, temple weddings piss me off! Just a couple months ago I was standing outside the temple while my brother got married inside. After they came out we were standing around and the bride and groom were getting their pics taken by my cousin, who is also the bride's best friend. I overheard my cousin's husband (who had been inside the temple and was there for their wedding) complain about how he wanted to leave and he really had no reason to be there because he didn't really know the couple. His wife was the cousin of the groom and the best friend of the bride! And here he was, not giving a f*ck and was able to attend their temple wedding when people like you and me who actually care about their family cannot. Really irritating.

Do you feel comfortable discussing your concerns with your son? I would at least try talking to him about how you feel before making a decision. IMO wedding days (especially temple weddings) are NOT the biggest most important day of someone's life. If you choose not to go there are going to be plenty of opportunities for you to show your support and love to you son and DIL. The birth of their children, for example, will mean a lot more to them. But you should talk to him.

Thanks for everybody's input. I love the exchange of ideas and view points in this forum. That just isn't something that happens in the MORG.

I've been thinking more about my situation and I don't even know if my future daughter-in-law knows I'm a non believer. Has my son told her? Is he afraid to tell her because she might want to back out? Let's be honest, the Morg attaches a whole lot of shame and guilt to non-compliance and open apostasy is about as non-compliant as you can get.

To answer some of the questions, I'm not “un-invited” to anything at this point as it's still early in the process. I think my son would like me there but he has other things on his mind – as it should be!

It's like the Mormons just assume that everyone is on board with how they do things. A dirty apostate should just humbly take his place as "hanger on" and be grateful that we let him stand at the end of the line at the reception. After all, it's his own fault that he isn't worthy to be in the temple. If he really loved his son he'd have that temple recommend now wouldn't he?

Last night I had a rather interesting conversation with my wife. It was interesting because she actually listened to me and let me unload some of the anger and hurt I've been feeling. I felt understood and valued.

I think she gets it.

We were both trying to find some compromises and figure out how to make this work. I suggested that I could handle going to the temple and even join in for the pictures at the temple if she was willing to wait outside with me while they get married. She said “maybe”.

Wow.

Can you imagine the Cog-Dis that would result if the card carrying mother of the groom chose to wait outside with her “unworthy” husband? We'd be standing there holding hands in a demonstration of devotion and solidarity, silently demonstrating that church policy won't drive a wedge between us. Her mother would probably have a stroke. I don't know if it will happen, but at least we are talking and looking for a solution together. Can't really ask for more than that.

Thanks again,

Stunted.

How about;

Dear Son,

As you know I can't attend your temple wedding. I wish I could but that is not the reality we live in.

However we would really like to get to know DIL better, and show her how much we wish to welcome her into our family, so we would like to offer to pay your way out here after your wedding (and honeymoon?) to spend a week with us. We would like to throw a reception in our house and invite all of your old friends to come over and meet her, and take her to see ______, _____ and ______(insert local sights and events of interest). If you have no Honeymoon planned, how does a couple of nights at _________(resort within a few hours drive from you) sound? Please let us know as soon as possible as we would love to make plans to formaly make her part of our family.

Love,

Stunted

Now the talk at the wedding is changed from "poor evil stunted. He can't be here..." to " Did you hear what stunted is doing for them?..."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2011 12:49PM by jon1.