Here is an Andy Borowitz joke: "A Brit, a Jew, and a Polish guy all walk into a bar and they say, 'Holy crap! Romney's a douche!'" So why are a (likely) Catholic, a Jew, and a (likely) no religion in particular so PERSONALLY offended when they hear of Romney? Hmm -- because he's a douche? I hate to say it, but no one on the thread has brought up the possibility that when yo
Forum: Recovery Board

@Happy Heretic. When I see you out there bathing stinking dying people poor people, I'll let you know. I'm not seeing that.
Forum: Recovery Board

Hmm -- Dagney -- grace vs. works is not a Mormon vs. Christian thing. I think I've gone into this before. It is a very old -- and extremely complicated debate, the root of the Protestant split from the Catholics, and has little to do with Mormonism. Mormons come down, in my opinion, more on the side of "works" -- that is, behavior. And faith -- but definitely not grace, a concept almost
Forum: Recovery Board

@TheIrrationalShark -- I think an essay comparing the two would be interesting, but I don't know if there is such a thing, although who knows what is out there. There are good books on KJV, which has been so influential on the history of the English language, on how they developed and refined that style and its subsequent impact. I suppose by being educated in KJV, you would be able to spot t
Forum: Recovery Board

Hmm. From OP: "How does a young Mormon convert who is not familiar with either Douai-Rheims or KJV adapt to the KJV of the Book of Mormon and other scriptural writings? I am sure it must be very difficult for them to understand them and for many it must be frustrating." The "KJV" of the BoM is fake. The KJV of -- well -- KJV -- is real. Consequently, I don't know how to an
Forum: Recovery Board

This is why people need mythology. I clipped it from a very moving post at *Salon* by a mother whose son is dying of Tay-Sachs. At first I channeled all this desire into writing a book about my son, telling my own story. I worked like a crazed animal. I had always been interested in ancient biblical stories, stories that tried to make sense of the world and humanity’s place in it, and so I r
Forum: Recovery Board

I honestly don't know what "cherry picking" is supposed to mean here. Everyone has her own interpretation of something as ancient, scattered, varied, and diverse as the Bible? What? Noooooooo. Tell me you're kidding. Next thing you know you will be telling me that different people see different themes in "Hamlet." Some people think he was clearly seeing a ghost of his fath
Forum: Recovery Board

Makurosu Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > http://tracingthetribe.blogspot.com/2006/12/anger- > over-baptism-of-simon-wiesenthal.html > > The comments section is very long, but here are > some quotes: > > "To Rabbi Hier's remark that "It is sacrilegious > for the Mormon faith to desecrate memory by > suggesting that
Forum: Recovery Board

Robert Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Now that he's been canned from FARMS, will he be > sacked from BYU, too? > > I hate to see anyone lose his job, but he was so > nasty to me when I dared to question the book of > mormon. Do you remember specifically what he said, what happened, Robert? I'm collecting "Daniel Peterson Being
Forum: Recovery Board

Nice post, Tal.
Forum: Recovery Board

rationalguy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I always found Dawkins to be a decent guy. His > opinions are abrasive only to those who insist on > debating against evolution and keep wanting to > consider the existence of god. Those people can't > respect a man who has rationally and reasonably > decided that the existence of god is extrem
Forum: Recovery Board

Faith vs. works is an historical argument that pre-dates Mormonism -- by centuries. It is not a Mormons vs. Christians debate. Mormons' contribution to a rather large question seems odd to me -- it seems to be you need both. Your faith, however, needs to be in the Book of Mormon and Mormon prophets. Your "works" are to pay tithing and obey. This has not been offered as an answer --
Forum: Recovery Board

archytas Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Here is a quote from you: "I think Greek culture > is largely influenced by my favorite -- the > Sumerians." > > I believe that is what Mr xyz is referencing. Sorry. I can't get worked up about that. It's a hackneyed observation. Someone -- was it you? -- posted a long dissertation about h
Forum: Recovery Board

Gosh, and here I was hoping to read janeeliot's brilliantly sarcastic essay on how the Greeks had nothing until they heard some Sumerian myths. What a disappointment. +1 more straw man. Perhaps slaying straw men is all you've got? Are you always like this? Just. Like. The. Mormons? This is Daniel Peterson on the Net stuff. But please keep making up stuff for me to have said that I didn
Forum: Recovery Board

MJ Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Then why not just use that moral standard to live > life and not worry about the bible? > > Because the bible also seems to indicate that > incest, rape and a lot of other nasty things are > OK as well. + 1 more straw man. People who acknowledge there are good ideas in the Bible are actually saying
Forum: Recovery Board

Raptor Jesus Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > "Nothing better then the Bible for proof of a real > Jesus. > > The best part is that is what they taught me in > Sunday School as well. > > They teach you a lot of things in Sunday School > that are true, just like the Bible. > > Be proud of the source of knowledge."
Forum: Recovery Board

Human Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > janeeliot Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > Anyone who just says -- Oh look > > Jesus and Osiris -- a perfect match! Needs > their > > eyes -- or brains -- examined. There are some > > vague similarities. There are more glaring > > difference
Forum: Recovery Board

xyz Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Posted by: janeeliot ( ) > Date: May 01, 2012 01:12AM > Re: One thing that everyone here seems to fail to > take into consideration is the > > So. What's your point? Doesn't everyone know that? > The Hebrew weren't original. Or -- rather -- more > accurately -- everyone was original. The Greek
Forum: Recovery Board

So. What's your point? Doesn't everyone know that? The Hebrew weren't original. Or -- rather -- more accurately -- everyone was original. The Greek used Sumerian myths and images, but made them their own. The imagery of the New Testament is found elsewhere, but is quite distinctly New Testament. No one would seriously confuse Jesus and Osiris with his falcon head. No one who wasn't goofing up or
Forum: Recovery Board

archytas Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > janeeliotm, what about syncretism? > > Syncretism does mean something. I can point to > several examples of pagan influences on Judaism > using ancient sources. You don't think the Greek > mythos had any effect whatsoever on it's > neighboring cultures (especially the cultures it > had c
Forum: Recovery Board

The first Egyptian kings were supposed to have been fathered by the gods. The line between humans and gods was often breeched in various ways. Psyche was a human and became a goddess. The Jesus story wasn't the first exploring some territory between human and god. But, as I have said, repeating myself, I cannot for the life of me figure out what any of that has to do with the question of a histor
Forum: Recovery Board

If you are dealing with the "virgin birth," again, it is good to look at symbolism -- as -- well -- symbolism. A distinctive conception and birth is part of the hero myth, and have been ascribed to the purely mythical, as well as to the historic, hero. It is part and parcel of being a hero, and of course the Jesus story was told as a heroic myth, among other things. But one cannot concl
Forum: Recovery Board

It is also good to take into account the work of Joseph Campbell showing that there are themes in human cultures, even those that have no connection with each other. Many of the themes of NT are found in cultures around the world. That doesn't mean a damned thing, however. It certainly doesn't mean there was not a historic Jesus! What a weird leap of logic! It just means that human cultures have
Forum: Recovery Board

+ 1. Osiris has a falcon head. He is sometimes the sun, sometimes the sky and one eye is the sun and other the moon, and as the falcon flies across the sky, the sun (or moon) transverses the sky. None of this reminds me of Jesus. Not even a little. It is brilliant art, glowing myth, the best of poetry, wonderful stuff -- and not even a tiny bit like the New Testament. Whenever people say that Jes
Forum: Recovery Board

From Wiki entry on Creationism. "When scientific research produces empirical evidence and theoretical conclusions which contradict a literalist creationist interpretation of scripture, young earth creationists often reject the conclusions of the research[17] or its underlying scientific theories[18] or its methodology.[19]" From Evidence for Evolution: Is There Evidence for Evolut
Forum: Recovery Board

Timothy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ... is that they always come to focus on bona > dea's self-proclaimed expertise which diverts > attention away from the issue at hand. > > When the debate doesn't go her way, which it > usually doesn't, she either resorts to ad hominem > attacks, such as labeling those who disagree > mythici
Forum: Recovery Board

lulu Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > janeeliot Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Sorry lulu. I shouldn't have thrown you so many > > curve balls. > > (friendly chuckle) I would say you were the batter > and hitting foul balls. Thanks for patronizing me. I appreciate it. > >
Forum: Recovery Board

a&h -- Claiming Jesus lived is not "extraordinary." It needs no "extraordinary" evidence. It says that a human being lived! Since when is that "extraordinary"? Geesh.
Forum: Recovery Board

Okay, Steve. Did you go to BYU? Not insulting you. Just asking. You seem to be mooshing together the original definition of "myth," which is the only one I use, with about the third definition of "myth," which I scrupulously never use. I like to keep them straight, personally. Joseph Smith invented a preposterous story. That is not my definition of "myth." Myths
Forum: Recovery Board

I don't think Joseph Smith and Jesus have anything in common. Nor I think Shakespeare and the latest episode of "Mike and Molly" have anything in common. Actually -- there is less in common between Joseph Smith and Jesus. Shakespeare and a bad sit-com are at least both plays.
Forum: Recovery Board