Sex is all about trust.

Your wife's "piece of meat" comment indicates a lack of trust in you.

Part of that is due to how western culture inculcates women to see men as dirty, barbaric, dangerous creatures who only want sex in order to degrade women (the incessant "porn is degrading" threads are some evidence of this...). Furthering it is your wife's mormon background, which ramps up the "men only want one thing" hysteria to truly ridiculous levels.

In light of this, her behavior isn't surprising.

But if you really want to preserve your marriage, you need to try to de-emphasize sex for awhile. Build on the trust. See a counselor.

When the trust is strong enough, and she sees your desires as a positive thing, the sex will take care of itself.

Threatening to have an affair certainly didn't build trust either.
I totally agree with your advice.

I was trying to avoid any direct criticism of ronas in my OP, though, as he'd be less likely to take seriously anything I'd say thereafter.

I completely agree I have made MANY mistakes and that the affair threat thing is a huge one - maybe the biggest. And it is the one that put me a hairs breadth from divorce - I get it why. And maybe it still will end my marriage.

However, this was already VERY messed up before we got to that point. The porn/masturbation that has actually happened also has the same exact effect. That threat alone has destroyed her trust. And there are plenty of other mistakes I have made too.

Have you admitted it to her?

I think you already know what you need to do. Now it's just a matter of doing it.

Yes I have admitted it. I've also told her my attitude has completely changed I and don't ever believe I will have an affair based on where things are now - I honestly feel this way. I have also told her that I understand that it doesn't take it away and she will always feel the threat no matter what I do or say.

I've spent 17 years thinking maybe this time I know what to do and trying my hardest to make it work only to make it worse over and over again. I'm discouraged. I'm worn out trying and trying and trying to figure out how to make this right. So no I don't know what I need to do.

A counselor is the next step.

I think he said they'd been to counselling twice, but he never said if it was a mormon counselor. That does often make a difference. I've seen many stories where some mormon counselors ignore any part of their training/education that doesn't agree with their religion.

And some non-mormon counselors are useless too.

Because you two seem so compatible in every other way, I think it would be worth it to keep trying counselors until you find one that can help.

Things still might not work out.

Relationships are complicated things, and both sides have to want for it to continue and be willing to do what must be done for that to happen.

Well here's the experience with the 2 counselors:

1) It was some famous TBM counselor that has written marriage books - Lundquist maybe? We went to one session. I got some insights that helped our marriage.

His approach was very agressive. Basically it went like
Wife: "My husband is a jerk." (Not the exact words).
Conselor: "Why are you a jerk?"
Me: Try to defend myself. "Oh and my wife is a jerk?"
Counselor to wife: "Why are you a jerk?"
Wife: Tries to defend herself. "Oh and my husband is also a loser?"
Conselor to me: "Why are you a loser?"
Me: Try to defend myself. "Well my wife is also a loser?"
Couselor: "Why are you a loser?"

You get the idea. Basically we both came out of it feeling beat up and like dirt.

The next counselor was a family services lady that we went to once a week for about 6 months who helped in some ways with some worksheets and excercises she gave us to improve our communication and not have things escalate so quickly. She seemed either very inexperienced or very embarrased to try to talk about anything in the sex area.

Both times we went to these counselors my main hope was to figure out how to break of our negative sex cycle we've been in pretty much since the 3rd day of our marriage as I remember it. (My wife actually tells me it was before we were even married when I complained that she wouldn't make out with me enough. The problem as I found out 15 years later was because it would get her so turned on she couldn't stop herself from masturbating afterwards so whe was trying to avoid making out so that we could have a temple marriage - ultimately she just lied and went to the temple for the first time not confessing her latest masturbation.)

So with an effective counselor which I don't feel the first 2 were I think there could be significant progress. Going to a counselor is already a given already before I made my initial post...

On the positive side I believe both my wife and I are both at a spot where we are truly willing to give this a good effort.

Helamonster.

Thank you, thank you. Your advice is spot on correct I think.

I think it's half of the solution to the problem.

The other half is to figure out how to quit taking it so personally and being so hurt that she isn't interested. The fact that I know it's 90% my own fault doesn't make it easier to not take it personal and not be hurt.

If I had a time machine and could go back to the beginning of my marriage I would know how to prevent things from getting where they are.

But really, 90% of the things that people do and say are not about you, but about THEM.

Yes, your actions and comments haven't helped. But ultimately, if you realize that most of your wife's issues aren't about you or anyone else, that will not only help you to stop taking things personally, but also help stop you from doing or saying anything that might be hurtful to her.

In my opinion sexual intimacy is at the core of our "Beingness". I say this because if accomplished in a healthy manner, it envelopes our physical, mental, emotional and spiritual nature in the raw. Partnered, sexual relationships will bring up all of our STUFF - physical, mental, emotional and spiritual!

My ex-husband would throw an absolute fit (and throw things around the room) if he did not get sex when HE wanted it and how HE wanted it. I became very shut down, scared, etc. when anything sexual came about. After divorcing him, I realized that I did really enjoy sex, I just couldn't find it in a relationship that was so disfunctional. I had to heal myself, find myself and who I was in EVERY aspect.

My new husband and I have great sex! We have found our rythmn - sometimes it's incredibly wild and sometimes it's not. Let the sexual relationship unfold and get some good help - there is so much information out here now that anyone can find what they need when they need it! And, do not involve someone else in an affair - it will only further to muddy the waters!

I read your earlier post and tried to reply but the thread was closed. So here's my reply to the earlier thread:


wow. I was almost exactly like your wife. Too much sex felt like an imposition and like I was just a tool for his gratification (often I didn't feel sexually satisfied). You're right, church makes sex dirty, unfun. How to get her over her prudishness, I'm not sure. Once I didn't believe in the church, I started to get more relaxed and enjoyed sex more - was willing to instigate and try new things.

How would she feel about satisfying you manually? You'd be together and connected, it can be quick, and she might like it too. You could show her the ropes or have her read a book (if she would). Tickle His Pickle is a good, quick read for that kind of info. Heck, you could read it and give her some ideas if she won't read it. Tickle her Fancy is another book for women - you could also read that to learn more about pleasing women (maybe if it's more fun she'll do it more?).

There's a podcast/audio on mormonstories.org by a sex therapist. Maybe she would listen to that - it helped me see masturbation as normal, and porn not as something inherently evil.

mormonstories.org
episodes: 300-301, 280, 245 (the one referenced above), 214-216, 168-169, there are probably more...

Good luck. I'm glad she decided to stay and work on things!

She had a much higher sex drive and often I just wanted to sleep...

but I never felt like she was perverted; and quite honestly I didn't consider it a negative part of our relationship.

I was definitely glad she was like that and not too far the other way.

I'm going out on a limb here ....you're wife needs to just give you the nookie; how you want it and when you want it.

If what you say is to be believed....you're doing great by everything else...

I can never understand woman who can't just bend a little in the sex area; if you are otherwise a great husband and father.

She would if she could, but she can't. I understand and respect that.

Having been through the same situation (and *not* being a Mormon,) to me her comment about feeling like a piece of meat is directly related to the relentlessness of his demands regardless of her feelings (see my comment on the last thread.)

No amount of counseling is going to erase a marked difference in sex drives. In my opinion this situation will *not* take care of itself.

Honestly, I don't know what the answer is for Ronas. I chose to walk away from my relationship, and I was happier for it. A male friend of mine in Ronas's shoes got caught cheating, divorced, and suffered for it for many years afterward. His subsequent partner wasn't even as adventuresome in bed as his former wife (much to his dismay!)

My one observation about my previous, high sex drive boyfriend is that he saw himself as being a very accomplished lover. I put him in the average range. Sure, he could do steps A through Z and was up for just about anything. But he lacked sensitivity and perception of my needs. Knowing a lot of tricks does not in and of itself make for a great partner.

Summer you clearly understand exactly what is going on because you were in the exact same situation.

I understand what I'm doing to her. Really I do. That's most of what hurts. I just don't know how not to do it.

Porn and masturbation seems like the best solution in many ways but that just hurts her too. Also it's pretty emotionally empty for me.

My opinion is that she's just going to have to get over the porn/masturbation thing. Easier said that done, I know.

If you are having high quality sex two to three times a week, then I'm at a loss as to why you'd feel emotional emptiness if you need to take care of your own needs the rest of the time. Try living on your own for a while! (-- and even then, Ronas, I don't feel emotionally empty. I'm just saying that you should contrast your current situation with the alternatives.)

If you want to try to save your marriage, I would back off of her sexually altogether for awhile. Give her a breather and then let her come on to you. When you see the friskiness in her eyes, go for it. You might be pleasantly surprised at the direction your intimate relationship takes if you are able to do that. I think in order to improve your sex life, you need to take the pressure off of your wife. Sometimes less is more.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2012 03:07PM by summer.

If I were having what I considered to be high quality sex 2 or 3 times a week I would be fine. Especially if it were OK to supplement with masturbation.

We have low quality sex 1-3 times a week and high quality sex a couple times a month. By low quality sex I mean a quickie where we both have a orgasm but it's pretty quick and doesn't have a lot of emotional connection. There are a lot of reasons you could guess for the lack of emotional connection - the primary reason is my wife is too stressed about sex to be able to focus on anything other than getting a good orgasm out of it and getting it over with.

I completely agree with the back off on sex thing. Not sure how to do it effectively. I've gone over a year at one point never asking for anything sexually. It didn't help much because my wife still felt pressured the whole time primarily because she felt like if she didn't provide it I would go back to porn. And just because I didn't complain and complimented everything I could she knew perfectly well that I wasn't perfectly happy.

For example last night my wife said "I'm not exactly sure when I'll be ready to have sex again, when does it need to be for you?"
My answer - "Sometime in the next year."
She laughed.
"No really. No I mean it - it needs to be when you are ready for it - sure I'd be glad if it was sooner..."
Of course this doesn't really fix anything because underneath it she knows perfectly well I'm going to be taking care of myself in the mean time which hurts her.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2012 03:14PM by ronas.

Educate her about it. Outside of the Mormon church, it's an expected, normal, and healthy activity. If you're going to make your marriage work, you will both need to make compromises, and from where I'm sitting, that's one area she's going to have to bend on.

I think you can make an emotional connection with fairly quick sex. But I think you're right -- your wife is just so turned off to sex at this point that she just wants to get it over with, and she isn't really connecting with you.

Well where we are right now is my wife is planning to stay in the marriage knowing full well that masturbation and pornography are going to happen.

And I know full well that we'll have sex when she feels like it.

I hope she can be mostly OK with the porn and doesn't get bitter.

I hope she can mostly feel free to really only have sex when she wants and not feel pressured even though I'm not trying to pressure her.

I hope I can mostly be OK with truly taking the pressure of her sexually and not taking it personally.

I believe if all 3 of those things go right we're golden. I think we're going to have to work really really hard to make those 3 things go right.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2012 05:26PM by ronas.

My experience is that it is best to narrow down the things you want to fix (in any sphere) to three max. Any more than that and it gets overwhelming or you lose focus.

Most of my nevermo guy friends liked to look at porn through their thirties. It seemed to fall away for the most part after that. In the nevermo world light to moderate porn use isn't a big deal.

I also tried responding to your first post ronas but the thread was closed so here is my response. I hope it helps. Oh, and the link dot posted above is good too, that one also helped me, you might want to start with that one and ease your wife into the other stuff that I list in my following post (since the one above is from a TBM sex therapist). OH, also I'd like to say that I don't think you should blame yourself so much. I mean, of course you are at fault but so is your wife. She needs to try harder to understand your perspective and your needs, imo.

My original response:

I think you should try to save your marriage it sounds like you truly love each other and have a great friendship. You guys can work on the sex, but it will take time. I think you both will need to have a lot of patience with each other.

So here's what stands out to me from what you said about your wife. Mormonism, as it typically does, has ruined sex for her. She sees it as something dirty and maybe even "wrong." That's the way she was conditioned. A lot of TBM women have this problem. I did too. When I was married, I still thought wanting sex was bad and there was stuff I felt guilty about doing (such as wearing sexy lingerie) even though I was married and there were things I would not do because it seemed "perverse" to me. I think this is typical of most TBM women and most likely your wife may even feel badly about her own sexual desires (and of course the church teaches her masturbation is evil even though she has probably done it herself, there's so much guilt with that). I know I did. What she needs is to be re-educated about sex so that she can have a much healthier attitude towards it and recognize that you are just a normal male who has a high sex drive, not some kind of sexual deviant. This is the real problem I think, she sees your desire for her as a threat rather than as something positive. I think if she fundamentally changes her attitude and perspective on sex, then she will be much more willing to give you what you need. You of course also need to be willing to compromise and like I said, it would require a lot of patience.

So I realize that changing her attitude on sex is easier said than done. I realize what is truly getting in the way with that is the fact that she's TBM and I know that makes it harder. But I think there are some things you could suggest she read and listen to that may help her slowly change how she views sex. I am recommending these things because they helped me realize that sex is just a natural part of our human experience, it's something we need (not just desire) and it's very important to a healthy marital relationship. I wish I had understood this when I was still married, although unfortunately it wouldn't have saved my marriage (my ex is gay) but I still wish I had known and had the chance to have had a more fulfilling sexual relationship in my marriage. But live and learn. Anyway, here are some resources that really helped me. It changed the way I understand sexuality (especially male sexuality) and has made me a much better sexual partner (according to the 2 I have had since getting divorced).

Dennis Prager's lectures on Male Sexuality (I don't know if I'm allowed to post a link but just google it). It's a little pricey but I seriously think it's well worth it. I listen to him regularly and he totally changed the way I see male sexuality. I used to see it as a threat much like your wife but I don't now. To me this knowledge is invaluable. (he's a conservative radio talk show host but he doesn't just cover politics, since he's conservative your wife might be more open to him ??)

Also this woman lectures to men and women about male/female relationships and understanding male nature. She provides great insight too. http://understandmen.com/

Like I said, I recommend these things because they really helped me have a much healthier attitude towards sex and better understanding male sexuality, this is what I think your wife needs most, a new perspective on sex. Of course, it's just my experience but I was once a TBM wife who was rather prudish about sex and though I did often enjoy it more often than not it felt more like a chore because I didn't really understand sex nor male sexuality. Now that I do (and I'm still learning), I actually like sex.

I hope this helps. I really really hope that you can work things out with your wife. It sounds like a marriage that is well worth saving and you would save yourselves and your children unimaginable heartbreak. Best of luck to you and your wife.

Thank you for the advice. Perhaps some day we will get to the point where I can suggest reading these things to her. At this point it will just threaten her and make things worse.

FYI, There is something to the TBM part making things harder and she recognizes it. However, she's pretty much completely past any hang ups of sex being bad. It's more that anything other than pretty basic sex is bad or dirty. Also that reading or learning about sex other than from a general authority or TBM counselor is pretty much like porn.

This may sound weird, but part of "taking my power back and owning it" in my Exit Process from Mormonism and creating a whole New World View was.... learning to not to give others permission to upset me in anyway. Upset included a large variety of emotions: hurt, anger, offended, annoyed, disappointed, unhappy, and on and on and on.


It required that I own my own power to be neutral on emotional issues that others used to try to control me. That's a big order, but it sure puts a kink in any need for a "knee jerk" reaction also! It required that I think before I spoke or acted also.



It also required that I didn't hurl insults and ultimatums and threats when I didn't get what I wanted or was frustrated.

Counseling won't change anyone's position on their beliefs, most likely, but it might offer some ideas for negotiation and understanding of the other person so it's not a personal issue.

Ronas:

When you feel connected to her, you feel the passion for her, the love, the joy of being part of her life - and you get turned on by it.

Does she get like that? Does she get turned on by being close to you?

I can't imagine she wouldn't...but it sounds like she's seriously suppressing it.

Oh...and since she's TBM, you might do a bit of a bible study on the Song of Solomon. *That* one could be adapted to an x-rated movie *real* quick!

Yes she does sometimes. But the stress in the sexual relationship seriously inhibits it. The fact that the stress inhibits it creates more stress.

Also when I feel close to her and it turns me on she is resentful of it because it just means more stress for her. This is what hurts me the most. (Especially because I know I primarily created the stress.)

Does it have to be masturbation + porn? Would she accept a compromise of giving up the porn?

I'm sure the porn makes it easier for you, just wondering if she would accept a marginal sacrifice on your part.

Not suggesting sacrificing satisfying your needs, just, you know, some token move toward common ground on your part.

Good point. We've kinda discussed that. And I've made that offer.

Problem is even if I give up porn at this point she won't believe it.

So yeah if she tells me it would help it's already on the table.

But I'm worried it could backfire. Because now she's back to thinking "if I'm not enough he's going to go back to porn." Which puts stress into the sexual relationship for her which keeps the cycle going...

One really good thing is that the porn/masturbation now being out in the open could really help things a lot. From my side I really hated hiding it from her. I really hated dreaded hurting her if she knew. So from my side a lot of the bitterness was feeling I was trapped with no alternative but to supplement and that I was hiding it - somehow feeling like I have no alternative but to supplement but it being out in the open reduces a lot of the resentment/bitterness/hurt/anger/guilt from my side.

From her side I think as humans fearing something is going to happen is often worse than just having it happen so the stress of it happening and the stress that she needed to keep it from happening contributed greatly to the overall stress in the relationship.

I guess it just really comes down to whether or not she can be OK with me being involved in masturbation and at best never knowing if I am involved in porn.

It is possible that at some point in the future we could both be at a point where I don't need to supplement, but that would mean she would have to have the stress off completely - if that were true I completely believe our sex drives could be close enough to make it work. I don't see any possible way that can happen now or anywhere in the new future.

And of course since I've lied about porn & masturbation she doesn't really trust that I'm not involved in a affair either. And never will completely. I've promised her that if I have an affair I will tell her - because it would be completely unfair to her to risk STDs without her knowledge. But frankly that promise doesn't mean much to her. I don't blame her.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2012 05:44PM by ronas.

Plus, one thing that helped Mrs. Hela adjust to my porn use (and eventually joyfully join me in it) was this line of reasoning:

Do you expect married people to sever all their social ties? Of course not. Because one person cannot fulfill all of our social needs for the rest of our lives. The same goes for intellectual, emotional and other needs. That's why people have friends outside their marriages, and aren't completely isolated with their spouse.

That also applies to sexuality, even if you don't resort to contact with an actual human outside your marriage, you will require other outlets (which woman ALSO have: what the hell do you think romance novels are, fer chrissakes?). So, it's not that "you aren't enough for me". It's that no one woman can EVER be enough for a man, AND vice versa.

Accepting that is a step on the road to maturity. We do not OWN our partners, we merely share the journey with them...

My wife could understand that I believe that. She is nowhere close to believing that is anywhere to the truth. To her masturbation and porn are very grave sins. For one - direct quote "By participating in porn you are destroying other women's lives. Those women are someone's daughters."

Here's an example of how far away we are from that line of thinking being possible:

A few years ago when the cycle of stress wasn't quite as bad we were talking a little about fantasies - something we have almost never done.


I mentioned that I wasn't asking her to do it, but that watching her masturbate would be a turn on. She was very exasperated and angry at me that I could think something that is so evil could be exciting. She was probably mad at me about it for 3 months. I was probably mad that she was mad about it for 4 months. OK maybe I'm still a little mad about it.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2012 06:00PM by ronas.

It sounds to me like the only thing holding her back is the power she gives to the bishop/church and the belief that she should not be enjoying what she is doing.

If it was me(and it was) I would lay off the sex, and work on being close to her without sex, lots of massaging and touching and holding without the sex obligation at the end. I know it will be a while before she feels that way, but let her know her comfort and joy is more important than your release.

During the same time period, talk about what is appropiate for a bishop to be involved in, not related to sex. Then make the connection that if it is not right for the bishop to be involved with your decisions about...whatever she is willing to admit the bishop should not be involved in, then make the connection to sex. In the CHI it states that bishops SHOULD NOT try and find out details about a married couples sex life. Ask her why that is? It is because it is none of their business what goes on in the sanctity of marriage. Once she makes the connection that it is none of the church's business it is a short leap to God does not care what I do with my spouse as long as we do it together.

It is a long road, but doable, and from the way you describe your relationship with your wife and what she does already, it would be well worth it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2012 04:28PM by icanseethelight.