Part 1 of 2

INTRODUCTION

Forget the personal "near-death experiences" or other
"beyond=-the-veil" encounters that you may claim have been part of your life outside the LDS faith. According to Mormonism, while sincerely held, they're lacking in critical areas salvational substance. To those who think that their non-Mormon encounters with the spirits of the dead are unique and true, the Mormon Church has news for you: You're wrong. Bow your yead and say, "yes."

Let us count the ways in which Mormons declare you are out of touch with the "real" spirit world.
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--Mormon Dealing-with-the-Dead "Eternal Truth" #I

According to "God-approved" LDS doctrine, the Lord's One and Only True Church on the Face of the Earth (that would be the Mormon one) is guided by bonus gifts of heaven-sent revelation not enjoyed by those trapped in the "false" religions. This special conduit from God to his officially designated true-church Mormon flock includes doctrines of the dead that deal with essential subjects.
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--Mormon Dealing-with-the-Dead "Eternal Truth" #II

Here's a list of the dead-to-rights "truth" where the Mormon Church claims that it has essentials eternals that you don't

(Might want to take notes, since your forever place in space depends on it):

a. Visits from the spirits of the dead;

b. Time travel among the spirits of the dead;

c. Living among the spirits of the dead;

d. Interactions with the spirits of the dead;

e. Special communication channels between the living and the spirits of dead; and

f. Identical identifiers shared by the world of the living and the world of the spirits of the dead.
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--Mormon Dealing-with-the-Dead "Eternal Truth" #III

If your an ex-Mo who has your own encounters with the spirits of the dead, the Mormons are here to share the details of you have missed.

"Life After Death: Six Insights into the Spirit World
by Brent L. Top
"LDS Living"

http://www.ldsliving.com/Life-After-Death-6-Insights-into-the-Spirit-World/s/77329


"In 1990, I attended the annual conference of the International Association of Near-Death Studies, held that year in Washington, DC with Robert Millet. . . . There were scientists, medical doctors, scholars from many academic disciplines, theologians and clerics from diverse faiths, and many good women and men who had experienced some sort of encounter with the spirit world and sought to make sense of it all.

"As impressive as this gathering was, what had a greater impact on me was that most of these people were generally unfamiliar with Latter-day Saint beliefs about the afterlife. It made me realize that we possess unique, profound doctrines concerning the role of the spirit that perhaps we take for granted.

"Recently I read a statement in a book published by Yale University that confirms the distinct nature of our beliefs. Said authors Colleen McDannell and Bernhard Lang:

“'While most contemporary Christian groups neglect afterlife beliefs, what happens to people after they die is crucial to LDS teachings and rituals. Heavenly theology is the result not of mere speculation, but of revelation given to past and present Church leaders. . . .

"'There has been . . . no alteration of the LDS understanding of the afterlife since its articulation by Joseph Smith. If anything, the Latter-day Saints in the 20th century have become even bolder in their assertion of the importance of their heavenly theology. . . . In the light of what they perceive as a Christian world which has given up belief in heaven, many Latter-day Saints feel even more of a responsibility to define the meaning of death and eternal life' ("Heaven: A History," New Haven: Yale University Press, 1988, 312–13).

"Here are just a few of these profound principles about the after-life that are unique to the LDS Church. . . .

"The Spirit World Is Right Here on Earth . . .

" . . . [A] important doctrine of the Restored Gospel [is that] the spirit world is right here on earth and the spirits of our departed loved ones are in reality among us. This doctrine is as comforting to the Saints as it is unique among Christian beliefs of the afterlife. Our deceased family and friends are not gone, neither are they far, far away in some distant 'heaven.' The Prophet Joseph Smith taught, 'They are not far from us, and know and understand our thoughts, feelings, and motions, and are often pained therewith.'

". . . [I]t is the unique doctrine of salvation for the dead that really gives personal meaning to the doctrine of the spirit world. The teachings of the early Brethren emphasized the nearness of our family, the nearness of the spirit world, the relationship between the two realms, and the fact that spirits continue to be interested and intimately involved in the Lord’s work on both sides of the veil.


"The Spirit World Will Be Familiar

"Section 77 in the Doctrine and Covenants provides profound understanding on what the spirit world is like and how it compares to our mortal existence. The Lord told the Prophet Joseph, 'That which is spiritual [is] in the likeness of that which is temporal; and that which is temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual.' This important principle teaches us not only that we have within our earthly tabernacle an immortal spirit that generally looks like our bodies, but also that, to a large degree, the spirit world looks and is organized like the earthly world.

"Brigham Young taught, 'When you are in the spirit world, everything there will appear as natural as things now do. Spirits will be as familiar with spirits in the spirit world—will converse, behold, and exercise every variety of communication one with another as familiarly and naturally as while here in tabernacles. There, as here, all things will be natural, and you will understand them as you now understand natural things.' . . .


"Enhanced Travel

" . . . Brigham Young taught that when [we] enter into paradise we will be 'free to travel with lightning speed.' He compared this spiritual movement, including what we today call 'time travel,' to lightning or electricity (or perhaps we could add fiber optics, satellites, and internet). These, Brigham said, 'furnish a fine illustration of the ability and power of the Almighty. . . . When we pass into the spirit world we shall possess a measure of this power.' Perhaps this is what the Prophet Joseph meant when he said of described the righteous spirits as being 'enveloped in flaming fire.' Here is another example of enhanced capacities of the spirit bodies.


"Enhanced Communication

"Elder Orson Pratt spoke extensively of the mode of communication in the spirit world. There, he said, communication isn’t dependent upon sound waves and auditory nerves in our ears. Instead, we communicate mind to mind, spirit to spirit. In my research I came across many accounts of non-LDS near-death experiencers who spoke of this telepathic communication. That may sound like something out of Star Trek, but in reality the scriptures and prophets describe it as the 'spirit of revelation'--that is, God speaks to our minds and hearts (see D&C 8:2–3). That is perfect communication. . . .

"These are but of a few of the teachings of prophets and apostles about the spirit world. They are like snowflakes on the tip-top of the iceberg. The more I study and learn about the spirit world, the more it enriches my life. Our knowledge of what it will be like then and there helps us to know what we should be like here and now. Gospel insights about dying teach us a great deal about living."
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--Mormon Dealing-with-the-Dead "Eternal Truth" #III.

The Mormon Church-owned "Deseret News" informs Mormons and their fallen fellows in other faiths that while the LDS rfaith has no firm position on ghosts, it is nonetheless quite clear that most of your own alleged contacts with "ghosts" are nothing more than run-ins with demons who have managed to fooled you. For this reason, the Mormon Church warns against trying to contact spirits of the dead through the devil gadgets and activiities like Ouija boards and seances.
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--Mormon Dealing-with-the Dead "Eternal Truth" #IV

With that out of the way, the Mormon Church teaches that there are actually some good Mormon ghosts out there--that is, if you are able to recognize them through the assistance of Elohim and his duly- and divinely-designated earthly helpers.

"Are Ghosts Among Us? Many Believe in Spirits, but Churches Offer Stern Warnings"
by Lynn Arave
"Deseret News"
3 September 2010

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700062783/Are-ghosts-among-us-Many-believe-in-spirits-but-churches-offer-stern-warnings.html


"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has no firm doctrine on ghosts. However, Elder Bruce R. McConkie in 'Mormon Doctrine' speculated:

"'It is true that some mediums do make contact with spirits during séances. In most instances, however, such spirits as manifest themselves are probably the demons or devils who were cast out of heaven for rebellion. . . . Righteous spirits have nothing but contempt and pity for the attempts of mediums to make contact with them" (p. 759).

"According to lds.org: 'In a funeral sermon, the Prophet Joseph Smith declared that the spirits of righteous people who have died 'are not far from us, and know and understand our thoughts, feelings, and motions, and are often pained therewith' ("Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith,' (p. 326).

"Other latter-day prophets have made similar statements. President Ezra Taft Benson said: 'Sometimes the veil between this life and the life beyond becomes very thin. Our loved ones who have passed on are not far from us' (in "Conference Report," April 1971, p. 18; or "Ensign," June 1971, p. 33).

"President Brigham Young said: 'Where is the spirit world? It is right here' (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 376),' the LDS Church's official Web site states.

"Furthermore, the LDS Church teaches in its 'Aaronic Priesthood Manual 2' that Ouija boards, séances and spiritualism are tools of Satan and that members have been counseled to avoid them completely."

Bummer.
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--Mormon Dealing-with-the-Dead "Eternal Truth" #V

The Mormon Church, nonetheless, proclaims and promotes its officially-certified "ghost stories"--particularly those that provide the temple oasis basis for its secret practice of neural-numbing necro-dunking. It makes the case by citing the teachings of God's Mormon "prophets," as well as by requiring the recitating of tales that "reveal" actual close-encounters of spirits of the dead with designated earthlings.

In performing this "holy" obligation, the Mormon Church dismisses Bible warnings against visitations from the world of the deceased.

"Mormonism and Visitations from the Dead"
by Sharon Lindbloom
16 August 2012

http://blog.mrm.org/2012/08/mormonism-and-visitations-from-the-dead/


"People who have died are very important to members of the Mormon Church. The dead are a very important aspect of the Mormon gospel.

"The sixth President of the Church, Joseph F. Smith, taught,

“'We will not finish our work until we have saved ourselves, and then not until we shall have saved all depending upon us; for we are to become saviors upon Mount Zion, as well as Christ. We are called to this mission. The dead are not perfect without us, neither are we without them [see D&C 128:18].

"'We have a mission to perform for and in their behalf; we have a certain work to do in order to liberate those who, because of their ignorance and the unfavorable circumstances in which they were placed while here, are unprepared for eternal life; we have to open the door for them, by performing ordinances which they cannot perform for themselves, and which are essential to their release from the ‘prison-house,’ to come forth and live according to God in the spirit, and be judged according to men in the flesh [see D&C 138.-33-34].' ("Teachings of the Presidents of the Church," Joseph F. Smith, p. 410)

"Because the dead are such an integral part of Mormonism, it makes sense that Mormon children would be taught about the Church’s doctrine of baptism for the dead.

"In a Mormon Church manual produced for teaching children ages 8 through 11 ("Primary 5: Doctrine and Covenants: Church History," 1997), children learn “Joseph Smith Teaches about Baptism for the Dead” (Lesson 34, pp. 193-197. . . .

"The lesson teaches children both the historical background on the development of Mormonism’s baptism for the dead as well as the scriptures that Mormons understand to be support for the doctrine. As part of the lesson, the manual offers a few 'enrichment activities' designed to enhance the children’s grasp of the importance of baptizing the dead. Two of the offered enrichment activities focus on telling the children what most of us would call ‘ghost stories.’

"The first is about two friends, Brigitte and Carla:

"'Brigitte and Carla met in the third grade in Europe. Carla had just been baptized and wanted everyone to know she was a member of the 'only true church.' Some of Carla’s classmates made fun of her for saying this, but Brigitte became her friend.

"'Brigitte’s family was active in their own church, but they were respectful of other religions. Brigitte even went to Church activities with Carla a few times. Brigitte and Carla remained friends all through their school years. Then, at seventeen years of age, Brigitte died.

"'Two months later Carla awoke in the night to see Brigitte standing at the foot of her bed. She did not speak, and Carla wondered why she had appeared to her. The following year Brigitte visited Carla again, and she came a third time the next year.

"'Carla later moved to the United States and was married in the Salt Lake Temple. After Carla had been through the temple, Brigitte appeared to her more often. Then, a week before Carla and her husband were planning to go to the temple again, Brigitte appeared to Carla three nights in a row.

"'"On the third night Carla woke her husband and told him about Brigitte’s visits. They both felt Brigitte had been taught the gospel plan in the spirit world and had accepted it. Now she wanted to be baptized. Carla and her husband prayed and asked the Lord how to obtain the necessary records. They were inspired to contact a researcher and were able to get Brigitte’s death certificate. Carla was now able to send in Brigitte’s name to the temple so her temple work, including baptism, could be done.

"'A few weeks later Carla again awoke to see Brigitte. This time Brigitte was dressed in a white gown and was standing in a place that looked like a baptismal room. The next morning Carla received a letter from the temple telling her that the baptism for Brigitte had been done.' (See Carla Sansom, “From Beyond the Veil,” Ensign, February 1978, pp. 49–50.)


"The second enrichment story for the children is about the experience of a temple recorder in the Manti Temple:

"'Brother J. Hatten Carpenter, who served as a recorder in the Manti Temple, told of a patriarch who was watching baptisms for the dead being performed in the temple one day.

"The patriarch saw 'the spirits of those for whom they were officiating in the font by proxy. There the spirits stood awaiting their turn, and, as the Recorder called out the name of a person to be baptized for, the patriarch noticed a pleasant smile come over the face of the spirit whose name had been called, and he would leave the group of fellow spirits and pass over to the side of the Recorder. There he would watch his own baptism performed by proxy, and then with a joyful countenance would pass away [to] make room for the next favored personage who was to enjoy the same privilege.'

"'As time went on, the patriarch noticed that some of the spirits looked very sad. He realized that the people in the temple were finished with baptisms for the day. The unhappy spirits were those whose baptisms would not be performed that day.

“‘"I often think of this event," says Brother Carpenter, "for I so often sit at the font, and call off the names for the ordinances to be performed which means so much to the dead"'(quoted in Joseph Heinerman, "Temple Manifestations" [Manti, Utah: Mountain Valley Publishers, 1974], pp. 101–2; see also "The Utah Genealogical and Historical Magazine," 11 [July 1920], p. 119)".


We temporarily interrupt this Mormon propaganda blitz to bring you a dissenting opinion:

"Mormons are inspired by these stories. Unlike Christianity, which recognizes a biblical prohibition against contact with the dead (e.g., Deuteronomy 18:9-14; open in 'Logos Bible Software' (if available), Mormonism embraces it. Joseph Heinerman, whose book is [previously] quoted in the Primary 5 manual, states:

“'These temple manifestations signify God’s distinct approval of the temple labors performed by His people here upon the earth. Hopefully, these inspiring stories will edify the readers as they have me and motivate them to perform temple work more diligently on behalf of both the living and the dead.' ("Temple Manifestations," Preface)

"God says communication with the dead is a sin, yet Mormonism teaches little children to welcome necromantic contact, be inspired by it, and interpret it as God’s direction and/or approval of proxy ordinance work for the dead. Does anyone else find this troubling? ' . . . Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.' (Matthew 18:6O, pen in "Logos Bible Software" (if available)
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--Mormon Dealing-with-the-Dead "Eternal Truth" #VI

While the Mormon Church considers most contacts with the dead to be by Jesus's wicked brother Satan, it does makes significant exceptions for engaging in contact with the spirit world of the dead as provided by the examples Mormon "prophets" enthusiastically doing it themselves (with, of course, God's help):

"What Do Mormons Believe about Communication with the Dead?"

by John Demke
"Post-Mormon"
19 February 2015

https://www.quora.com/What-do-Mormons-believe-about-communication-with-the-dead


" . . . Joseph Smith claimed to have visitations from or visions of:

"God the Father

"Jesus Christ

"Moroni

"John the Baptist

"Peter

"James

"John (the Beloved)

"Adam

"Abraham

"Alvin Smith (his dead brother)

"Moses

"Elias

"Elijah

"Michael

"Gabriel

"Raphael

"Seth

"Enoch

"Noah

"Isaac

"Jacob"

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Visions_of_Joseph_Smith . . .


"Fourth prophet of the LDS Church, Wilford Woodruff, claimed to have been visited by a whole host of deceased persons while in the St. George Utah Temple.

"The Founding Fathers of the United States of America appeared twice to Wilford Woodruff in the St. George Utah Temple asking why their temple work had yet not been performed on their behalves. A striking painting depicting this singular event hangs in the temple lobby ("That We May be Redeemed," by Harold I. Hopkinson)."
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--Mormon Dealing-with-the-Dead "Eternal Truth" #VII

Under the LDS Supreme Being rules, dancing with devil spirits and ungodly ghosts is permitted in limited circumstances.

"[As one ex-Mormon return missionary relates]:

"'The LDS Church does not rule out demonic possessions or ghostly apparitions, but they believe that it only happens within the faith RARELY--much less frequently than among the Catholics or evangelicals, for example. When it is reported to happen, the modern LDS are always going to first attribute it to a case of self-delusion or a con game being worked by a charlatan. rather than a work of deception by the Devil--and when they think it falls in [that latter category], they do not like to talk about it afterwards.

"'I never saw or heard of a case ghosts or spiritism when I was a missionary, but I had roommates at BYU who said they participated in exorcisms or the casting out of spirits on their missions. Again, good Mormons do not talk about these things because they believe the Devil is best dealt with by ignoring him as much as you can."

Even contact with good spirits can be bad:

"'Privately, the LDS have always believed in communication with their dead relatives for good purposes. You can't swing a cat in any Mormon wardhouse without hitting some Brother or Sister who will tell you that while doing temple work they have felt or actually seen the spirits of the departed in the room. But these visits are always brief, comforting and they NEVER occur at the behest of the living. Mormons do not believe you can summon the spirits of the dead. If they appear to you, it's because God has allowed them to come down for some righteous purpose, not because you called them.

"'The Spiritualist movement only gathered momentum about 20 years after Mormonism's birth and when the LDS first got wind of it in the mid-1850's, they were immediately critical, counseling the LDS faithful to avoid contact with mediums, fortune-tellers and the like. Curiously, the great Arthur Conan Doyle, bridged both worlds. He believed in Spiritualism, but he also thought Mormonism was evil. The villains of his very first Holmes story, 'A Study in Scarlet,' were Mormons.

"'For more information on this fascinating comparison between Mormonism and Spiritualism, see Michael Hormer's article on the subject here: https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V27N01_183.pdf)'";
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--Mormon "Dealing-with-the-Dead "Eternal Truth" #VIII

Since Mormonism claims to be a family-oriented faith, the LDS God says its OK to have contact with dearly-departed family members, especially if you have plans to necro-dunk them.

The Mormon "prophet" Joseph Smith did just that by having a "vision" of his dead brother Alvin--13 years after Alvin had died from what the Smith family claimed was a case of medical malpractice. Alvin's unexpected check-out left him having not been baptized into any church, period.

OMG, what to do?

In Joseph Smith's "visionary" contact with his beloved bro, he saw him in the presence of Biblical prophets of old, as well as with various members of the Smith family--some of whom weren't even dead yet, Smith's "vision" was ultimately canonized as an official revelation from God, as devoutly described here:

"Alvin Smith: Reminder of the Fairness of God"
by Larry C. Porter
"Ensign"
September 1979

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwjW6pDsmoDTAhVJ4IMKHeXhCucQFgggMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.lds.org%2Fensign%2F1978%2F09%2Falvin-smith-reminder-of-the-fairness-of-god%3Flang%3Deng&usg=AFQjCNG1kmX683IJLJVjSK3NheFByCVpdg&sig2=QFqHdU2-FLWla1R3-sMFJA&bvm=bv.151325232,d.amc


"In the April 1976 General Conference, the Saints sustained the recommendation of the First Presidency and Council of the Twelve that two revelations be added to the scriptures of the Church. The action of that Conference focused attention on certain events in the early history of the Church . . . .

"The vision occurred in the Kirtland Temple as the Prophet was administering those ordinances of the endowment that had been received by that time. In this sacred setting, the Prophet was greatly moved as he saw the appearance of figures well known to himself. He recorded:

“'I saw Fathers Adam and Abraham, and my father and mother, my brother Alvin, that has long since slept, and marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set His hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.' (D&C 137:5–6.)

"Joseph did not doubt the truthfulness of the vision, but he 'marveled' at it: His parents were still alive in Kirtland, Ohio, and Alvin--who had been dead for 13 years--had never been baptized for the remission of his sins. Alvin had, in fact, died seven years before the Church was organized. . . .

"This exceptional vision was undoubtedly opened to the Prophet not only because it greatly enlarged the doctrinal understanding of the Saints, but also because it gave special solace and comfort to the grieving Smith family. The untimely death of Alvin had been a great tragedy to the household. . . .

"On November 15 of . . . 1823, Alvin [then in his mid-20's] became very ill with something his mother called 'bilious colic' and came in from work in great pain. They couldn’t find Alexander M’Intyre, their family doctor, but summoned a Dr. Greenwood, who gave Alvin a heavy dose of calomel which 'lodged in his stomach.' A total of five doctors, including Dr. M’Intyre, worked on the case but Alvin, after three days, felt that the 'calomel was still lodged . . . and that it must take his life.' . . .

"Alvin died on 19 November 1823. The family’s grief was keen. Part of their sorrow came from a feeling that his death could have been prevented if proper medical attention had been available. As we know, medical science in the early 19th century was much less developed than it now is; many practices since found to be unwise were engaged in by the doctors of the day.

"Lucy Smith, expressing the family’s emotion, said he was 'murdered by a quack physician.' William Smith, another brother, commented in his Nauvoo newspaper, 'The Wasp,' on 4 August 1842: 'We will not say that he that gives Calomel murders, nor he that takes it commits suicide, but we will say . . . that he that uses the least medicine lives longest in nine cases out of 10.'"

We interrupt this story to interject reports of necromancy and the digging up of Alvin's corpse:

"The family’s grief undoubtedly cut keener when, about a year after his death, the rumor became current that Alvin’s body had been given over for dissection. With obvious hurt and irritation, Joseph Smith, Sr., published a report 'to the Public' in the 'Palmyra Wayne Sentinel' on 29 September 1824:

“'Whereas reports have been industriously put in circulation that my son Alvin had been removed from the place of his interment and dissected which reports, every person possessed of human sensibility must know, are peculiarly calculated to harrow up the mind of a parent and deeply wound the feelings of relations--therefore, for the purpose of ascertaining the truth of such reports, I, with some of my neighbors, this morning repaired to the grave, and removing the earth, found the body which had not been disturbed.

“This method is taken for the purpose of satisfying the minds of those who may have heard the report, and of informing those who have put it in circulation, that it is earnestly requested they would desist therefrom; and that it is believed by some, that they have been stimulated more by a desire to injure the reputation of certain persons than a philanthropy for the peace and welfare of myself and friends.

"'JOSEPH SMITH [Sr.]

"'Palmyra, September 25, 1824'"
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--Mormon Dealing-with-the-Dead "Eternal Truth" #IX

Otherwise known as "I see dead people."

The inspiring account pf the birth of necro-dunking continues:

"Alvin’s death occurred six years before the restoration of the priesthood and seven years before the organization of the Church. His unbaptized condition may have weighed upon the Prophet’s mind, and the 1836 revelation of Alvin in celestial glory must have been received with great joy by the whole family. When Elijah restored the sealing powers on 3 April 1836, three months after the vision, the way was finally open for Alvin to be baptized.

"On 10 August 1840, the Prophet made the first public mention of the doctrine of baptism for the dead at the funeral of Seymour Brunson. ("History of the Church," vol 4, pp. 179 and 231),

"Joseph Smith, Sr., died the next month. On his deathbed, he earnestly requested that Alvin be baptized vicariously, and some of his last words were, 'I see Alvin.' In accordance with his father’s request, Hyrum Smith was baptized for Alvin by proxy in 1840 and again in 1841 in Nauvoo. . . .

" . . . Verification of Alvin’s goodness and the Lord’s justice for those who do not hear the Gospel on the earth came as the Prophet saw his brother in the Celestial Kingdom and received this confirming testimony from the Savior: 'I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts. (D&C 137:9),'

Other accounts of Alvin's death--described in the context of the common occult practice of the day involving conjuring up ghosts--are not as testimony-tingling as the Mormon Church version posted above. Oh, well, what the hell, let's continue:

"Alvin Smith (Brother of Joseph Smith)
from "Wikipedia"

https://en.wikipedia.or /wiki/Alvin_Smith_(brother_of_Joseph_Smith


"Alvin Smith (11 February 1798–19 November 1823) was the eldest brother of Joseph Smith, founder of the Latter-day Saint movement. Alvin took a leading role in helping the Smith family work toward paying their debts and building their home. His death at age 25 resulted in his younger brother Joseph taking more of a leading role in family affairs. A vision claimed by Joseph Smith is said to have included Alvin's presence and played a significant role in the establishment of the Mormon doctrines of redemption of those who die without a knowledge of the gospel and baptism of the dead. . . .

"On November 19, 1823, at age 25, Smith died of mercury poisoning from calomel, which had been administered to cure a case of 'bilious colic.' . . . His death occurred two months after Joseph’s first visit to the hill [Cumorah] from which [Joseph] was eventually said to have recovered the golden plates that would later be claimed as the source for the Book of Mormon.

"According to a history written by his mother, Lucy Mack Smith, as [Alvin] Smith lay dying he called each member of his family to his bedside to give them counsel. To his brother Hyrum, [Alvin] Smith said, 'I have done all I could to make our dear parents comfortable. I want you to go on and finish the house.' He urged his brother Joseph to fulfill all of the requirements to obtain the record. Smith's death had a significant effect on the family, resulting in Joseph taking more of a leadership role.

"Alvin's funeral was held at the Presbyterian church. According to an 1893 account by his brother William, 'Rev. Stockton had preached my brother's funeral sermon and intimated very strongly that he had gone to hell, for Alvin was not a church member.' William cites this as a reason that Joseph Sr. would not join the Presbyterians.

"Significance in the Mormon Doctrine of Redemption of the Dead

"[Alvin] Smith figured prominently in the establishment of the Mormon doctrine of the redemption of the dead and the later establishment of the practice of baptism for the dead. On January 21, 1836, after the completion of the Kirtland Temple, Joseph Smith claimed to have had a vision of the Celestial Kingdom. [He]stated that he saw his brother Alvin in this vision, and was surprised at his presence since he had died before the establishment of the Church and its associated doctrines. Joseph Smith stated that he then received a revelation concerning the salvation of those who die without hearing the gospel and their ability to receive the same opportunities as those who had the opportunity to hear it on earth.


"Post-death Rumors and Events: Rumors of Desecration of [Alvin] Smith's Body

"Biographer Fawn M. Brodie wrote that the Smith family 'heard a rumor that Alvin's body had been exhumed and dissected. Fearing it to be true, the elder Smith uncovered the grave on September 25, 1824 and inspected the corpse.' Following the exhumation, Joseph Smith, Sr. printed the [statement quoted above] in the local newspaper on September 29, 1824. . . .

"Historian D. Michael Quinn, in his book 'Early Mormonism and the Magical World View,' suggests that the newspaper notice published by Smith Sr. is evidence that the 'guardian,' 'spirit' or 'angel' commanded Joseph to bring a piece of Alvin's body to the hiding place of the golden plates as a requirement for seeing them. Quinn argues that when Smith did not do this, he was unable to see the plates for a second time and had to wait another year. Additionally, Quinn suggests that this information was obscured in official Church history because it implies Smith's participation in necromancy. The requirement to bring a portion of Alvin's body to view the plates originated with [Mark Hofmann's] forged 'Salamander Letter,' which was believed to be authentic at the time that Quinn wrote 'Early Mormonism and the Magical World View.'

"According to historian Richard Lyman Bushman, 'Stories circulated of a requirement to bring Alvin to the hill to get the plates; and when he died, someone else.'"
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(Continued below)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2017 08:45AM by steve benson.

Part 2 of 2

--Mormon Dealing-with-the Dead "Eternal Truth" #X

True to form, the Mormon ghost-believers' eyes remain glazed and unfazed, as they roll out their own examples of what they (along with their opponents) passionately, imaginatively and irrationally claim to be a real-time rendevous with the spirits of the dead:

"Six Amazing Accounts of Those Who’ve Visited After Death
by Delisa Hargrove
31 March 2014

https://mormonhub.com/blog/faith/belief/6-amazing-accounts-of-those-whove-visited-after-death/


"The doctrine of life after death is central to the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints . . . . Latter-day Saints, or Mormons, believe that, at death, the spirit of a person continues to live, though the body is buried in the grave. . . .

"The first president and prophet of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Joseph Smith, declared that the spirits of righteous people who have died 'are not far from us, and know and understand our thoughts, feelings, and emotions, and are often pained therewith' ("Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith," p. 326). . . .

"In his article, 'The Enabling Power and Ministering Angels,' Dr. Craig R. Frogley discussed how interaction with the dead is under divine design through the Holy Spirit:

"'We have been instructed by the Savior to pray to the Father in the name of Christ. When we receive divine inspiration or revelation it comes through the Holy Spirit. But President Kimball taught,“God does notice us, and he watches over us. But it is usually through another person that he meets our needs.”Could that other person include an ancestor on the other side? If so, when they communicate, it is under divine direction and through the Holy Spirit.'

"Accounts of visitations of deceased persons to the living demonstrate God’s reality, fulfillment of prophecy, comfort and protection to mortal man.

"1. The Angel Gabriel Visited the Virgin Mary

"One of my favorite scriptural examples of a deceased person ministering to a mortal person is the interaction of Angel Gabriel, known during his mortal life as the prophet Noah, to the virgin Mary. 'Hail thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. . . .Fear not, Mary: for thou has found favour with God. . . . For with God nothing shall be impossible' (Luke 1:28, 30, 37). The Anunciation of Christ’s birth had been prophesied for centuries! What heavenly news!


"2. Jesus Walked With Disciples to Emmaus

"There are many stories of the Savior’s appearances after His Resurrection. On the road to Emmaus, Jesus walked and talked with two friends and then broke and blessed bread with them. 'And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?' (Luke 24:30-32). Can you imagine how that would feel? To have been in the presence of the Savior without realizing it? 'Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares' (Hebrews 13:2).


"3. Jesus Fulfills Prophecy Appearing To His Other Sheep

"In a poignant Book of Mormon passage, the Savior appeared to people on the American continent,

"'And behold, the third time they did understand the voice which they heard; and it said unto them: Behold my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name—hear ye him. And it came to pass, as they understood they cast their eyes up again towards heaven; and behold, they saw a Man descending out of heaven; and he was clothed in a white robe; and he came down and stood in the midst of them; and the eyes of the whole multitude were turned upon him, and they durst not open their mouths, even one to another, and wist not what it meant, for they thought it was an angel that had appeared unto them. And it came to pass that he stretched forth his hand and spake unto the people, saying: Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world. And behold, I am the light and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning. And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words the whole multitude fell to the earth. . . .' (3 Nephi 11:6-12).

"Imagine seeing a heavenly being descending from heaven, speaking to you, and declaring Himself to be the Christ. He spent time with every person that day, healing them, teaching them, loving them. Though they were a crowd of thousands, He blessed them individually.


"4. The 'First Vision' that Began the Restoration of Christ’s Church

"In modern times, 14 year-old Joseph Smith wanted to know which church to join. While reading the New Testament, James 1:5 impacted his young heart: 'If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.' Joseph went to a nearby grove of trees and prayed to God. He saw God the Father and Jesus Christ!:

"'I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. . . . When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other--This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!' (Joseph Smith-History 1:16-17).

"Have you prayed to know that God exists? I have and have received the calm reassurance of the Holy Spirit in my mind and heart which removes doubt and fear and increases faith. I know that God the Father lives and that He and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith in answer to his prayer.


"5. Founding Fathers Appeared to Wilford Woodruff

"Wilford Woodruff, an Apostle and later president of The Church of Jesus Christ, related that many eminent men, women, and America’s Founding Fathers appeared to him requesting sacred ordinances be performed for them in the temple.

"'Every one of those men that signed the Declaration of Independence, with General Washington, called upon me as an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, in the Temple at St. George, two consecutive nights, and demanded at my hands that I should go forth and attend to the ordinances of the House of God for them. I straightway went. . . ."

"James G. Bleak also witnessed this event:

"'I was also present in the St. George Temple and witnessed the appearance of the Spirits of the Signers of the Declaration of Independence. And also the spirits of the Presidents of the U.S. up to that time. And also others, such as Martin Luther and John Wesley, who came to Wilford Woodruff. . . .'


"6. Heber J. Grant’s Life Preserved

"Eugene Cannon recorded in his journal, dated June 1, 1898, that:

"'Brother Heber J. Grant arose and bore his testimony that when he was sick one year ago and was operated upon, that prior to his being taken to the hospital that both of his wives went and consulted Dr. Richards as to his condition and Doctor told them, if a certain kind of pus was found in him there would be no hopes whatsoever for his recovery. Later his wife who is now dead appeared to one of his wives and told her that if he was taken to the hospital he would recover. He went to the hospital and the pus spoken of by Dr. Richards was found in him. He recovered and is a living testimony to the people of the power of God.'

"God is aware of our individual needs and can bless us with the inspiration to know what to do for ourselves and our families.

"God’s glorious Plan of Salvation affirms that while death separates a spirit from its body until resurrection, that person is still alive in Christ. Interactions with righteous departed souls generally occur under divine direction for communication or protection. Many Latter-day Saints have enjoyed personal interaction with their deceased loved ones for healing, comfort, and the advancement of God’s work on the earth.

"I invite you to learn for yourself that God lives and knows you. You can learn more about God’s Plan of Salvation by visiting with Mormon missionaries."


And finally, personal testimonials from average Joe and Jane TBMs who swear that they have actually visited with dead people, as part of God's One-and-Only-True-Church plan to bring the two worlds together in an effor to, well, take over the whole damn Universe, one ghost encounter at a time,

The following are accounts from a Mormon internet watering hole where they swap their stories in sincerity and seriousness:

"Visits From Deceased Persons"
on LDS Freedom Forum: Your home for discussing politics, the restored gospel of Jesus Christ and the principles of liberty"

http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=44483.


1. "I recently re-read the account of a member of the Church who was fighting in late 1944 in Holland during WW2, in which he wrote: 'I woke up one morning very early, and there was my grandmother, standing right at the head of my foxhole looking down at me. She was there alright. Just as plain as anything I saw her looking at me, and I looked at her and waived.'

"His son who co-authored the book added: 'When the mail came through, it brought word that explained what the image he had seen of his grandmother standing by his foxhole had meant. (His grandmother) died on October 22, 1944.;

"The grandmother had been living and had died in Cardston, Alberta, Canada. It is an interesting mystery to me that she could find her grandson in a foxhole in Holland. Any thoughts on how she could find him in the middle of a battle during WW2. Any thoughts how that could happen ?

"I have heard and read of people receiving visits from deceased relatives, but the distance in this case really set me to wondering how a deceased spirit could find a person from so great a distance. I sometimes envy people who receive visits from friends or relatives from the other side of the veil. But then, that could put one under more responsibility than one could handle."


2. "I have read accounts of NDEs that said that they only had to think of a person or place and they either instantly or very quickly were able to go to the person or place. This seems reasonable to me.

"My father was visited by his father when he was investigating the Church. My dad was not really investigating--my mom who was a inactive member was taking discussions to try to get back involved in the Church. My dad would listen in, but he was Lutheran, he smoked 2-3 packs per day, and really was not interested.

"He said his father's spirit visited him one night, and said that there was no one else in the family who would do the temple work for their family. My father quit smoking cold turkey and told the missionaries that he wanted to be baptized. The missionaries told him that they had decided to stop teaching our family, and would not have returned if Dad had not called them.

"Dad went on to become a bishop and member of the stake presidency. Not that I feel callings really indicate anything, but he was very faithful, very active in temple work, and during the last three years of his life when he had health issues and could not do much else, he indexed over 100,000 names."


3. "I believe that is because the veil is lifted after death, things that were once hidden become easily known. Thus for the grandmother to find her grandson is really no effort. We are told by the GA's of 'parenting beyond the veil.' This means that our loved ones are very close oftentimes, to inspire, protect and even give us impressions. Many fail to understand that the Holy Ghost is NOT always the one to do these things. He is the testifier of our Savior and His Church, that is his role. The stories of people hearing voices of warning are more than likely loved ones from the other side. I can't remember which prophet it was that told a story of himself as a youngster being warned not to do something. It was the voice of his father or grandfather that he clearly heard. (can't remember exactly!) So the term guardian angel is real; it's a beloved family member already passed on. It could be someone we remember or even someone like a g-g-grandparent that we never knew personally here on earth.

"I think that is neat for this WWII soldier to experience that. I have a cousin who lived in a distant state when my grandma died. When her father (my uncle) called to tell her of grandma's death, she told him that she already knew because my grandmother was sitting at the foot of her bed the night before."


4. "[One poster] wrote:

"' . . . The grandmother had been living and had died in Cardston, Alberta, Canada. It is an interesting mystery to me that she could find her grandson in a foxhole in Holland. Any thoughts on how she could find him in the middle of a battle during WW2. Any thoughts how that could happen?'

"I have heard and read of people receiving visits from deceased relatives, but the distance in this case really set me to wondering how a deceased spirit could find a person from so great a distance...

"Speed of thought. How it works? No idea. But if I can send you . . . a message in the blink of eye, half-way across the world (and I don't even know you), then I don't think it would be that hard for a deceased person to find a loved one."

"Merry Christmas!!"


5. "Having personally experienced visits from both the deceased and from the yet unborn, I can assure you that the love of God makes all these things not only possible but likely.

"'As a prophet reveals the truth it divides the people. [T]he worldly either want to close the mouth of the prophet, or else act as if the prophet didn’t exist, rather than repent of their sins. Popularity is never a test of truth.' --Ezra Taft Benson"


6. "My understanding is that space is akin to knowledge in the spirit plane. So the more knowledge you have, the more you can travel. If you have knowledge of someone, then you can be 'close' spiritually to them."


7. "I agree with the sentiments here about time and space meaning more to us in mortality than they do to those beyond the veil.

"My wife and I have both had experiences of visitations from deceased family.

"Governments don’t live together, people live together. With governments you don’t always get a fair word or a fair fight.

"Well I’ve come here to give you either one - Or get either one from you."


8, "My father-in-law visited his grandson within minutes of his death, even before a phone call could be made to inform them of his passing.

"He died in Nottingham, England and was in his grandson's bedroom in Mountain Home, Idaho within 5 minutes.

"This happened on 13th October 1993."


9. "The doctrine is that most of our prayers are answered by family members interference in this world. Go'd work is the immortality and eternal life of man, all the angels and departed spirits have the same task - other than teaching the dead the majority of the work is to help mortals. Even Jesus was assisted during the atonement as an angle stood by and strengthened him during the trial. It is very annoying if you pray for a blessing--some family member has to come down and interfere. I have since decided it is best to stop praying for blessings or assistance. Unfortunately salvation is a family affair and that is how the program works. It can work both ways - if we have evil ancestors, they can come down and partner with us and cause real havoc."


10. "The last couple of days I have spent time re-rereading Chapter 4 of the book 'LIFE EVERLASTING' by Duane Crowther, and find it very enlightening on the subjects of visits from deceased persons."


11. "[One poster] wrote]:

"'The doctrine is that most of our prayers are answered by family members interference in this world. Go'd work is the immortality and eternal life of man, all the angels and departed spirits have the same task - other than teaching the dead the majority of the work is to help mortals. Even Jesus was assisted during the atonement as an angle stood by and strengthened him during the trial. It is very annoying if you pray for a blessing --some family member has to come down and interfere. I have since decided it is best to stop praying for blessings or assistance. Unfortunately salvation is a family affair and that is how the program works. It can work both ways - if we have evil ancestors, they can come down and partner with us and cause real havoc.'

"Maybe your relatives are watching you and hanging on your every word so that they have permission to help you. Ask for help, it is heaven and people want to help."


12. ". . . I had had a very difficult period in my life with lots of trials, sick wife, unemployment, wayward child, depression etc. I was having great difficulty just wanting to hang on and just to make it through day by day. Throughout all of December I started feeling departed family members and angels throughout my house, but I just didn't know why. The day before my dream I expressed to my wife that I'm feeling angels in our house. I ask her if she feels the same and she said she did.

"Early in the morning I was sleeping and I was in the spirit world, and felt I was moving towards a figure. And when I got close I now recognized who it was. It was Gordon B. Hinckley. As I got right in front of me, he embraced me, and I felt a flood of love throughout my entire body. Just thinking about it brings tears to eyes. In some inexplicable way, all of the pain, all of the hurt, all of the depression I had been feeling for the last 7 years evaporated and was replaced with joy greater than the sorrow I had felt all of those years. Every bit was replaced with pure joy. It was truly an Alma the Younger experience, and testified of it in Testimony meeting two weeks later.

"Every time I see a picture of him, I can't help but break down and cry. It has changed my life forever."


13. "'For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.'

"I've heard that just as we have trials and things to overcome in this life there are things to learn and to become in the spirit world. One of the obstacles to overcome is focusing on where your spirit is.

"If as [one poster] suggests, a spirit needs only think of a place to be there, how difficult will the next existence be for people addicted to the wrong sorts of things, people or places. Consider a poor man trying to overcome an addiction to video games. He is sitting there in the spirit world trying to focus on the gospel and an image of Halo pops in his head, instantly he is transported to place where people are playing video games, but he can only watch, not play so his desire is unfulfilled. Now he must consciously choose to think of a nice peaceful place in order to escape the video game trap.

"Talk about Hell. not able to control where you exist because of what your heart dwells upon.

"Never dismiss a generous thought."


14. "[One poster] wrote:

"'He said his father's spirit visited him one night, and said that there was no one else in the family who would do the temple work for their family. My father quit smoking cold turkey and told the missionaries that he wanted to be baptized. The missionaries told him that they had decided to stop teaching our family, and would not have returned if Dad had not called them.
I do not have a personal story to tell of ancestral visitation. I have heard several such stories from various individuals. I will share one which Original_Intent brought immediately to mind.

"I had worked with a person for several years. They knew my religious beliefs and would often chide me in a somewhat playful manner. We sometimes would discuss different ideas on how my beliefs played into modern society. That person is a pretty staunch liberal and worries that any belief system that condemns personal moral behavior is a danger waiting to oppress thought and healthy freedom. A member on one side of their family, from a previous generation, had converted to the LDS faith which had caused some disharmony. The family still interacts with this part of the family but their are defined differences and problems that still arise over this perceived problem.'

"This person's Grandfather had died hating Mormons and Joe Smith. My colleague was very close with their Grandfather and would often talk about their time spent together. I considered my colleague to be borderline atheist. One day my colleague told me that some years earlier they were in bed and awoke with their Grandfather sitting on the end of their bed. They had a short interaction concluding with the Grandfather stating the reason he had come was to tell them he was wrong and that Joseph Smith was right and he wanted them to know that."


15. "Excerpts from an article in the 'Church News,' section of the 11 November 1967 'Deseret News':

“'At 86, James Elbert Whetton still remembers the time he taught the Gospel to Pancho Villa, famous Mexican Revolutionary leader.'

“'Two missionaries assigned to labor in the town of Namiquipa, located several miles from the Mormon colonies, needed supplies, so early in March, Elder Whetton and Stake Pres. Joseph T.

"'Bentley headed out in buggies loaded with food.'

“'Passing through a mountain area, the brethren were halted by armed men and taken to a guerrilla camp. Later, they were moved into a town which the guerrillas had captured and held prisoner through the night.'

“'Pres. Bentley and Elder Whetton were invited to have breakfast with the man in the checked suit and a light – complexioned gentleman. During the meal, the light – complexioned man asked many questions about the Mormons. Elder Whetton answered since Pres. Bentley did not understand Spanish.'

“'Finally, the light--complexioned man identified himself as Felipe Angeles, a noted and highly trained military officer. He introduced the Mormons to the man in the checked suit – Gen. Villa.'

“'"I always admired the Mormon people,” Villa said. “They mind their own business.

“'"General, for my part, I wish the whole republic would turn Mormon. When this revolution is settled, I am going to join this church if there is any opportunity for me to do it." Angeles declared.

“'"Why haven’t any of your people explained these things to me before?," Villa asked. “This is the first time I have known anything about your teachings. If I had known these things earlier, this would have been a different Pancho Villa. Is there any chance for a man like me to join the Mormon Church?”

“'He encouraged the brethren to continue their journey to Namiquipa and gave them a hearty “abrazo” when they parted.

“'Not long afterward, Angeles was captured and shot by the opposing forces. Villa also met a violent death in 1923 at the hands of assassins.'

“'Years passed. Pres. Bentley died and Elder Whetton became an old man. One night , Pancho Villa, whose real name was Doroteo Arango, appeared to him.

“'Do you know me”, Villa asked.

“'Si,'

"'"You told me that if there was ever any time that you could do something for me, you would do it,” the general said. “You are the only one who can help me. I want you to do my temple work.”

“'Elder Whetton wrote to the Church Offices in Salt Lake City for permission to do the work and received approval. After the genealogical sheets were prepared, Doroteo Arango was baptized by proxy on Feb 25, 1966, in the Arizona Temple. Whetton himself did the endowment work for the general a few days later. He also had the temple work done for Angeles.”

"I . . . first learned of this from a copy of a few pages of a Whetton family journal given me by a member of our ward about 25 years ago. Recorded in that journal are a couple of things that might be of added interest:

"Felipe Angeles had been trained at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, NY., and may have been serving U.S. interests as well as advising Pancho Villa’s forces.

"When Brother Whetton told his wife of his dream of Villa’s appearance, she suggested it was brought on by something he had eaten the evening before.

"Brother Whetton also travelled to Mexico to obtained permission from Pancho Villa's wife to have his temple work done."


16. "My grandmother visited me in spirit as she was dying. I was living in a different state and due to the timing was not able to visit her before she died. I never saw her, but felt her presence very strongly and heard her message to me. It was a very sweet experience."


17, "My father visited his mother when he was hit in Vietnam. the letter they got was he lost his right arm. He came to he without a left arm to let her know that he was hurt but will be "OK". For 3 weeks she argued with family and friends. they lost him for about a week - he was passed out on a gurney and did not know where he was and they where in Chicago looking for him. He showed up in Philadelphia with out a left arm. it has always been in interesting story in our family."


18. [One poster] wrote:

"' . . . I had had a very difficult period in my life with lots of trials, sick wife, unemployment, wayward child, depression etc. I was having great difficulty just wanting to hang on and just to make it through day by day. Throughout all of December I started feeling departed family members and angels throughout my house, but I just didn't know why. The day before my dream I expressed to my wife that I'm feeling angels in our house. I ask her if she feels the same and she said she did.

"'Early in the morning I was sleeping and I was in the spirit world, and felt I was moving towards a figure. And when I got close I now recognized who it was. It was Gordon B. Hinckley. As I got right in front of me, he embraced me, and I felt a flood of love throughout my entire body. Just thinking about it brings tears to eyes. In some inexplicable way, all of the pain, all of the hurt, all of the depression I had been feeling for the last 7 years evaporated and was replaced with joy greater than the sorrow I had felt all of those years. Every bit was replaced with pure joy. It was truly an Alma the Younger experience, and testified of it in Testimony meeting two weeks later.

'Every time I see a picture of him, I can't help but break down and cry. It has changed my life forever.'

"This account really bothers me."


19, "It doesn't bother me whether you believe me or not. I stand by it just as Joseph Smith did in his vision. In fact he said this about his life, and I will say approximately the same thing as Joseph said with any changes of his quotes my me to clarify what I feel to tell you."

“' . . .You don’t know me; you never knew my heart... I don’t blame any one for not believing my story. If I had not experienced what I have, I would not have believed it myself.'

"If you knew the old me and the new me, you would understand. And I'm not offended."

20. "[One poster] wrote:

"'The doctrine is that most of our prayers are answered by family members interference in this world.'

"I have heard this from several people, but I have not found anything from the Church leadership saying this is doctrine. Can you point me to a source?"


21. "[One poster] wrote:

"'The doctrine is that most of our prayers are answered by family members interference in this world.

"'I have heard this from several people, but I have not found anything from the church leadership saying this is doctrine. Can you point me to a source?'

"There are many recorded visits by family members to general authorities - we are told that when we go the spirit world that the work continues there. The blessing or cursing of Elijah is that salvation is a family affair and there needs to be a welding link between family members. Those that have a testimony of family history will acknowledge such, The understanding came to my reading many NDE and peoples accounts of visits from the spirit world of which I had one--I documented it in my post above but later deleted it. . . .

"'The first president and prophet of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Joseph Smith, declared that the spirits of righteous people who have died "are not far from us, and know and understand our thoughts, feelings, and emotions, and are often pained therewith” ("Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith," p. 326). President Ezra Taft Benson said: “Sometimes the veil between this life and the life beyond becomes very thin. Our loved ones who have passed on are not far from us” (in "Conference Report," April 1971, p. 18; or "Ensign," June 1971, p. 33).

"'In his article, 'The Enabling Power and Ministering Angels,' Dr. Craig R. Frogley discussed how interaction with the dead is under divine design through the Holy Spirit. ..

"'We have been instructed by the Savior to pray to the Father in the name of Christ. When we receive divine inspiration or revelation it comes through the Holy Spirit. But President Kimball taught,“God does notice us, and he watches over us. But it is usually through another person that he meets our needs” Could that other person include an ancestor on the other side? If so, when they communicate, it is under divine direction and through the Holy Spirit.

"'Brother Heber J. Grant arose and bore his testimony that when he was sick one year ago and was operated upon, that prior to his being taken to the hospital that both of his wives went and consulted Dr. Richards as to his condition and Doctor told them, if a certain kind of pus was found in him there would be no hopes whatsoever for his recovery. Later his wife who is now dead appeared to one of his wives and told her that if he was taken to the hospital he would recover. He went to the hospital and the pus spoken of by Dr. Richards was found in him. He recovered and is a living testimony to the people of the power of God.'"


22. " . . .Thanks for that reference. Though your quotes don't explicitly state that ancestors are assigned to answer our prayers, it is easy to infer that conclusion.

"Since joining the Church I was always taught that our primary duty in the Spirit World will be missionary work, so it's nice to think that we will be so involved with the living - and maybe even the unborn."


23. "'I hear people talk about spirit communication or visits all the time and yet you hardly ever see anything about testing the spirits. We live in the last days, which is the time of the greatest spiritual deception of all time, where we are taught in scripture and the temple on exactly how to test, yet not one brings it up on LDS forums or groups when talking about spirits or angels.'


24. "[One poster] wrote:

"'Thanks for that reference. Though your quotes don't explicitly state that ancestors are assigned to answer our prayers, it is easy to infer that conclusion.

"'Since joining the Church I was always taught that our primary duty in the Spirit World will be missionary work, so it's nice to think that we will be so involved with the living - and maybe even the unborn.'

"When I first joined the Church about a year later there was one woman who had terminal cancer and later died. A good fried of her said in a sacrament fasts meeting that she sold her just before she died that she had met her guardian angel a family member. For many years I thought that was very weird but since I have had a change of mined/understanding on the doctrine. God is not in all places and available to do all things it is also part of our training and development to assist the living once departed etc., etc. The kingdom of heaven works the same as on earth PH authority is delegated all the way down for our development and that is how the church is built up using the same celestial principles used in heaven. Unfortunately it is all about family.

"There is a lot in incidental evidence which I give no real weight to when considering doctrine. A family in our ward had a child that said grandpa use to come and play with him this went on for a while then later he saw a family photo album and identified the person who visited him. Hundred such stories the evidence stacks up and considering the basic principles of the gospel and what we know about family and salvation and how the church operates on earth and what little we know about the heavens it is only one conclusion we can draw. There are so many traditions in Africa and most cultures about ancestors etc."


25. "[One poster] wrote:

"'I hear people talk about spirit communication or visits all the time and yet you hardly ever see anything about testing the spirits. We live in the last days, which is the time of the greatest spiritual deception of all time, where we are taught in scripture and the temple on exactly how to test, yet not one brings it up on LDS forums or groups when talking about spirits or angels.'

"I think it would be easy to recognize a close family member vs someone pretending to be one. Would a false spirit visit you with a message of love and all is well?"


26. "Well, as long as the spirits talk about good things and lollipops and rainbows then we don't need to know how to test the spirits. I mean, wow, as long as the spirits look familiar and say happy things we shouldn't need the information on how to test.

"I'm sorry for being so sarcastic, but yes, spirits can dress up as anything they want. And they will start saying anything to gain our trust. I've seen several who have been deceived by what they think is a family member or good spirit. It's time to stop relying on our experiences (arm of the flesh) and to rely on what sound doctrine tells us."


27. "My Grandpa and Grandma . . . died on the same day. I was a baby when this occurred. When this unfortunate event happened, Grandpa had a heart attack and was undergoing emergency surgery at the hospital to save his life. He did not make it. Grandma saw her deceased parents at the hospital. As she told her kids this-- they told her 'Let's go home and rest, mom--You are tired and obviously upset.' Grandma was in good health. She was in her late 60s. As the family returned to her home to gather and draw strength from one another and to make funeral plans for Grandpa--Grandma went to take a rest in her bedroom.

"She never woke up and died peacefully in her sleep.

"I have read her patriarchal blessing many times. She is told clearly in her blessing that if she were to remain faithful that she could choose the time and place of her departing this earth life, and that it would occur in a twinkle of an eye.... Such was the case.

"Negative thoughts produce negative words which produces negative actions. Purge the negativity. Dwell in Christ, and reflect his bidding: Moroni 7:45-48. :)"


28. "[One poster] wrote:

"'Thanks for that reference. Though your quotes don't explicitly state that ancestors are assigned to answer our prayers, it is easy to infer that conclusion.

"'Since joining the Church I was always taught that our primary duty in the Spirit World will be missionary work, so it's nice to think that we will be so involved with the living - and maybe even the unborn.'

"Scriptures are clear that the angels are given charge over us. Many experience that is that it is often deceased family members who have charge over us. And it makes sense in the light of salvation is a family matter. Well any angel/s can be given charge over us.

"Psalms 91:11 'For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

"Luke 4:10 'For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:

"Doctrine and Covenants 109:22 And we ask thee, Holy Father, that thy servants may go forth from this house armed with thy power, and that thy name may be upon them, and thy glory be round about them, and thine angels have charge over them;

"Matthew 4:6 'And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.'

"Doctrine and Covenants 84:42 'And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels charge concerning you.'"

******


CONCLUSION

So, there you have it. Mormons make their case for dancing with the dead--or not, depending on the dead's spiritual temperament--as allowed by the one-and-only true Mormon Jesus.

As for true-believing non-Mos or ex-Mos in their own get-downs with ghosts, one would not expect them to simply throw in the towel and admit they've been hanging out with the wrong spirits from the wrong dead people. Instead, they fervently proclaim that their spottings of, and visitations with, the spirits of dead relatives, friends and family are close encounters of the "true" kind. Therefore, the rub: Both camps insist that their doctrines on the dead are the genuine eternal-joy McCoy.

"My spirit-of-the-dead encounter stories beat your spirit-of-the-dead encounter stories." On and on it goes, where it stops only the "true" ghost knows.

Whatchya gonna do when they talk to you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9We2XsVZfc



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2017 08:41AM by steve benson.

I'm much more concerned with the living than the dead.
Even if the dead can talk to us (which, of course, nobody's ever been able to show any evidence for), they can't vote, they won't patronize my business, they don't know anything I don't know, they aren't going to give me a loan if I'm short of cash.

They're dead. Let 'em be.

My invisible friend can beat up your invisible friend.

Exhausting ghostly experiences. Didn't know that about my GG grand dad, James G. Bleak. I knew he was Mr. Loony tunes (Was pres. of the St. George Temple) and proved his insanity on many occasions.

Thanks for the Time and Effort put forth to develop this post. I found it 'interesting' and I certainly would not have put the time required to research it.

Even though some complain of 'looong posts' it is easy to skip over them if one wants. I plan on reading another one you posted yesterday that I only had time to skim.