Subject: Theory on why people leave the church from FAIR board
Date: May 07, 2010
Author: safado53

Just browsing the FAIR [Mormon apologetics group] board, started reading this jewel of a thread, One poster wrote "I believe that by and large vocal former members, and vocal struggling current members, lose faith because they either have lost sight of or failed to grasp the intended point of the restored gospel. They are no longer mindful of what the gospel is really supposed to be all about, and how growth in faith is divinely designed to occur, and they have consequently been distracted and lead astray by the fog and rivers of irrelevancies." ( of irrelevancies? Like the Book of Abraham? Book of Mormon archaeology? DNA? Marrying 14 year olds? Yeah, I guess those are irrelevant issues. ...


Subject: Here's how I explain it to my RM TBM wife
Date: May 07 17:31
Author: Hopi Bon!

RM - returned missionary - served a 2 year or 18 month mission for the church

How many people did you teach on your mission? What percentage of them were baptized?

Did you think all of those who didn't get baptized were lead astray by the devil, lazy, feminists, intellectuals, sexual deviants or just hard headed? When they told you that certain beliefs, doctrines or behavior by church leaders (past and present) made them realize that the church wasn't for them, did you react as violently as you have when I told you the same?

In short, there are thousands of reasons Mormons will accept for people not joining their church, but not a single acceptable reason for leaving.

How is that possible?

If you're going to proselyte and have a door for people to join through freewill, you have to have a door to leave by the reverse process.

Otherwise you're in a cult. Or the mafia.


Subject: Re: Here's how I explain it to my RM TBM wife
Date: May 07 18:48
Author: derrida

That would be enlightened and progressive of the church--just make leaving as easy as getting in was.

If I'd known then (when I converted) what I know now (trying to leave, to get my family out) I would have run, RUN, from my Mormon so-called friends who were trying to get me into the church.

Jesus H. Rockefeller: Why is the church so damn hard to leave? No wonder people are pissed off. All of a sudden it's like you're holding this fifty pound weight and if you set it down and walk away from it you lose your family and the respect of all the church people--and I could deal with the latter, but the former is tearing me apart (drink, therapy, other drugs, health issues).

Sometimes I feel like a wolf who has had to chew off part of his own leg in order to get out of the church trap. Better hobbled for life than stuck as a zombie slave in a useless and false organization.


Subject: And people of other faiths can use the same arguments right back at the Mormons...
Date: May 07 22:22
Author: Gorspel Dacktrin

JWs, Moonies, Scientologists, Catholics and a host of others could say exactly the same thing as the above-mentioned FAIR board poster.


"I believe that by and large vocal former members, and vocal struggling current members, lose faith because they either have lost sight of or failed to grasp the intended point of [Scientology / Moonyism]. They are no longer mindful of what [Scientology / Moonyism] is really supposed to be all about, and how growth in faith is divinely designed to occur, and they have consequently been distracted and lead astray by the fog and rivers of irrelevancies."

And what could Mormons really say in response to that. Probably nothing more than essentially saying: "Nuh-uh! You're just wrong and we're right, Neener, neener, neener! I can't hear you. I'm bearing my testimony now. I know, I know, I know, with every every fiber fiber of my bean... of my bean... of my bean... I still can't hear you because I'm too busy being mindful of how true everything in my Church is and how wrong everything in your church is...."


Subject: So I guess to that poster on FAIR, the truth is irrelevant n/t


Subject: Personally I think it's apologists that rely more on the fog machine...
Date: May 07 17:37
Author: badseed

It's a constantly evolving game. Which shell should we look under now?

Are the BoM, the First Vision or whether or not Joseph got anything right as a prophet unimportant all of a sudden? I don't see how. The Church can't build it's case on these items and then later claim they are unimportant when the evidence begins to cut the other way.

What the poster really is saying is that "the gospel is really supposed to be all about" the Church being true NO MATTER WHAT. Simple.


Subject: That's why I always carry a flashlight and wear a spiritual life jacket......
Date: May 07 17:39
Author: Jonny the Smoke never know when you'll be enveloped by a fog or fall into a river of irrelevancy.

The church is the source from which the river of irrevelancies flows.


Subject: Definitely. If anyone wants to see a real river of irrelevancy...
Date: May 07 22:11
Author: Gorspel Dacktrin

All they have to do is look at the LDS Church's own teachings and scriptures. Even TBMs agree that most of it is irrelevant.

Let's look at all the brown nuggets of irrelevancy floating on the LDS Church's own "River of Irrelevancy."

All the wives wedded to the polygamist Prophets of Mormonism to abide in the most sacred covenant of plural marriage revealed by God have become so irrelevant that they are not even mentioned -- not even once -- in the series of lesson manuals that the Church put out in recent years, even though those manuals were dedicated to focusing on those particular prophets and their teachings. The very sacred covenant itself has become so irrelevant that it is not even mentioned in the modern church, despite the fact that it was the central theme, doctrine and organizing principle of the Church throughout the first two generations of the Church's existence.

D&C 132 is irrelevant.

D&C 129 is irrelevant.

D&C 111 is irrelevant.

Hell, most of the D&C is irrelevant.

Brigham Young's teaching that Adam/Michael is the god that Mormons worship has become irrelevant. And, apparently, the fact that a Mormon Prophet spent his entire life not knowing God from Adam is also irrelevant.

The deleted portions of the temple ceremony have become irrelevant.

The LDS Church has become the "Church of What's Happening Now!" And the only thing that's happening now in the LDS Church is real estate investment, tithing collection and trivialities regarding shirt colors, facial hair, tatoos and earrings.


Subject: Re: Theory on why people leave the church from FAIR board
Date: May 07 19:24
Author: derrida

I've looked through the first two pages of posts (about 20 printed pages) and their whole position is basically, "The exmormons just don't get it. They've allowed themselves to lose focus because of side issues. What really matters is the Restored Gospel."

Where does one begin with these folks? Clearly the BoM is a fraud. Clearly the BoA is a fraud. That means that the "prophet" who foisted them on his own brethren is a fraud. Case closed.

I haven't even talked about the oppressive cultic aspects of the Salt Lake organization. Nor have I gone into how the church lacks traditional Christianity's holding firm to the centrality of Jesus and grace.

Former members might reject the church on A) historical grounds, b) control issues, or c) theological disagreements. There are other grounds I am sure, but those seem to me the biggest and most slam dunk.

The one idiot, mfbukowski, talks about the epistemological validity of "spiritual experience." What if someone is spiritually dissatisfied in the church? What if someone is spiritually satisfied in some other organization or church or pursuit? "Spiritual experience" is a valid way of knowing after all. That all comes back down to individual agency and because the church is authoritarian and anti-individual (in favor of salvation through the family), it has no real way to explain the plurality of spiritual experiences and whether one is more valid than the other. The church's only recourse is to endorse bigotry, subtle or not so subtle. Losing my virginity was a spiritual experience as was getting drunk the first time (and many of the times after that) as was staying at the beach overnight with friends by a bonfire.


Subject: Epistemology is the study of learning.
Date: May 08 10:53
Author: Rebeckah

Or more specifically: epistemology is the study of knowledge and justified belief.

(Which kind of makes it an impossibility as "belief" and "knowledge are two very different things.)

And then it raises other questions:

What are the necessary and sufficient conditions of knowledge? What are its sources? What is its structure, and what are its limits? As the study of justified belief, epistemology aims to answer questions such as: How we are to understand the concept of justification? What makes justified beliefs justified? Is justification internal or external to one's own mind?

In short, epistemology is a fiction designed to make "true believers" feel "knowledgeable".


Subject: And what *is* the restored gospel about? Is it more than just follow the prophet?
Date: May 07 19:33
Author: JoD3:360

Is it more than just making and keeping covenants in the temple?
Are there any answers to life's questions besides JS was a true prophet of God?
Are there any explanations to life's problems besides read scripture and endure to the end?

We have seen the evidence, and despite all the best convolutions, and despite our most sincere prayers, all that is left of the church is to be strong and keep your covenants and build that kingdom.

There is nothing more except the concept of loyalty to keep anyone in.


Subject: I was led away by a sexual pervert
Date: May 07 19:41
Author: cl2

I read this type of stuff and I just want to scream.

I really do believe--at least for my friends--that my leaving has caused them some cog dis of their own (if they didn't already have some). They all KNEW how much I believed it.


Subject: How about the relevancy of TRUTH ??????
Date: May 07 19:53
Author: Cali Sally

Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life" . In my mind, that makes TRUTH of extreme relevance in a supposed Christian religion. Actually, I see truth as the most relevant issue in any organization. If Joseph Smith was supposed to be so like Jesus, how come the truth very seldom figured into his actions? When interviewing prospective members for baptism it is required that the candidate acknowledge Joseph Smith as a prophet who received revelation from THE LORD. I couldn't imagine Jesus wanting his name used in the same sentence as Joseph Smith. My Two Cents.


Subject: Why do we leave. Easy Peasy...Because we can. =) /nt


Subject: The worst kind of man is the father who doesn't leave the church
Date: May 07 21:11
Author: Don Bagley

and so burdens his innocent little ones with the superstition and cult life style.

Want to see a conservative family? You wouldn't believe how conservative my little family is. Husband and wife, son away at college. No smokers in the house, no street drugs. Bourbon in the cupboard and cable TV. Dinner together every night. Home cooked meals.

The Mormons are the freaks--family home evening? That's every night at my place. Date night? Every night. Family values? Never stated, just practiced. 24/7 family here. We don't need a Utahn octogenarian to tell us how a family works. Even wolves understand family unity.


Subject: Very nicely put, Don
Date: May 07 23:19
Author: 3X

And I liked the irony in the summation:

"Even wolves understand family unity"

-- but the sheep don't --


Subject: I don't think it's irrelevant that the cult is a lie. If the church was true it would all stand. nt


Subject: What IS relevant is whether the "gospel" is true and lives up to it's claims...
Date: May 07 21:55
Author: Gorspel Dacktrin

If it is not, then the "restored gospel" is the thing that is irrelevant.

People who have lost their faith in Mormonism, by and large, are extremely mindful of what the gospel is really SUPPOSED to be about. That's why they've lost faith in it. They know what it's SUPPOSED to be. They have thought deeply and for a long time about what it is SUPPOSED to be--and they have compared that to what it really IS. And, as it turns out, the reality of the LDS church has proven time and time again that the gospel that it preaches is definitely not what it is SUPPOSED to be.

Even by Mormon terms (that they at least give lip service to) faith exists in conjunction with evidence. It doesn't perversely fly in the face of overwhelming evidence against it. In Mormon mythology, doubters and deniers don't have faith because they refuse to look at the evidence. But in reality, the opposite is true. Most people who lose their faith in Mormonism do so against their own wishes--and their loss of faith is precisely because they DO look at the relevant evidence and are honest enough to acknowledge what it means.


Subject: They say 'La, la, la, la' with fingers in their ears
Date: May 07 22:15
Author: Sometime poster

When people tell them the reasons why they leave the morg,. Many (not all) of the Fair people just can not accept that we have legitimate reasons.

Intellectual dishonesty is a sad trait of many of those people.


Subject: This thread is one of the most...
Date: May 07 22:55
Author: MiNO

...relevant and meaningful I've come across since discovering RfM. And, true and valid as well.

Thank you for posting it, safado53! :)


Subject: It's not that complicated
Date: May 07 23:10
Author: NormaRae

Gimme a break. We left because we wanted to have drunken orgies every weekend. How difficult can this be?


Subject: I hate the people on FAIR so much. They think I'm stupid.
Date: May 08 10:23
Author: Nona

It's so, so nasty to think people are stupid. Especially us, when we left the church because we are actually clever.

They are the ones that are stupid. I hate them so much. Mopologists have no place in out society, and they are absolutely clueless about everything.


Subject: So what *is* the Restored Gospel and how does it differ from the Gospel Gospel?
Date: May 08 10:30
Author: Uncle Max

And what bits of Mormonism does it comprise? I bet if you asked 'em, no two of them would give the same answer.


Subject: How this sounds to the real world (caution: not suitable for Santa believers)
Date: May 08 11:52
Author: alex71va

"I believe that by and large vocal former believers in Santa, and vocal struggling current believers in Santa, lose faith because they either have lost sight of or failed to grasp the intended point of the Christmas season. They are no longer mindful of what Christmas is really supposed to be all about, and how growth in belief in Santa is magically designed to occur, and they have consequently been distracted and lead astray by the fog and rivers of irrelevancies."

Those silly apologists sure know how to make me laugh.


Subject: North Pole Geography = Irrelevancy
Date: May 08 11:55
Author: alex71va

BTW when it comes to Santa .... please pay no attention to irrelevancies such as North Pole Geography. Those worldly scientists in the field of geography are missing the point ;)

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