Subject: Mormonism creates severe hardship for many members
Date: Mar 26, 2010
Author: MK ULTRA
note: TBM = True Believing Mormon, SWK = Spencer W. Kimball a Mormon prophet from the 1970's, Benson also a Mormon prophet

Many of the things that TBMs are commanded to do create very difficult situations. The recent threads about marrying young and having too many children come to mind. The directives for mothers to not work further compounds the problem. Add on top of this the demand for ten percent of the gross from the sole income in the house and you create a recipe for disaster. Then there are the demands for many hours of church attendance each week and many more hours for various callings. The result are many thousands of TBMs who spend their entire lives in a vain attempt to deal with the mess the supposed prophets create for them.

A prime example of the destructive commandments are the following paragraphs from Benson and Kimball. Unfortunately, this terrible direction continues to be pushed onto the members.

From the Pamphlet, "To the Mothers in Zion"

"Young mothers and fathers, with all my heart I counsel you not to postpone having your children, being co-creators with our Father in heaven.

Do not use the reasoning of the world, such as, "We'll wait until we can better afford having children, until we are more secure, until John has completed his education, until he has a better paying job, until we have a larger home, until we've obtained a few of the material conveniences," and on and on.

This is the reasoning of the world and is not pleasing in the sight of God. Mothers who enjoy good health, have your children and have them early. And, husbands, always be considerate of your wives in the bearing children.

Do not curtail the number of your children for personal or selfish reasons. Material possessions, social convenience, and so-called professional advantages are nothing compared to a righteous posterity. In the eternal perspective, children--not possessions, not position, not prestige--are our greatest jewels."

""I beg of you, you who could and should be bearing and rearing a family: Wives, come home from the typewriter, the laundry, the nursing, come home from the factory, the cafe. No career approaches in importance that of wife, homemaker, mother--cooking meals, washing dishes, making beds for one's precious husband and children. Come home, wives, to your husbands. Make home a heaven for them. Come home, wives, to your children, born and unborn. Wrap the motherly cloak about you and, unembarrassed, help in a major role to create the bodies for the immortal souls who anxiously await." -Spencer W. Kimball


Subject: In other words, "The Lord commands you to breed to increase SLC tithe accounts!" n/t


Subject: Good Lord!
Date: Mar 26 03:55
Author: forestpal

>Wives, come home from the typewriter, the laundry, the nursing, come home from the factory, the cafe. No career approaches in importance that of wife, homemaker, mother--

The cult thinks women are only fit for manual labor jobs, or minor, service-type jobs.

>cooking meals, washing dishes, making beds for one's precious husband and children.

Even in the home, women are relegated to the grunt-work.

Sistahs, we is second-class citizens!


Subject: I didn't see this the 1st time I read it, but I'm not a woman either...
Date: Mar 26 14:19
Author: Steven

This is a blatant example of how the church hierarchy views women. He didn't say, "Leave the CEO board room, the operating room, the lecture hall.." etc...noooo siree. Thanks for pointing this out. I'll show it to my teen daughters tonight.


Subject: Forestpal, I gotta disagree with ya on one widdle thing....
Date: Mar 26 14:31
Author: DoxiNoMo

Nursing is NOT just a manual labor job, or a minor, service-type job! Nursing requires education- initial and continuing- and skill as well as compassion! A nurse is NOT a grunt. A nurse is a professional, just as important on the team to get you well as the doctor!

That said, I wonder... if ole prophet-poo sends all the nurses home to pop out kidlets like a Pez dispenser, who's gonna take care of the sick folks???????????????

Doxi, retired nurse.


Subject: You're right about that! I was referring to "Nursing" as a service/care-giver type job.
Date: Mar 26 15:41
Author: forestpal

I thought that the guy was not referring to the scientific, technical, highly-skilled, educated aspects of the career of nursing.

Nurses amaze me!! I knew someone might catch that slip up, but I was too intent on making my point. Sorry!


Subject: and these nut-jobs don't have any counsel when their program
Date: Mar 26 03:59
Author: charles, buddhist punk

fails. More specifically, when God's plan fails, he blames the victim who was just trying to follow these so-called gems of wisdom in the first place!

talk about crazy making!


Subject: these nut-jobs do have counsel -
Date: Mar 26 07:20
Author: JoD3:360

Bishop dooshbagge counsels us that if we are living the gospel and keeping the commandments, there is no reason why things won't work out.

It's always the same- if things aren't working out, maybe it is a test, or maybe you should reevaluate your life and see if there isn't room for improvement in your dedication to the Lord. If you are a man, you are probably hooked on porn, and if you are a woman, you probably aren't sustaining the priesthood in your home.


Subject: "Ladies! Do you aspire to be a Drudge?"
Date: Mar 26 06:03
Author: flattopSF

"Is your dream to spend every waking hour working your fingers to the bone cooking, cleaning, scrubbing, picking up after, and otherwise serving your lord and master of the house in every way? Have you felt like you had options, but none were half so appealing as the one that puts you on the home front every day of the year, blasting away at those never-ending challenges that face every, Mor[m]on Housewife? Give up your dreams of honest fulfillment outside the home and join your Sisters in Suffering as they don the armor of their rubber gloves to battle the Eternal Enemy — dust! grass stains! dirty dishes! Out, damn'd spot! out, I say!"



Subject: Re: Mormonism creates severe hardship for many members
Date: Mar 26 09:07
Author: hemily

they make it sound like they are the ones who came up with the idea of mother's staying home with the children. That's right, mormon families are the only families who ever thought up the idea of stay-at-home mothers.

I stay home, my husband travels for work and me also having a job would make having any free time ( and his..he loves motorcycles! ) near impossible. We can afford it so why not?
Before I had children, I worked. My mother would always be very critical of my "career" and of the fact that I worked towards getting promotions. We waited until we were financially stable to have children and we didn't decide until a few months after our first was born that I would stay home. No wonder my mother was so horrified by that!

I didn't have my first until I was 29, how evil and selfish of me. How evil and selfish to want to put off having children until we knew we could support them. How evil and selfish of us to have only 2 children so we would be able to not be overwhelmed, financially or emotionally.
My brother has 4 children and he has no plans to save any money whatsoever for them to go to college. He says if they want to go they can pay for it. My husband and I are almost done with both of our 2 children's college savings accounts. God, we are so selfish!


Subject: Re: Do most Mormons believe anything SWK said/wrote?
Date: Mar 26 09:19
Author: Quinlansolo

His Book Abomination Books still sells (I have one) is full of hatred. ('Miracle of Forgiveness')


Subject: Come on now... every lady's ultimate goal in life is to become an expert bed-maker. DUH!
Date: Mar 26 10:23
Author: Pumpkinseed

Okay, okay... for the past year, I have been home full time with two babies. I admit this, and I DO enjoy experiencing all of their "firsts" and all, but it can be pure depression on a stick at times. As soon as I am done nursing, I am headed back to work part time and MAINLY for my sanity.

I CANNOT imagine having a herd of kids and staying at home full-time for years and years.

"No career approaches in importance that of wife, homemaker, mother--cooking meals, washing dishes, making beds for one's precious husband and children. Come home, wives, to your husbands."



Subject: Hey I believed it!
Date: Mar 26 11:57
Author: Mormon Observer

I stayed home with all of my kids. I even expected a pat on the back for being so righteous! I lived in near poverty, but I was the stay at home mom. There were NO real jobs available in our small mormon town. I was an outsider, not related by marriage to any of them and even though I had a current TR at all times I was not considered a "good" mormon! My husband didn't have a TR and attended church regularly and we didn't pay a lot of tithing.

We ended up on church food. Yet I was NEVER once praised or thanked or congratulated for being the Mormon ideal of the Stay at home MOM!!!!!
It is only in the fictional books a mormon stay home mother gets praised for being home. ONLY THE RICH mormon mothers who stay home and raise kids get the praise! SKW didn't add that little caveat to his books.

I was so Happy to be providing a mormon home for celestial spirit children waiting to come to a 'true church' home!!!

Just wish my husband hadn't plunked us down in a dead end town. It took me years to get out of there and it has taken years to establish myself with a good work record.

Of course, both husbands deserted me and left me to raise the kids alone without financial help!!!!!! It's been so ducky for the kids to be raised by a Mother who has to tell them no, we're not buying ice cream tonight.... they can count on the fingers on ONE HAND how often they have had ice cream from the ice cream truck! At least I can get it from the store. . . .

The SKW life sure screws you up. Run from it while you can!!!!


Subject: My greatest sorrow was being deserted by my husbands.
Date: Mar 27 03:48
Author: Mormon Observer

And I could no longer be home with my kids. There is a lot my youngest ones missed out on.
And with my low salary it is very rare we get to go to the ocean, the movies, the science museum etc.

I'd love to take them to the Portland Zoo but lets see, I need gas money, new tires on the car, the time off from work, the money for the food and lodging etc. Well, it's a goal I can work for, just hope we make it there before they've all grown up. My youngest will be eleven next month.....


Subject: Been thinking since I posted my reply... some ladies LOVE homemaking,
Date: Mar 26 14:10
Author: Pumpkinseed

and they lead a fulfilled and happy life staying at home with their kids. I think it is a wonderful thing if a woman CHOOSES stay be a homemaker. On the flip side, I think it is wonderful if a woman CHOOSES to pursue a career outside of the home. I really believe that depression and desperation are far more likely to occur when a person (not just a woman) is forced or guilted into a role that does not suit their personality type. It does not benefit anyone.

Ya think the household is a happy one if mom is miserable?


Subject: I have to say it
Date: Mar 26 14:27
Author: Holy the Ghost

I don't think that there is anything wrong with being a SAHM.
But only if it's what is best for the woman and her family and it's what she wants. I think it's quite noble that some women would devote all their talents to childrearing--that's quite a sacrifice.

If it's good, it' not because SWK begs you to do it.


Subject: I also loved being a SAHM.
Date: Mar 26 16:54
Author: Rebeckah

And now I love being a stay at home grandma. I love working with the kids, feeding them healthy snacks, taking them to the park and walking the dogs. I look up science experiments for us to do at home and I am teaching them how to garden. Sewing costumes, baking, all of it is VERY fulfilling to me (although opening their young minds is the greatest joy, I think). Now my daughter in law and my daughter, on the other hand, would go stark raving mad in three months staying home with the children. Their fulfillment and joy is out in the workplace. My daughter in law enjoys service oriented professions and is looking into training for radiology or nursing. My daughter just loves being around people and being extremely physically active (ADHD). One day I rather expect to see her running her own, and undoubtedly wildly successful, business.

I'm really glad that I can be home to provide care for the kids so that both my beautiful women can pursue their job satisfaction. (Oh, and I should mention that my son has been a stay at home Dad for about 5 years. He's very nurturing but I'm trying to convince him to take it out to the workplace -- I think he'd be a great teacher. Especially in the elementary school field.)

That's the biggest problem with authoritarian religions -- they want cardboard cutout people -- not real people.


Subject: I know a family who followed this advice to
Date: Mar 26 16:09
Author: Goofy

tragic results.

She quit her job, and got pregnant in her late 30's.

The child was born premature, unhealthy, severely handicapped and they now only had the one income and insufficient (if any) insurance.

They were ruined financially and eventually got divorced.

All because of ETB's [Benson - Mormon prophet] speech and this pamphlet.

True story.


Subject: This, by the way, is one of my biggest
Date: Mar 26 16:14
Author: Googy

issues with the church.

Along with the depressing goal to be "perfect" and the guilt-tripping.

Yes, very damaging for members.


Subject: Re: Mormonism creates severe hardship for many members
Date: Mar 26 16:40
Author: Reen

(Sorry this turned into a rant!)
I was both a Mormon SAHM and a Mormon divorced single mom.

Hands down--I loved being a SAHM!!! I liked being in charge of my own life! I liked the flexibility, and having a few hours here and there of free time.

A working mom has to give most of her hours to her job, and then when she comes home, she must cram in all the hours of housework on top of everything else. Face it, the kids don't get enough of her time. Especially, I hated being away from my children when their father abandoned them, and they needed me the most.

But--let me qualify this--when I was a SAHM, I did NOT conform to the Mormon church's plan; in fact, we left the church for several years. I would have gone crazy if my only outside source of stimulation and social activity had been church meetings, RS, Homemaking Day, VT, teaching in Primary, working in the nursery, cleaning the ward house, reading the scriptures,etc. What a drab, depressing life that would have been!

Instead, I volunteered in the childrens' schools! I probably had every job, including tutor, room-mother, substitute teacher, music leader, PTA VP and Pres, Treasurer, Fund-raiser planner, and ended up being elected to the Board of Education. I believed in what I was doing! This was almost like a part-time career--yet I was with my children at school. I was also a soccer team mother and cub scout den mother (when we were active LDS). My husband was a happy man, because he did not want to or have to lift a finger around the house and yard, had a lovely dinner waiting for him every night, his laundry done, his social life planned (he liked that), and a happy wife who was ready and willing for a game of tennis, or a night out. We could afford babysitters and movies and parties, but just barely. We would go out to breakfast or lunch, because that was cheaper than dinner. Opposite to our Mormon family and friends: we pinched pennies, never paid tithing, and didn't use credit cards.

Spencer W. Kimball did not include in his drudgery list: gardening, pruning trees, yard work with the kids; painting and decorating the house; giving lovely dinner parties, gourmet cooking, having a family barbecue; taking the kids to the beach, playing soccer, surfing, water skiing, bicycling: teaching kids to swim, play tennis, play the piano; reading interesting things, helping with homework and Science Fair projects; planning all the holidays, birthdays, vacations together; taking care of pets--and more!

This is not the life SWK described!

My life has not been easy, but the only time I ever was truly depressed was when I was an active TBM, and that was only on Sundays.

I love, love, love doing all these things, even though it can all be hard work sometimes. Since my career has taken up most of my days--guess what I look forward to doing on the evenings and weekends! All those good homebody things!

I wonder if those of us who lived a busy, independent, active, community-oriented, child-marriage-family-oriented, lifestyle were on a path away from the Mormon church? Yes, we wimmin can git too big for our britches, if we're too happy, right?


Subject: Dont forget Harold B. Lee's contribution to LDS Marriage insanity
Date: Mar 27 04:27
Author: batman

Harold had a famous quip about the Idaho couple who contemplated marriage but he said all he could give her was a sage brush house, then she had a clever (STUPID MORmON) come back that boiled down to just go for it & get married. It just pissed me off to hear that Flip attitude about something so critical.

Go head & try it, try living in a sage brush house!
These bastard have ruined more lives!
Lee BTW was another post manifesto polygamist LDS prophet.
sealed to more than one wife as the earlier spouse died.

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49. Help, I am in Shock

47. The Final Straw  

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104 Loss of Individual Identity

105 Bishop Dad and Boy Scouts

107 Fast and Testimony Meeting

109 Women - 2nd Class Members

110 Lost without the Gospel

122  Why do they keep holding on?

123 Mormon Leaders define emotions

125 California Mormons 

129 Negative Impact on Children

131 Mormons don't Wear Crosses

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134 Sabbath - A day of Rest for Women?

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137 Seminary  Have a Large Family 

143 Feeling Guilty Visiting Here ( 

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156 Girls Camp "Faith Promoting" Activity 

167  Funny Testimony Meetings

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201  Cut Back on Leisure Time!

202  Mormon Grandparents

204  Satan Stories

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218  Life in Polygamy - 2003

219  Loss of Passion

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223  Confessing to the Bishop

225  Ridiculed at Sacrament Meeting

226  A Bishop's Blessing

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231  Mormon Myths on the Fly

235  Fear of Losing a Testimony

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247  Mormons - Guilt and Shame

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316 Breaking the Will of Members

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324 Selling Our One Year Supply of Food

326 Bishops Asking Sexual Questions

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Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church

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