rationalguy -- just as long as you are consistent. Isn't that the theme that has evolved on the thread? Just as long as you don't happen to like the Iliad (rape, slavery, etc. etc.) or for that matter, as long as you don't go to the movies much -- which also deal with death and mayhem -- sometimes in an "uplifting" or "sensitive" way (Schindler's List) and sometimes not so muc
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I've never thought that some of the supernatural stuff was real and other aspects false. I don't think so. There are different things going on in the Bible, but I don't think that is it (in my opinion). Some of the "supernatural" stuff is metaphor. I don't think anyone was raised from the dead. Just me. I think that specific story was metaphor -- and perhaps an urban legend embellishmen
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Uhm -- I've never read it as anything but literature -- so I don't know what you are talking about, kolobian. The poetry is taking too many liberties for you? You want the poetry arranged differently? I'm not advocating for taking it literally so pointing out it doesn't work literally is -- can we go with weird? It is not science. That is the point. It's poetry, myth. And if its good enough fo
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I think the "cherry picking" argument is lame. In a vast and self-contradictory work of art, to pick any one thing is "cherry picking." But it isn't. There are many messages and slants in the Bible (and -- just by the way, Hamlet, among other), so to choose one to accent is not "cherry picking." It is a way into the work. To say that those who stress "Do unto ot
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Peronally, I worry as much about getting my humanities -- such as history, social studies, and literature straight -- as I worry about getting my science straight. I don't much worry about what I think other people SHOULD believe. I just try to get in the ballpark when talking about what they do believe. Science is the best explanation of the universe and how it works. It has nothing to offer
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P.S. to rationalguy (That's a nice name! Why not live up to it?) Even Dawkins does not rant about the Bible. He easily concedes its beauty and importance. One count in his favor.
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Gee MJ -- there probably was light before our sun -- like -- uhm -- other stars? Or do you think we are the only solar system in the universe? How terribly quaint. It is a fact of the history of Western Civilization that every people, generation, and culture influenced by the Bible has interpreted it differently. Many take it as metaphor. Again -- just stating a fact like "There are other
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I think there is just a lot of overlap. In the last few days I have read some quotes that just sounded so familiar. Just substitute "Mormonism" for "conversativism" "saving souls" for "winning elections" and look at what you get. ""Conservatism is a racket for a lot of people to get very, very rich,” declares Joe Scarborough on MSNBC. “With
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What a nice piece of writing the OP is. I adore Christmas and don't mind if it is called that although of course it is really Winter Fest, as everyone knows -- hence the defensiveness of some Christians. Just a small note: Mithra was born of a rock, slaughtered a bull, and feasted in the sky with the Sun God. This does not much remind me the New Testament story. Maybe it is just me, but if I
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I don't think Santa is a myth, as I don't lump all fictions together. A novel, the Cinderalla story, and Buddha might share some traits (they are not at all times literally true), but they are also different in important, recognizable ways. I do not think "The Three Little Pigs" is a myth (nor historical nor realistic). Santa is in a different category for me than folktales (althoug
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Slate: "The Santa Lie" "...Because guess what? Not only is the Santa myth harmless, but it might actually be good for kids’ cognitive development. Fantastical stories foster a type of imaginative play that sparks creativity, social understanding and even—strange as it may sound—scientific reasoning. "First: Let go of any guilt you have about duping your kids. Santa
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I don't know about "new." Enacting the nativity has been done -- for quite a while now. Done to death, actually. In Mexico, that is the basis for a 9 day holiday called Los Pasados -- "The Inns." People enact being Mary and Joseph and looking for lodgings. They are turned away at first and then welcomed in. Feasting and merry making follows. Not a large complaint, but some
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Apparently there are some posters at RfM who are infinity better than all mankind that has gone before. Yes! If there is one thing you want to save from the wreckage of Mormonism, it is that smug superiority. Never forget – even if you leave – You. Are. Special. And I say thank god for the atheist movement that, unlike Christianity, is not ethnocentric, condescending, or self-righteous.
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Hmm. I suppose a nuanced view of Mother Theresa is too much to ask. I don't think of her as holy, and I support rational criticism of her work and methods. She accepted money from questionable sources. One can question if she was more interested in converts than aiding the dying. I highly approve of inspecting any hospice, hospital, or poor house -- and holding them all to the same standards.
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I hope MJ lists those "far better" stories and literature from the past -- although I doubt he will -- because there aren't any. Is there stuff as good? Yes. Absolutely. Is there stuff that is more to some people's liking? Of course. Is there *better*? I can't think of any. The Bible is world-class, and once you hit that there is only that whole "But I like Monet so much better tha
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I'm over believing in the Morg but have a lot of cog diss. when those who leave mormonism continue to believe in the Bible or other Christian religions. Can any of you who still believe enlighten me on your beliefs (just curious---not challenging your beliefs) Hmm. Boundaries? YOU have dear "cog diss" -- or you worry others have dear "cog diss"? (So good of you to be conc
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Gee jacob, that is so hard! I guess -- I guess -- it must just be the New Atheists! I feel so bad! I'm -- I'm UNFAIR TO THEM! Because -- when I was twelve I was asking my dad such hard questions about Jesus that he became angry. And I used to openly tell off the racist in my town. I was pleased once to learn that decades after I left Mormonism, they still mentioned my name in hushed tones and
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Dave -- your contribution! How hard can it be?
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You guys are a piece of work. What is up with accusing bona all the time of pouting? Because she challenges you? You didn't leave Mormonism to be challenged? So why bother? MJ -- you look like a fool who would rather stab a fellow gay organizer in the back rather than admit you are wrong. Wow. Great advertisement for -- what? Dave -- I'm still waiting for your gentlemanly apology for calli
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"Chris Stedman is the Assistant Chaplain and Values in Action Coordinator for the Humanist Community at Harvard University (where he was previously the inaugural Interfaith and Community Service Fellow), the Emeritus Managing Director of State of Formation at the Journal of Inter-Religious Dialogue, and the Founder of the first blog dedicated to exploring atheist-interfaith engagement, NonPr
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Dagney -- I don't want to belong to any group that considers itself beyond criticism. It is one of the reasons I left Mormonism. Only I really left. You are still there. If anyone criticizes Mormonism, Mormons say critics are from the devil. If anyone criticizes atheists -- *some* nummie atheist pout (We are so oppressed!) and some say critics have to be in league with -- God -- who is the new de
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There were other attacks in the two thread that came before this one, equally as preposterous as attacking Stedman as "a roman cathoholic posing as an Atheist ." Bona dea was attacked again and again for pouting, but I saw nothing that warranted that accusation. On the other hand, jacob posted this about bona dea: "...your stance that "new atheism" is a rancorous cancer
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MJ. Google is your friend. Use it. And Stedman is cute! In a geeky way. But geeky is very fashionable. You can easily find out more about him. Or are you afraid you will like him -- and feel a bit of a fool? For him too, rebellion against religion is rooted in how he was treated as a gay person. Hmm. A kindred spirit. Hope I'm not making you uncomfortable.
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But that is just one of many side issues. There are so many! They are so tempting! Of course the real, obvious double standard is that religons are to be criticized, but atheists never can be. No matter how destructive -- or how identical to religions -- they become. That is the only double standard here. In fact religions can only be criticized -- no one can say anything good about any relig
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Let's start there -- it is as good a place as any in this morass of gooey, molassesly -- and typical RfM -- thinking. On another thread Dave the Atheist posted: "Ah yes. Yet another hit piece by the infamous religious troll Chris Steadman. He has been refuted on many occasions. Leave it to you to post his dishonest toxic crap." Later Dave posted: "Chris Steadman is
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I just wanted to mention to poor, ill-informed MJ that Unitarians' motto about sex is "Just Say Know." They teach sex education -- tirelessly. The congregation to which I belong has had a transexual pastor. Our chapel on Sunday morning is gayer than the closest coffee house. They have done more for women's reproductive rights than you ever will. Isn't hating one religion for somethi
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Dawkins himself is go obviously and ironically satisfied with not understanding religion that I think this sentence goes in what Ms. magazine called the "No Comment" section. It speaks to its own shortcomings. No one need point them out. The idea that religion is a "man-made virus” is -- very kindest phrase -- an untested hypothesis for which no evidence has ever been offered.
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I think the "God of the Gaps" theory is just a new way to insult cultures other than our own. Feeling a hole in our smug superiority at being "Christians" -- and therefore above all those other lesser, "heathen" cultures that came before us -- or a bigger hole in our superiority at being Mormons and therefore above everyone else period, we quickly raced to fill it. I
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Hmm. I think the Mormon Church's racist past -- and present -- is complex, and they have by no means left it entirely behind. But I am a little puzzled by some of the responses. If it is bull that Mormons have no reason to feel unusually ashamed of their racist past, then how about all Americans? Mormons didn't invent or EXTENSIVELY practice slavery or launch a bloody war to defend it. (The
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@Dec Ra: Often pictured with a hawk's head, a solar disk, a beetle's head on a man's body, or a ram's head. He rarely looked -- like -- ya' know -- a human being. He is also pictured as a beetle, snake, cat, bull -- the list goes on and on. Historians wonder if he was associated with, related to bull worship. So there ya' go! That proves there is a lot of bull going around! Jesus: He just
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