|Subject:||3 articles about tithing in the Feb. 2010 Ensign|
|Date:||Feb 18, 2010|
|Guess they're getting desperate for money, because
they have two full articles about tithing, plus a money management article
that discusses tithing in the February 2010 issue of Ensign.
P. 7 has the Visiting Teaching message by Apostle Robert Hales. It is about managing resources and staying out of debt. He lists the five steps to financial freedom. Of course, step one is pay your tithing.
P. 68 has an article about a convert. Just after being baptized, he was given his priesthood interview. He was asked if he paid tithing, he said no. The branch president refused to grant the priesthood too him until he paid tithing. The convert went home and prayed, "Heavenly Father, if I have robbed Thee by not paying my tithing, I ask Thee to forgive me. I promise I will never again fail to pay it." He told the president that he repented and will be paying tithing in the future. He was given the priesthood.
P. 72 has an article by Dallin Oaks discussing how his poor mother paid tithing and how Joseph F. Smith's poor mother paid tithing. They both did so because they can't obtain the blessings of the Lord unless they pay an honest tithing. Conclusion, "Some people say 'I can't afford to pay tithing." Those who place their faith in the Lord's promises says, 'I can't afford not to pay tithing.'"
I wonder if they realize how bad this stuff sounds to people on the fence. The Lord is a basically a mobster who withholds blessings unless you give him money? What happened to John 3:16?
|Subject:||Years and years ago...|
|Date:||Feb 18 10:11|
|...I first encountered an "anti-Mormon" saying a
temple recommend was just a receipt for paid tithing, that you were
essentially buying your way into heaven.
Well, the Ensign article about the convert, tithing and priesthood seems to make it rather clear you DO buy your way to exaltation. No tithing, no priesthood. No priesthood, no temple. No temple, no exaltation.
|Subject:||Can't imagine one...|
|Date:||Feb 18 06:25|
|non-mo Financial Planner/etc. advising clients to always take care of their charitable donations FIRST! Doesn't make much sense...but then again, there was a time in my TBM life... these guys really are unbelievable.|
|Subject:||Then what the hell did Christ die for if|
|Date:||Feb 18 01:23|
|your eternal progression is dependent on paying the
mob, oops Mormon church.
The cult gets more brazen every year in fleecing the flock.
|Subject:||Re: Then what the hell did Christ die for if|
|Date:||Feb 18 01:35|
|The whole concept of commandments and stuff confuses
me. If Christ died for our sins, then what the hell do we need to repent
for? Sure they go off of by your works you will be judged, but for the rest
of normal Christianity, why the hell do you need to repent or do anything
with the church. Do you even need to believe in Jesus? I mean Jesus died for
everyone's sins, so what do you need to do?
Not that i am for the ramifications or in favor of this point, but still. If Jesus died for our sins past and future, then what is to stop of from sinning if Jesus has already suffered for them?
|Subject:||Re: Then what the hell did Christ die for if|
|Date:||Feb 18 02:26|
|You're making the assumption that the bible has a
consistent message through all of the gospels/letters/etc in the new
It was written by different people who all had different views. To try to gleam one consistent message thoughout would be an exercise in futility.
|Subject:||Hilarious! Only in Mormondumb would people think that ...|
|Date:||Feb 18 04:51|
|one of the most important methods for staying out of debt is to donate 10% of your income to a bunch of clowns in suits (who call themselves "General Authorities") to spend on their pet real estate projects and ask for nothing in return from them--not even a report on how your donation was used or even an indication of the total amount of donations that the clowns received from all sources.|
|Subject:||Dave Ramsey advocates tithing|
|Date:||Feb 18 09:27|
> non-mo Financial Planner/etc. advising clients to always take care of their charitable donations FIRST! Doesn't make much sense...but then again, there was a time in my tbm life... these guys really are unbelievable.
Actually, there's a quite famous financial guru who espouses exactly that: Dave Ramsey. He has a website: http://www.daveramsey.com/, he has a talk radio show that is simulcast on Fox Business Network, and he's written several books on how to get out of debt.
His advise is geared to people who've gotten in over their head with debt. To them, he encourages several things that most others don't. E.g., no credit cards at all. Ever. His website doesn't even accept credit cards. He hates student loans also. But his first piece of advise is that you should still pay your tithing.
He's written that, "if you can't live off 90% of your salary, you can't live off of 100% of your salary." Easy for him to say with his large salary.
And, as far as I know, Ramsey is not TBM.
|Subject:||Dave Ramsey definitely has some religious bias, though . . .|
|Date:||Feb 18 11:47|
|Just because someone is considered a financial expert
(by themselves or others), doesn't mean they are, or that everything they
say is right.
> Actually, there's a quite famous financial guru who espouses exactly that: Dave Ramsey. He has a website: http://www.daveramsey.com/, he has a talk radio show that is simulcast on Fox Business Network, and he's written several books on how to get out of debt.
> His advise is geared to people who've gotten in over their head with debt. To them, he encourages several things that most others don't. E.g., no credit cards at all. Ever. His website doesn't even accept credit cards. He hates student loans also. But his first piece of advise is that you should still pay your tithing.
He sounds like a Mormon on that count, but I don't think he is. I've listened to him a few times, and I think he says something about Jesus at the end of every show, which sounds more like a generic Christian than Mormon. I think it's something like "you can't fix your finances without Jesus".
I hate to break it to him, but there are plenty of financially successful people who do it without faith. And plenty of faithful Christians and Mormons who totally screw up their finances.
> He's written that, "if you can't live off 90% of your salary, you can't live off of 100% of your salary." Easy for him to say with his large salary.
What a stupid thing to say. If 100% of your salary pays all your bills, then I guess you CAN live off of it, right? And lets not forget that if that extra 10% happens to be discretionary income, it makes a HUGE difference in your standard of living. If you make $5000 a month, 10% is $500. That's a huge amount to give up for a middle-income family. That could be retirement money. That's 2 car payments. Or a huge chunk of grocery money.
> And, as far as I know, Ramsey is not TBM.
Although Ramsey does have some worthwhile things to say, he's up in the night on this one. I usually prefer the advice of Suze Orman, who recommends that you should share your money, but that you shouldn't make charitable donations that you can't afford. You've got to take care of yourself first so that YOU don't become dependent upon others.
She makes some weird statements, too, though. She believes in some kind of financial karma where if you are more generous, it'll come back to you as greater wealth. (Not sure if I explained that right).
I think I can say with full confidence that charitable giving doesn't make you rich. Look at the bankruptcy rates in Utah. Utah has one of the lowest rates of millionaires per capita last time I checked (I think it was in The Millionaire Next Door, where they showed the rates in every state).
|Subject:||Re: Dave Ramsey definitely has some religious bias, though . . .|
|Date:||Feb 18 20:57|
|Faith and finance have as much to do with each other as snow and ketchup.|
|Subject:||Re: Dave Ramsey advocates tithing|
|Date:||Feb 18 20:46|
|That makes no sense whatsoever.
10% of my income is huge. I give 10% to my retirement account, so without that, I have no savings.
10% is about what I have left over after taxes, health insurance, retirement, student loans, car loan, student loans, utilities, rent, etc. It's what I use to buy food, clothes, have fun and save for vacations. Without that 10%, I have no take home pay that isn't already spent.
I understand his aversions to credit cards, but without them, I couldn't have bought work clothes, gone home for my brother's wedding when I was in school, or bought food when I was out of work years ago.
Suze Orman is much more reasonable about credit. There is good debt and bad debt. Giving up 10% of your income to a corporation that gives you nothing in return and doesn't need is just plain foolish.
|Subject:||There have at times been effective income tax rates of up to 90% in some places...|
|Date:||Feb 18 21:43|
|I've always wondered how a devout you-gotta-pay-tithing-on-gross-income Mormon would respond to such a situation, since the result of being in the 90% bracket would mean that every penny of additional after-tax income would go straight to Salt Lake City. The devoted tithepayer wouldn't get the benefit of even a fraction of a cent.|
|Subject:||Wasn't aware fo D.R, just curious...|
|Date:||Feb 19 06:06|
|does he advocate paying charitable donations FIRST? I have no problems with giving to charities/helping individuals, but what really gets me now is that LD$ wants their/your money FIRST. That's the "counsel" that doesn't make any sense to me.|
|Subject:||Re: Wasn't aware fo D.R, just curious...|
|Date:||Feb 19 09:37|
|He's not quite as bad as the Morg, which *requires*
tithing. But he says that, if you are a tither, then you should keep
tithing, even through the tough times.
Personally, I think the idea is atrocious. As pointed out above, if someone is paying $500/month to their church, but they are over their head in debt, don't you think that $500/month could be pretty useful in paying off the debt.
Here's his web page on tithing:
Again, he's not TBM, he's Christian with an unspecified denomination.
|Subject:||Re: Hilarious! Only in Mormondumb would people think that ...|
|Date:||Feb 18 06:43|
|Santa Claus never asked for 10% and I still got everything I wanted. And I wasn't good all the time either. I paid the Mormon church 10% and got zip. Sure hope Santa doesn't read this. Just kiddin' Santa.. I was good!|
|Subject:||Why are you reading this $h*t? n/t|
|Subject:||Re: Why are you reading this $h*t? n/t|
|Date:||Feb 18 09:44|
|Just to see what silly things are in it so I can post it here.|
|Subject:||Per the profit, GBH, each of the Q15 obtain a salary...|
|Date:||Feb 18 09:40|
|comparable to that of a CEO. Other reliable sources peg the average salary of a member of the Q15 at 600K in the 1990's. [Since the Mormon church does not open its books, we only have undocumented information from individuals inside the church office building] I speculate more like 800K to a mill now. They fleece and fleece through the threat of after-life consequences, as well as current blessings being with-held. For an organization that's projected to be worth 100 Billion, with 6 Billion coming in every year from tithes - you'd think they'd jump off the "pay tithing or else" train. The only thing eternal about this cult is their greed, arrogance, and ability to fleece the guillable.|
|Subject:||Jesus wouldn't be happy about this at all|
|Date:||Feb 18 10:00|
|The LDS leaders are just like the temple money-changers of the NT...fleecing the faithful for their own gain.|
|Subject:||But it's the Lard's money!!!|
|Date:||Feb 18 10:04|
|"Religion convinced the world that there's an
invisible man in the
sky who watches everything you do. And there's 10 things he doesn't
want you to do or else you'll go to a burning place with a lake of
fire until the end of eternity. But he loves you! ...And he needs
money! He's all powerful, but he can't handle money!"
[George Carlin, on Politically Incorrect, May 29, 1997]
|Subject:||the Mormon Church put the Moneychangers back in the temple…|
|Date:||Feb 18 11:21|
|…after Christ, in his lifetime, kicked them out.
Realizing this was a major cognitive disconnect for me back when it first hit me as a TBM. There was no way I could sweep this one under the carpet.
|Subject:||The morg has shown moneychangers how to better extort :P|
|Date:||Feb 18 12:06|
|You're exactly right though - JC kicked moneychangers
out of the temple.
IF more-money-ism was a true ''restoration'' ALL donations would be sincerely voluntary.
Boy is that so NOT the case in the morg! >:P
|Subject:||Just like the mob, the same one protecting you for paying will harm you if you don't pay. nt.|
|Subject:||Good Grief!!!?? Are these so called "leaders" even living in the same world as the members?|
|Date:||Feb 18 16:01|
|Author:||curious in idaho|
|What sad about this is that my TBM parent's will now give the morg even more tithing money because of the morg's unrealistic BS articles like these in the Ensign!!!Hopefully some of the sheeple will wake up because of these articles,City Creek,real estate etc that the morg is buying lots of !!|
|Subject:||Re: Good Grief!!!?? Are these so called "leaders" even living in the same world as the members?|
|Date:||Feb 19 23:32|
|No, they work their way up thru the ranks so they can live a fine, comfortable life on the backs of the hardworking man and woman who haven't yet broken free. Their children and grandchildren receive the nicer clothes. the better education, better medical and dental while those that truly earn it go without. My children and I are living proof of it. The children grew up and out of moronism but daddy still believes he has to toe the line in order to receive his just reward of heaven and eternities of procreation and a status of superiority. I hope and pray someday he'll wise up, but the odds of that happening are nil when you know it's all just a fairytale. Fairytales don't come true, but home foreclosures, lost college diplomas, health, dental, holidays...they're for the FairUSees,not those who pay THEIR ways of hotel rooms, meals, airfare, apparel, lovely apartment(s). No wonder I'm bitter and lack trust.|
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