In the aftermath of the nytimes article on Hans Mattson, one of the most common TBM comments seems to be "you were an area authority and you didn't already know that (fill in the blank)? Cuz I've known that like my entire life and I totally have a testimony".

The subtext of those comments is unbelievably condescending. Like you're stupid for not knowing about JS's 30+ wives, or BofA issues or whatever. Or maybe you're just lazy. So here is my question:

I went to church for three hours every Sunday. I went to seminary for all four years of high school. I went to institute in college. I went to mutual every week, and to youth conferences, and EFY. My family had FHE every. single. Monday. I read the ensigns and new eras around the house. We read our BofM together as a family every day after breakfast, even if that meant getting up at 430am. And never, NEVER, not once do I remember being told:

Anything about the multiple wives of js.

That js practiced polyandry.

That the church owned the papyri to the BofA.

That the papyri had been translated by egyptologists.

About js using a hat and a rock to translate the BofM.

About the inspiration of the prophet in regards to Mark Hoffman.

About js taking a gun with him to carthage.

About there being multiple versions of the first vision.

And then the apologists and q15 turn around and blame me for being surprised??? What, all those thousands of hours weren't enough for you? You couldn't have skipped just one lesson in tithing? Because I know all about that. (Not how it's spent of course, but I can calculate my check for 10%) TSCC keeps members in the dark as a matter of POLICY, then blame you for doubts based on new information. If everybody knows this stuff and it's not a big deal, how come the missionaries don't teach it? Why isn't it in the manuals? Why don't the q15 teach about it?

Nada.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2013 11:27PM by crom.

It's just a cult and many of us are experience these cult drones through the Comments section of the NY Times.

Idiots. Willful idiots.

They're trying to give these issues the brush off.

I think their showing has been pathetic, it's been a long time since I've interacted with a run of the mill Mormon from Utah. They might be more stupid than I remember. Same stubbornness though.

Acting surprised that "you didn't know this common knowledge" is simply a way of trying to make a person feel like an idiot and chastised. The plain truth is that they have been hiding the info by not teaching it, then telling everyone not to read anything but church manuals and the scriptures. It's not working on reflective people, curious people or people who are rightly skeptical and acquainted with proper scholarly thought.

Frankly, the only way a person can stay a member of that church is to completely compartmentalize or purposely put blinders on and think irrationally about this one thing in their life; Their religion. And they do!

Ugh, you are completely right. The other comment that really gets my panties in a twist is the "yeah JS wasn't perfect but the church brings so many good things in my life I know it must be true" (or its variant: but the church helps make me a good person so it must be true). Uh, no. The church costs you tons of money and takes 50% of your time off! The church helps keeps your kids from underage drinking and leaves them as indoctrinated misogynist bigots and you call that a fair trade? Really? It makes you wear weird underwear, decimates your dating pool and expects complete conformity... all for "nice family values"?

Yes, and not to put too fine a point on it, There were lots of Nazis who thought it was a great thing, look how well we are doing now that Hitler has rescued Germany's economy! My kids are getting plenty of patriotism, exercise and sunshine now that they're in the Hitler Youth! (Woops, I just invoked Godwin's Law there..)

Just to say that you can convince yourself that you see good in it even though the system is corrupt...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2013 12:36AM by rationalguy.

That type of comment really pisses me off.

First, Hans Mattson lives in Sweden. They probably have a MUCH more limited access to the array of information that, say, someone in Utah would have. And besides that, he may only read stuff in Swedish. I'm sure most of the books you can buy at Deseret Bookstore is only in English.

Second, why is HE to blame?!!! There OBVIOUSLY a reason he was not aware of these issues. MAYBE its because they don't teach these things in church or in "official" sources?

Third, he was most likely simply following what the church teaches; STAY AWAY FROM NON-OFFICIAL SOURCES. Just read the scriptures and church manuals. Only study what is on LDS.org. Don't do "independent" research outside church approved sources. Only read books by CURRENT prophets and apostles.

I would really like to ask these TBM's where THEY learned these things.

Hans probably reads English fine, as he speaks it quite well. He's like 90% of members, even those in higher stations. They just don't go looking. When they do, it's very upsetting. Most reasonably educated people can sort through historical info and filter the sensational from the reasonable. Detecting the real "anti-Mormon" stuff from that more likely to be true is not difficult. Actually, a good case has repeatedly been made against the church by using only it's own published sources!

It's a line that they are parroting. They have heard it before but since Dallin Fucking Oaks and Jeffery Ass Licking Holland have told them they are lies they don't actually study what they have heard. If they really "knew" they would have to change their Jesus Jammies.

I loved your rant!

Elder Mattsson is a much better person than the Mormons who are vilifying him. He is far more honest than his LDS critics.

The only time I heard ANY of those things was JS having lots of wives. My senior year in seminary. He just commented on it like it was the most normal thing in the world and I felt like I had been slapped in the face. I remember looking around the room and a few kids looked shocked.. but most of them looked zoned out any way.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2013 12:11AM by ness.

That's Blake Ostler's move, because, you know, he learned about all the historical problems when he was 17. So if you are gobsmacked by all the LDS church's lies then you only have yourself to blame because you didn't learn about it all on your own a long time ago.

These apologist guys act like the LDS church hasn't tried to control information or been active in revising and shaping and distorting for its own benefit narratives about its history. They are unbelievable.

Hey, the Lion King ate gazelles and crapped out furry turds, but Disney wasn't going to put THAT in the movie.

You just have to know these things, right? And it's your fault if you don't, but OTOH the cartoon is so much more pleasant by not including it....

I've never had a bishop or Stake president that came across as humble, or as reasonable as Hans Mattsson.

He seems like the kind of person you could sit down and talk about anything and he would look into it if he didn't know the answers. He wouldn't make you feel like the scum of the earth and your eternal salvation was in trouble because you had some questions.

The Mormon leadership could learn a lot from him. However, they are way too arrogant and controlling to consider that someone else just might have a better idea than them.

The one thing I can't shake off, that i'm furious about, is the raids that the Mormon uppity ups did after this question fireside. What a bunch of arrogant asses to go door to door and demand that members with questions either get out, or get thrown out. If they did this in every ward there wouldn't be too many Mormons left. What a bunch of bullies they are. If there is a God, those men should all be trembling at the very thought of dying.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2013 01:44AM by Mia.

I had a Sunday school teacher who was a convert who told our class about the stone in the hat BoM. She was disfellowshipped for it. Oh No! They should have made it clearer back in those days what to tell and what not to tell. Sometimes milk and meat get mixed up.

Them:
"Cuz I've known that like my entire life and I totally have a testimony".

You:
"In other words, despite the horrendous history and patent falsehood of the whole thing, you agreed to be told what to do, what to wear, who to love and to hand over your hard earned money so that they can perpetual their bad-assery? You should be ashamed."

The more buzz and comments those articles create the more publicity the subject will get the more articles journalists will want to submit.
My favorite are the Mormon comments where they claim not to be a believer but how impressed they are with Mormons and their family values. "Oh I don't have much use for religion but I sure think those Mormons are awesome".