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Subject:	How the "pro family" church charged my dad $4000 to attend my wedding. (swearing)
Date:	May 12, 2007
Author:	racer

My dad is hard working, honest, blue-collar guy. The world hasn't always been to kind to him. He found himself out of a job many times as I was a child. You could say we grew up poor. We qualified for welfare and free school lunch, but my dad had too much dignity and pride to accept the freebies. He busted his ass and made every penny count.

By the time I was in high school things were working out for my dad and he had stable work with benefits. Our lives improved, but it wasn't like we were rolling in cash. We had moved out of poverty status into the lower middle class status. Money was still tight.

I was never one of those kids who saved for a mission because honestly I never considered it until I was a SR in HS. My dad was proud when I decided to serve; I was the first in my family to serve a mission. The mission would cost $365 a month. My Dad's monthly tithing was about $365 a month. If he paid for both it would be over $700 a month and he just couldn't afford to do that.

My dad decided to skip out on tithing and fund my mish. The Bishop chastised him for this and told him tithing always came first. He should pay his tithing no matter what, and the ward would pay for my mission. My Dad had too much dignity to do that. Also, my Dad reasoned that it was sixes. He tithes $365, and the church turned around and gave him $365 back to pay for my mission. How is that any different than skipping tithing and just paying for my mission?

2 years later I arrived home, and a month after I got home, my brother left on his mission. So basically, my dad did not pay tithing for 4 yrs because he was funding missions.

About a year into my brother's mission I got engaged. I was going to be sealed in the temple. My dad's TR had lapsed, so he went to get it renewed a couple of days before the wedding. Of course, he hadn't been paying tithing for 3 years because he was funding missions. The Bishop knew this and told him he had to at least pay a years worth of back tithing before he would renew the recommend. This came to roughly $4000. My dad went out and got a loan and paid the money. I was pissed at the whole situation. My dad just said: "It was worth it to be able to attend my son's wedding." The sad thing is; in any other situation, no one would have to pay 4 g's to be able to attend their kid's wedding.

I want everyone who is teeter-tottering on whether the LDS church is for them or not to understand this story.

Forget JS marrying a bunch of teens, forget about the uneasy history of Mormonism, forget about DNA and the BOM, and the contradicting doctrines. All churches have these things in common to some degree.

The most f*cked up thing about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the way it treats it's own members and families. It claims to be pro family, but it splits up families and screws with people's lives. It makes them pay large sums of money in order to see a loved one's wedding. It takes, and takes, and takes. Whether it is your time, money, or sanity. It sucks you dry and does not give back anything of value except some pipe dream of a perfect afterlife. An afterlife which the church makes you feel is impossible to obtain, and uses this to heap unnecessary guilt upon it's members.

It's not the doctrine that makes the church a damaging cult. It's the way they screw their members over. Such as not letting a father attend his child's wedding unless he pays $4000.

Subject:	One of the best points I've ever heard...
Date:	May 12 07:02
Author:	marcus exmormonus

I think sometimes we get so caught up in the details of why the entire concoction is a lie that we forget the damage it does to our families. Nothing we do can change the facts about the church itself, but we do have the power to take back our lives and relationships with those we love.

Subject:

I hope your father says that the bishop can pay for the final 11 months of the mission (nt)

Subject:

This happened back in 1999, No my dad did not make the church pay the remaining 11 months. He paid them. n/t

Subject:	Re: How the "pro family" church charged my dad $4000 to attend my wedding. (swearing)
Date:	May 12 08:51
Author:	lightfingerlouie

What a sad and pathetic story.

I read the accounts of Brigham Young screwing the Utah Mormons out of money, and then I read this. Nothing has changed. No other organization can take like the church. And they do NOTHING for anyone.

Subject:	Amen!!!! Just like they screw the handicapped out of their disability money, widows out of their pensions......
Date:	May 12 09:30
Author:	Brigantia

Guilt the dying into buying 'new' temple garments so they don't die in the ones cut by hospital staff to fit peg feeds and syringe drivers. Just like they try and guilt the same poor sad souls into bequeathing their property to the cult, at the expense of both mormon and non-mormon family members and on and on.....

Watching them do this to our mother planted the seeds for our exit.

I don't swear but there are some powerful Anglo Saxon words on the tip of my fingers/tongue right now.

The mormon cult is its own worst enemy.

Subject:	One of the best!
Date:	May 12 09:29
Author:	Mo_no_Mo

That has got to be the strongest arguments for leaving the cult I have heard in a long time....Very well put racer!

Subject:	My father-in-law wouldn't pay.
Date:	May 12 10:14
Author:	Sam

So, he and my mother-in-law sat downstairs in the lobby of the SLC temple while their only daughter was getting married. He actually cried. The only other time my father-in-law has ever cried was when my wife's sister died. My TBM family said that this is the price they had to pay for not giving the family church enough money in donations.

Subject:

Money *before* people, that's what the mormons are all about now. How many other commencement speeches said "pay your tithing"?????!!! n/t

Subject:	Powerful story
Date:	May 12 10:16
Author:	2thdoc

I'm sitting here trying to sort out what my emotion is after reading this story and the best I can come up with is Revulsion. What better definition of a cult is there than to accept that the difference between personal unworthiness and worthiness could come down to writing out a check.

One of my life's greatest regrets, still 20 years later, is having my parents stand outside the temple while I was being married inside. It disgusts me.

Subject:	The Mormon church has changed so much
Date:	May 12 11:56
Author:	Yse

especially over the last 20 years or so.

It was always built on a fraud but it seemed to have better people when I was growing up. But that was in California.

My parents say they actually noticed the change first in the early 80s but my guess is that it began during the early 70s.

By that time, at least some of the top leaders Must have realized there were serious problems with the Book of Abraham. DNA was years away.

It's a shame that they are choosing to perpetuate the deception instead of coming clean now.

Subject:	Re: How the "pro family" church charged my dad $4000 to attend my wedding. (swearing)
Date:	May 12 10:37
Author:	runner

What a powerful story! Your Father was completely right about either paying for the mission or paying the tithing. As a Father, he wanted to pay for his own child's mission, not pay tithing that goes who knows where.

If I were the Bishop, which I never will be, I'm a women and I don't believe in the stupid cult, but if I were, I would have asked him to pay tithing for that one day and signed the stupid recommend.

Subject:	You're right, runner...
Date:	May 12 12:06
Author:	2thdoc

With that reasonable, compassionate approach, you'd never make it as a bishop!

Subject:	I wish I'd had the money to attend my daughter's wedding
Date:	May 12 12:22
Author:	NoooooLihoooooma

Anyway, my daughter got married just a few years after my divorce. I had really gotten screwed in the divorce, but after asking the Bishop for help and being told that if I paid my tithing, they'd help me, I, like your dad, figured it was sixes--I could pay several hundred a month in tithing and get that much back in crappy food or I could take that money and buy my own food. I decided to go the route that left me with a little dignity--paying my own way. So when my daughter got married I hadn't paid tithing in a couple of years.

I talked to the bishop just to find out what it would take for me to get a TR. He told me that he would only make me pay 3 months of back tithing if I would keep current until the wedding (which was about 4 months off). So the price for admission to my daughter's wedding was 7 months' tithing.

I made the decision to stand outside and watch all my smug, self-righteous TBM family stick their noses up in the air and look down at me while they went in the temple with her and instead use that money to try to help her with the wedding (even though I couldn't help much). At least I had been there and knew what I WASN'T missing (like some kind of beautiful wedding ceremony or smoething). But it was still so hard to not be able to be there with her.

I appreciate your post SO much because you are right. Of all the manipulative, evil, controlling things that cult does, using your children's weddings to extort money out of you is reason enough to stay as far away from it as you can possibly get.

Subject:	The most important day of my life was spent ...
Date:	May 12 12:48
Author:	Mad As Hell

... pretending to slash my throat and disembowel myself (pre-1990) [see Mormon474] while humiliating half of my family and friends who were forbidden to see me married. Furthermore, the wedding had already been delayed for 3 months so that my in-laws could come clean with the church - and over what?

Their money and coffee, for God's sake!

Subject:	Can we say "EXTORTION" boys and girls ? ...
Date:	May 12 13:03
Author:	Skunk Puppet

That is exactly what the asshole bishop did. Pulled powerful emotional and religious strings to extort money out of your father. Pure and simple.

Subject:	I have already missed three of my kids' weddings because I am "unworthy" for not paying up. And,
Date:	May 12 13:09
Author:	Bob

as far as I'm concerned, the Mormon church can go to hell.

Oh...wait a minute. It already IS hell.

Best Wishes!!

Subject:

Hear hear, Bob! My last daughter will "seal" this month, and I'll be at the beach. n/t

Subject:	This makes me so sad. It's the real life stuff that is the hardest to take.....
Date:	May 12 13:21
Author:	Tahoe Girl

I remember reading "Under the Banner of Heaven" last summer, and just continually crying because of what is happening to those people right now. Not just in the past, but right now. Today.

So sorry about this incident in your life, racer. May you find some peace.

The true legacy of Joseph Smith is ruining people's lives.

Subject:	Dad decided to pay the price -- one way or another, and he got the benefits, and a tax deduction!!
Date:	May 12 15:46
Author:	SusieQ#1

If he didn't want to do it, he didn't have to.
Most bishops I have spoken to about this, would never demand back tithing. That is just not done as a general rule.

But, your dad said he acquiesced willingly. It appears that he made it clear that the benefits apparently far out weighted a few bucks out of his pocket!

We do what we need to do for our children. That was his choice and from what I can tell, he certainly did not regret it.

He knew how the game was played. He knew the rules. He put his children's wishes above money! Good for him!

I would have done the same thing as a mom! I applaud his support of his children. I would hope if I made that kind of choice, it would be respected!!

Subject:	Ummm...tax deduction is not a given - particularly with low income folks
Date:	May 13 02:58
Author:	anon

Many low income people can't really itemize and in most cases it's better not to have given the money in the first place rather than give money and *possibly* get a tax deduction and not until you pay taxes the next year!

Subject:	If you itemize, and most do not because they don't know they can, it is definitely a tax deduction to give money to the LDS church.
Date:	May 13 12:10
Author:	SusieQ#1

The percent is the same: low income or high income, not the amount. It is a charitable deduction. Many folks need those and choose to give money this way.

The father in this case, determined what the amount was and willingly chose to pay it. He all ready knew he was not following policy regarding the mission money. If the mission money is made out to the LDS church that is tax deductible also.
I know. we did it. I took a job to pay for two on overlapping missions.
When we got our tax refunds, I called them TITHING REFUNDS!! Good sizable amount came back too!

Subject:	My mother(and 3 minor siblings) lost their home because she paid to attend my wedding...
Date:	May 12 19:45
Author:	Eloher

I had no idea that Mom had not paid tithing. She was a single mom and from everything I knew, she was always on top of her tithing. Well, she had a hysterectomy and missed 6 weeks of work, so beforehand, she had not paid tithing for 3 months in order to get through the 6 weeks. She never told me this of course. So, when it came time to renew her recommend, the bishop denied her because she hadn't paid tithing for 3 months. She forked over the money instead of paying her rent. She was in a lease to own option, and lost over $10000 that she had put down on the house by breaking her contract and not paying her rent. She and my 3 younger sibs ended up living with my grandparents for 6 months after that.

If I had known, I would have eloped. I wasn't looking forward to the big hoopla event that she'd planned anyway.

Subject:	Re: How the "pro family" church charged my dad $4000 to attend my wedding. (swearing)
Date:	May 12 20:34
Author:	No Moniker

This exact thing happened to a friend of mine. He had gone through several jobs that didn't work out and so was behind in his tithing. He would have had to get a loan to get current and refused. This is a guy who has paid cash for everything his whole life - never even had a car loan.

He refused and was not allowed to attend his oldest daughter's wedding. Their relationship is still strained over it, almost 15 years later.

Put another way for those who just don't get it" he was not allowed to be present at his own child's wedding because he owed the church money!!

Extortion by any other name, still stinks.

Subject:	Re: How the "pro family" church charged my dad $4000 to attend my wedding. (swearing)
Date:	May 13 00:28
Author:	BoredNow

Why didn't you just marry at some non demon church or have a civil ceremony so Dad could see without paying?

I agree though, that the church seems more interested in who pays, who pays to get into the temple, who pays to get into heaven! Silly and unnecessary.

Subject:	Re: How the "pro family" church charged my dad $4000 to attend my wedding. (swearing)
Date:	May 13 02:01
Author:	racer

You have to understand that I was a cult zombie just like my dad. At the time I wouldn't have considered a marriage outside of the temple.

Anyways, I wouldn't have had time to get married elsewhere. I did not know about the whole tithing snafu until hours before the wedding, and the money had already been paid.

Subject:	susieq said demanding back tithing is just not done as a general rule.
Date:	May 13 02:58
Author:	Sean

this just does not seem to be the story being told here.

Sounds like everybody except susieq is saying it is a general rule.

Susieq, I am curious--why did you say that?

Subject:	Talking to bishops - they said that it is not done, as a general rule. I know some, personally
Date:	May 13 12:06
Author:	SusieQ#1

who did not do it, and did not require it if me at one point either.

What we see here on RfM is often the experiences that are not the norm, or the general rule, from my experience. RfM is a small slice of Mormonism.

We are all sharing our experiences. Most of what I read here is not my experience. Some is, but most is not.

I have enough to be disgusted with regarding LDS leadership, I have shared my "story" dozens of times.

This is a story of a father who made a deliberate choice, who apparently would do it again, who did not regret it, and would do what was required as a member of the church he belonged to.
I would have done the same thing as he did to never be excluded from the family rituals.

I applaud his father. He didn't have to make that choice. Many do not.

Subject:	Let me see what the 'choice' was. Oh, yeah...
Date:	May 13 12:56
Author:	Matt

Either attend the wedding of his son, or not attend the wedding of his son.

'Choice,' Susie?

That's NOT a choice. At least not in the real world, the non-Mormon world...

13. Non-Mormon and Garments	15. Temple Divorces
19. Feel Ugly in Temple Clothing?	32. The Changing Temple
33. First Time to the Temple	42. Washing and Anointings
44. Stopped wearing garments	66. Secret or Sacred?
127 Temple Marriage Ceremony	155 New Names Given in the Temple
165 Not allowed to the Temple Wedding	169 Can Temple Ordinances be Changed?
234 Changing Rules? Temple Marriages	238 She Can't Stand The Temple
243 Temple Hype Versus Reality	285 First Time to Temple II
288. Protestant Minister Pre-1990 Endowment	293 Excluded from Children's Wedding
301 Speaking Publicly about the Temple	306 Temples are Running out of Names
331 The Temple Endowment not Changed per Apologist	339 Temple Marriage vs. Traditional
359 Canceling a Temple Sealing	366 Naked Touching in the Temple?
371 Young Women Dress up in Mother's Temple Wedding Gown	382 Excluded from Children's Mormon Temple Wedding II
474. My Mother Denies Making Motions of Slitting her Throat in the Temple Prior to 1990